My Life
Note: I decided to renew the post date on this one because of the number of discussions taking place.
Bruce
Until recently, this was the story of my life…
I sought love, but found rules.
I sought acceptance, but found requirement.
I sought compassion, but found demands.
I sought freedom, but found obligation.
I wanted to shed my doubts, but found them strengthened.
I wanted to shed my worries, but saw them increase.
I wanted to shed my fears, but had them nurtured.
I wanted to shed my bitterness, but saw it grow.
I hoped to find reality, but experienced illusion.
I hoped to find unity, but experienced division.
I hoped to find trust, but experienced religion.
I hoped to find peace, but experienced panic.
But the Gospel of Peace - the story of God’s incredible love - found me, and now I have…
Love
Acceptance
Compassion
Freedom
No doubts
No worries
No fears
No bitterness
Reality
Unity
Trust
and PEACE!
Thank God that He exists outside of the church!
I have no doubt these words will ring the bell of reality in a multitude of hearts. Thank God for the Gospel of Peace.
That’s absolutely beautiful! What a great picture of real, personal transformation- from the inside out. Thanks for sawing this. Peace and grace
I love this Bruce.
Since I have found this peace I feel like I am on a cloud. I feel weightless. I feel like I can approach life with confidence and love for who I am and what I want to be. My judgements towards others have diminished. I look at others now that I would have judged in the past and realize that they have a story and they are perfect in the eyes of God whether they realize it or not. Bruce, those words really do ring the bell of reality in my heart.
I am reminded as I read your post, of opposites. Many times we enter into situations willingly, expecting a certain outcome, and the exact opposite is what occurs. It is often the paradox of life. Have we the ability to see the paradoxical outcome of that situation as it is and move to a different place and allow for a different outcome? I know it took me almost 60 years to do exactly that…
I’m so glad that you have shared “your life”, with me….the life that flows from within that the demands of the church couldn’t quench. Miss you.
If you please, I’m curious as to the nature of the escape from legalism. I too have seen authoritarian and legalistic orders of worship, and pastors bent on control and authority within the church. But to what is the opposite extreme?
C.S. Lewis once wrote that “[The devil] always sends errors into the world in pairs - pairs of opposites. And he always encourages us to spend a lot of time thinking which is the worse. You see why, of course? He relies on your extra dislike of the one error to draw you gradually into the opposite one. But do not let us be fooled. We have to keep our eyes on the goal and go straight through between both errors. We have no other concern than that with either of them.”
Drifting too far towards tolerance, love and grace begins to suggest to people that maybe they are okay with God after all, maybe He’s okay with however they want to live their lives. When in fact this is not the case at all, and that, no matter how He has been represented here on earth, He is still a righteous and just God who will judge us according to our deeds, and none will survive that judgment unless he has the covering of Christ’s blood.
Nice to meet you, Dave. Thanks for stopping by. I hope you’ll visit often and join the conversation when you can.
I can’t say that I agree with you, but we don’t need to agree. Over the last few years I’ve grown distant from the idea that we must hold to a particular theology to enter relationship with God. I think he could care less what we believe about him. I can no longer imagine that His love will change based on our silly ideas about him (of course, this is my theology). Then again, isn’t reality what we say it is? Or do we dare not make that jump?
Outrageous, unconditional love is a dangerous thing. Look what happened to Jesus!
You said, “He is still a righteous and just God who will judge us according to our deeds”. Then, what did Jesus do? How is this different than the old covenant?
And you said, “none will survive that judgment unless he has the covering of Christ’s blood”. I say, Jesus received that judgement… and we HAVE the covering, all of us… no one is excluded. Now, that’s some good news right there!
I used to think much like you do, but coming to a better understanding of the Cross of Christ changed my mind. I repented of my perceptions of God, and found myself drawn into an incredible, perfect love.
We may never agree about “who God is” but my love for you remains constant… because I know that you are included in God’s glorious redemption of mankind just as much as I am, or any of us are.
One more thought… redemption is not because we come to Christ, but because He came to us. It is a finished work! All that is left for us to do is… enjoy it!
Dave,
I am perfect in the eyes of God. He does not judge me. I know this because of the spirit within me.
He is within me always leading me and guiding me knowing that I might be misguided and mislead. He knows the struggles that I will go through and he is with me through it all as he is with everyone. He doesn’t punish me.
Once I acknowledged this everything became more clear. I don’t walk through this life claiming that I am perfect and that I don’t make mistakes because I do and so does everyone else. Does it make me a sinner because I don’t believe in religion, but I believe in God? Does that mean I am headed for Hell? No. I do not believe in Hell. I do not believe in Church or religion and because of all of that I am happy. I am more kind then ever before. I am more thoughtful. I am less judgemental. I make better choices for me and for my family. I am more free to be myself. I am more confident in who I am and I am all of this because I have overcome religion and I see what Jesus did for me at the cross. I will never go to church again where I am considered a sinner and damned to hell. I don’t want wet and I am not hungry for crackers and grape juice anymore. LOL I love you Dave and that is all I need to do is love.
Peace
1 John 4:4,5
You, dear children, are from God and have overcome them, because the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. They are from the world and therefore speak from the viewpoint of the world, and the world listens to them.
I meant to put this with the scripture I quoted.
“They” are the religious people.
Hi Bruce,
You wrote:
[[Over the last few years I’ve grown distant from the idea that we must hold to a particular theology to enter relationship with God. I think he could care less what we believe about him. I can no longer imagine that His love will change based on our silly ideas about him (of course, this is my theology).]]
May I ask whence you derive these ideas of God? Do you take these ideas from the Bible?
His love does not change based on our ideas for him, but his judgment will.
[[Then again, isn’t reality what we say it is? Or do we dare not make that jump?]]
Are we going to start challenging what is and ain’t reality? If so, then I’m jumping ship pretty quickly…
[[Then, what did Jesus do? How is this different than the old covenant?]]
Our sinful deeds can only be negated by Christ’s sacrificial death. Otherwise, we’re all hell-bound. Every single one of us.
[[I say, Jesus received that judgement… and we HAVE the covering, all of us… no one is excluded. Now, that’s some good news right there!]]
So you believe Christ’s death imparted universal righteousness to everyone? Where do we find that in the Bible? What do we do with verses such as John 3:16, Romans 10:9-10, John 14:6, etc.? What is the point of the Great Commission?
[[We may never agree about “who God is” but my love for you remains constant… because I know that you are included in God’s glorious redemption of mankind just as much as I am, or any of us are.]]
The only reason I am included in God’s redemption is because I repented, accepted Christ and received His righteousness. This is the only way anyone can be saved.
[[One more thought… redemption is not because we come to Christ, but because He came to us. It is a finished work! All that is left for us to do is… enjoy it!]]
But where do we read that He came to us all?
Regards,
-Dave
That’s cool, Dave. You can believe that if you want. Makes no difference to me… but how you see God will make a big difference in your life, and everyone around you. I know. I was there. I have repented of seeing God as an angry taskmaster, ready to torment 99% of his creation at the drop of a hat. I refuse to see him that way any more… and my life is immensely better because of it. I am no longer filled with doubt, fear, worry, and guilt… always wondering if I truly measured up, and continue to measure up. I no longer worry about my fate because I have been pulled into the heart of an incredibly loving God, not at my own doing (pushing), but as he wished.
He showed himself to me on the Cross at Calvary, and I said, oh… I see now. And my great commission is to spread the word to every breathing creature who roams this earth - God loves you, no matter what. Understand it and enjoy it, or reject it, and miss the wonder… either way, you are redeemed to God, and you will be with him one day soon. It’s not your choice, but it is your destiny.
I understand fully where you’re coming from, Dave. Like I said, I was once much like you. But, God changed my heart, and showed me how amazing his Grace really was. And it was more wonderful than I could even imagine.
I don’t expect you to understand, or accept, any of this. And that’s OK. You are here for a reason, and that reason is not for me to know. But, the truth of the Gospel of Christ will always change those who hear it… maybe not now, maybe not tomorrow, but some day…
Great peace to you, my friend! May your journey be full of life, with great expectation around every corner. May you love as you are loved (unconditionally), and may you find great joy in that which you were made to be - a perfect child of the God!
Well said Bruce. I sure do love you!
Bruce,
[[how you see God will make a big difference in your life, and everyone around you. I know. I was there.]]
Of course it will. No argument here on that.
[[I have repented of seeing God as an angry taskmaster, ready to torment 99% of his creation at the drop of a hat. I refuse to see him that way any more… and my life is immensely better because of it.]]
And that’s well within the grounds of Biblical understanding of grace. For all who receive Christ, there is no more condemnation. (Romans 8:1) But suggesting this is a universal gift is far from true.
[[And my great commission is to spread the word to every breathing creature who roams this earth - God loves you, no matter what. Understand it and enjoy it, or reject it, and miss the wonder… either way, you are redeemed to God, and you will be with him one day soon. It’s not your choice, but it is your destiny.]]
But this is Biblically untrue. If you come to someone and tell them that they are just fine the way they are, you are deceiving them into a false sense of security. God loves us, but He loves us too much to let us stay in our sin.
[[I understand fully where you’re coming from, Dave. Like I said, I was once much like you. But, God changed my heart, and showed me how amazing his Grace really was. And it was more wonderful than I could even imagine.]]
Will God say one thing in His word and then do another? The only way to obtain the saving grace is through faith and acceptance of Jesus Christ. Apart from this, no one is saved. Clearly, you disagree, and since I’m a reasonable man, I’d be interested in your Scriptural reasons for this.
[[I don’t expect you to understand, or accept, any of this.]]
It’s because I start with God’s word, and you are deviating from it. What does the Bible say about Heaven? In Psalm 24, we read: “Who may ascend the hill of the LORD? Who may stand in his holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart, who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false.”
Who among us can claim to have clean hands or a pure heart? None. Revelation 20:15 states that “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” Revelation 21:8 further clarifies “the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur.”
Unless Christ’s death covers a man, he is bound for this eternal fate. And Scripture is clear that only through believing in and accepting Christ can this happen.
You are surely not going to suggest to me that everyone believes in and accepts Christ? Are you going to tell me that Saddam Hussein, Timothy McVeigh and Mohammad Atta automatically went to heaven? Because it is quite clear none of them accepted Christ before dying.
Cordially,
-Dave
Back atcha, Mindy! I can’t wait to see you guys again!
Gee Dave, that’s quite a theology you got there! Good luck with that!
I see your very “bible” based, and while I have a great appreciation for that book, I admit that I agree with a good friend who once said, “the bible is like a fiddle… you can make it play any tune you like!”
The religion you hold to sounds more like that of the Jews than it does a follower of Christ. Your religion is more about what YOU DO than what God did! I’m done with that! I know I’ll never measure up to the requirements of christianity, and trying to hold up to that system of rules and obligations will only breed more fear and doubt into my heart and soul. If I have any chance at redemption, my only hope is that the Prophets of old were right, and foretold of a Messiah who would come to redeem the world… not give the world a chance at redemption… but REDEEM it to the Father, once and for all! If I can’t trust that the Messiah has come, I have no hope. I cannot trust in myself. I am a failure in the flesh. But, through grace, I know that I am perfect in the Father’s eyes. And so are you. You just don’t know it yet. But, you will.
It’s too bad so many God seekers don’t believe that Jesus was the Messiah (as defined by the Prophets - look it up). But, it is a lot to ask someone to believe that Jesus possessed enough power to redeem all of creation. For most, it is TOO HARD TO BELIEVE! But, it doesn’t matter… Christ redeemed us to the Father, even in our disbelief! God locked us all into disbelief so that he could have mercy on us all, equally… powerfully. Without our permission, and without our participation.
Believe what you want, my friend. But, if you repent of your perception of a “partial redeemer” and believe that Christ was the Messiah, it will change your life!… as well as everyone around you!
Look beyond the trees and see the forest!
Great peace!
Hi Mindy, I missed your comment the first time around.
[[I am perfect in the eyes of God. He does not judge me. I know this because of the spirit within me.]]
The Bible is very clear on this; you are only perfect, you will only escape judgment if you are in Christ, if you have accepted his redemption and repented. We are only changed if we are in Christ. Any spirit within you telling you otherwise is not of God.
[[He knows the struggles that I will go through and he is with me through it all as he is with everyone. He doesn’t punish me.]]
We read in Hebrews that all true sons of God are disciplined. We may make the distinction between punishment and discipline, but it is still quite similar. Indeed, it is only the illegitimate children who do not suffer God’s correction.
[[Once I acknowledged this everything became more clear. I don’t walk through this life claiming that I am perfect and that I don’t make mistakes because I do and so does everyone else. Does it make me a sinner because I don’t believe in religion, but I believe in God?]]
May I state here briefly that even demons believe in God. Mere belief in the existence of God is not enough.
[[Does that mean I am headed for Hell? No. I do not believe in Hell.]]
Then you are in direct contrast to God’s own words on the subject.
So if I understand aright, would it be accurate to say that you are a good person overall, Mindy?
[[I do not believe in Church or religion and because of all of that I am happy. I am more kind then ever before. I am more thoughtful. I am less judgemental.]]
I am not convinced that being “less judgmental” is a benefit. There are certain extremes, opposites and poles that daily life require us to judge between, if we are not to become hideously apathetic to evil.
[[I am more free to be myself.]]
And who is this “myself” you become? Mankind was originally created to have fellowship with God. Apart from Him, we can never truly be ourselves. And we can only draw near to Him through Christ. Otherwise, our sins have alienated us from him.
[[I am more confident in who I am and I am all of this because I have overcome religion and I see what Jesus did for me at the cross. I will never go to church again where I am considered a sinner and damned to hell.]]
Are you saying you are not a sinner? Above, you said you are not perfect, and that you do make mistakes. What is the difference?
[[I don’t want wet and I am not hungry for crackers and grape juice anymore. LOL]]
I think you’ve been in the wrong church. Most churches these days do not proclaim the truth like they should. They either deceptively welcome everyone, or harshly reject everyone, or somewhere uncomfortably in between.
[[I love you Dave and that is all I need to do is love.]]
Let’s talk about this subject of “love” for a moment, can we? I note the mentioning of God’s love very often between you and Bruce, and while I wouldn’t think of denying that God loves us, I question how “love” here is being used.
I quote here from C.S. Lewis in “The Problem of Pain”:
“By the goodness of God we mean nowadays almost exclusively His lovingness; and in this we may be right. And by Love, in this context, most of us mean kindness — the desire to see others than the self happy; not happy in this way or in that, but just happy. What would really satisfy us would be a God who said of anything we happened to like doing, “What does it matter so long as they are contented?’ We want, in fact, not so much a Father in Heaven as a grandfather in heaven - a senile benevolence who, as they say, ‘liked to see young people enjoying themselves’, and whose plan for the universe was simply that it might be truly said at the end of each day, ‘a good time was had by all’.
…
Love is something more stern and splendid than mere kindness: that even the love between the sexes is, as in Dante, ‘a lord of terrible aspect’. There is kindness in Love: but Love and kindness are not coterminous, and when kindness (in the sense given above) is separated from the other elements of Love, it involves a certain fundamental indifference to its object, and even something like contempt of it. Kindness consents very readily to the removal of its object - we have all met people whose kindness to animals is constantly leading them to kill animals lest they should suffer. Kindness, merely as such, cares not whether its object becomes good or bad, provided only that it escapes suffering. As Scripture points out, it is bastards who are spoiled: the legitimate sons, who are to carry on the family tradition, are punished. [Lewis here notes the same verse I quoted earlier.] It is for people whom we care nothing about that we demand happiness on any terms: with our friends, our lovers, our children, we are exacting and would rather see them suffer much than be happy in contemptible and estrangling modes. If God is Love, He is, by definition, something more than mere kindness. And as it appears, from all the records, that though He has often rebuked us and condemned us, He has never regarded us with contempt. He has paid us the intolerable compliment of loving us, in the deepest, most tragic, most inexorable sense.”
- C.S. Lewis, “The Problem of Pain” Orig. 1944, taken from 2001 HarperCollins edition, pp. 31-33
Well, you got us there, Dave! You are “too correct” for me to debate. You win! I give up!
I will never give in to your way of thinking… it is what I escaped from several years ago. But I will never give up spreading the Good News of the Gospel of Christ!
Sadly, you have to live with those beliefs of yours. Glady, I don’t. My only belief is that Jesus is the Messiah as foretold by the Prophets of old. I have nothing to prove to anyone. To those who say “if you are a christian, then you will… (insert your favorite requirement here)”, I say “get behind me!” I know who I am, and I don’t have to prove anything to any body! (Isn’t that what Jesus told the “enemy” at the conclusion of his time in the wilderness?)
Please don’t take my comments as a jab. I only want to make clear my stance on the Gospel. And I know that true words of life never fall on deaf ears. I know you think you are here to correct our erroneous ways. But, I know better. I know that you are here because God brought you here. Maybe not now, but someday your eyes will be opened to the truth of the Work of Grace which God revealed to all mankind through the Cross of Christ. No matter what you choose to believe, you are always welcome here. And we look forward to your thoughts and ideas. But, don’t think that you will convert any of us to your current way of thinking. I think I can freely speak for all when I say… “been there, done that, don’t want any more of it”
Funny thing is, even if I am wrong about God, it’s a sure bet that I will reveal God to more hearts than you will (with your current theology), and enjoy watching them finding themselves drawn into Him even deeper! The God I know pulls people into himself through his incredible grace and his invitation of unconditional acceptance. The God you know requires people to perform correctly (push themselves in his direction, hoping he will take notice of their exemplary performance and forgive them and accept them).
By the way, it is said by some of his closest friends that CS Lewis became a believer in universal reconciliation late in his life. You can see hints of it throughout his writings (if you want to), and it’s easy to see how he could have eventualy come to that conclusion.
Best of life to you!
Bruce - the loser
NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace
Geo- the loser
G’day Bruce,
You wrote:
[[Gee Dave, that’s quite a theology you got there! Good luck with that!]]
Luck has nothing to do with it, and implies I’ve a chance of suffering more greatly under the truth than under universalism, which isn’t the case.
[[I see your very “bible” based, and while I have a great appreciation for that book, I admit that I agree with a good friend who once said, “the bible is like a fiddle… you can make it play any tune you like!”]]
Music is impartial to truth. The Bible can be distorted to play anything, but cannot be made to play just anything.
If you do not accept the Bible, then one must question where your belief in the Messiah comes from, or the various other Biblical doctrines you espouse? (IE, earlier you acknowledged the Great Commission.)
[[The religion you hold to sounds more like that of the Jews than it does a follower of Christ. Your religion is more about what YOU DO than what God did!]]
How you can have read what I wrote and come away with that impression, I don’t know. I wrote that it is all about Christ’s sacrifice, and the imparting of His saving grace in our lives. The Bible acknowledges the human role in this decision (John 1:12, John 3:16, Acts 16:31), refuting your universalist beliefs.
[[I know I’ll never measure up to the requirements of christianity, and trying to hold up to that system of rules and obligations will only breed more fear and doubt into my heart and soul.]]
Christianity is not a requirement, a system or rules or of obligations. Sadly, many churches today approach it as such, and teach it as such. I suspect you’ve been in the wrong kinds of churches to have come away with such a belief. I know, because I’ve been in them before.
Romans 6 shows us rather that the temptation after hearing the appropriate explanation of grace is to assume we can “go on sinning that grace may increase”.
[[I cannot trust in myself. I am a failure in the flesh. But, through grace, I know that I am perfect in the Father’s eyes. And so are you. You just don’t know it yet. But, you will.]]
I ask this rhetorically — where do you derive the idea of being sinful and imperfect?
[[But, it is a lot to ask someone to believe that Jesus possessed enough power to redeem all of creation. For most, it is TOO HARD TO BELIEVE! But, it doesn’t matter… Christ redeemed us to the Father, even in our disbelief! God locked us all into disbelief so that he could have mercy on us all, equally… powerfully. Without our permission, and without our participation.]]
I must ask, once and for all, that you to back up or defend this claim. If you do not base it on the Bible (which can, after all, be made to play any tune according to you), then upon what? And you must certainly understand why I - or anyone - cannot accept your claim of universally imparted righteousness merely on your say- (so.
G’day Bruce,
You wrote:
[[Gee Dave, that’s quite a theology you got there! Good luck with that!]]
Luck has nothing to do with it, and implies I’ve a chance of suffering more greatly under the truth than under universalism, which isn’t the case.
[[I see your very “bible” based, and while I have a great appreciation for that book, I admit that I agree with a good friend who once said, “the bible is like a fiddle… you can make it play any tune you like!”]]
Music is impartial to truth. The Bible can be distorted to play anything, but cannot be made to play just anything.
If you do not accept the Bible, then one must question where your belief in the Messiah comes from, or the various other Biblical doctrines you espouse? (IE, earlier you acknowledged the Great Commission.)
[[The religion you hold to sounds more like that of the Jews than it does a follower of Christ. Your religion is more about what YOU DO than what God did!]]
How you can have read what I wrote and come away with that impression, I don’t know. I wrote that it is all about Christ’s sacrifice, and the imparting of His saving grace in our lives. The Bible acknowledges the human role in this decision (John 1:12, John 3:16, Acts 16:31), refuting your universalist beliefs.
[[I know I’ll never measure up to the requirements of christianity, and trying to hold up to that system of rules and obligations will only breed more fear and doubt into my heart and soul.]]
Christianity is not a requirement, a system or rules or of obligations. Sadly, many churches today approach it as such, and teach it as such. I suspect you’ve been in the wrong kinds of churches to have come away with such a belief. I know, because I’ve been in them before.
Romans 6 shows us rather that the temptation after hearing the appropriate explanation of grace is to assume we can “go on sinning that grace may increase”.
[[I cannot trust in myself. I am a failure in the flesh. But, through grace, I know that I am perfect in the Father’s eyes. And so are you. You just don’t know it yet. But, you will.]]
I ask this rhetorically — where do you derive the idea of being sinful and imperfect?
[[But, it is a lot to ask someone to believe that Jesus possessed enough power to redeem all of creation. For most, it is TOO HARD TO BELIEVE! But, it doesn’t matter… Christ redeemed us to the Father, even in our disbelief! God locked us all into disbelief so that he could have mercy on us all, equally… powerfully. Without our permission, and without our participation.]]
I must ask, once and for all, that you to back up or defend this claim. If you do not base it on the Bible (which can, after all, be made to play any tune according to you), then upon what? You must certainly understand why I - or anyone - cannot accept your claim of universally imparted righteousness merely on your say-so. But I’m a open to your foundation behind what you say. To what independent and verifiable authority do you appeal?
Hello, are my comments being rejected now?
Okay, sorry, I tried submitting this comment several times and it wouldn’t let me.
G’day Bruce,
You wrote:
[[Gee Dave, that’s quite a theology you got there! Good luck with that!]]
Luck has nothing to do with it, and implies I’ve a chance of suffering more greatly under the truth than under universalism, which isn’t the case.
[[I see your very “bible” based, and while I have a great appreciation for that book, I admit that I agree with a good friend who once said, “the bible is like a fiddle… you can make it play any tune you like!”]]
Music is impartial to truth. The Bible can be distorted to play anything, but cannot be made to play just anything.
If you do not accept the Bible, then one must question where your belief in the Messiah comes from, or the various other Biblical doctrines you espouse? (IE, earlier you acknowledged the Great Commission.)
[[The religion you hold to sounds more like that of the Jews than it does a follower of Christ. Your religion is more about what YOU DO than what God did!]]
How you can have read what I wrote and come away with that impression, I don’t know. I wrote that it is all about Christ’s sacrifice, and the imparting of His saving grace in our lives. The Bible acknowledges the human role in this decision (John 1:12, John 3:16, Acts 16:31), refuting your universalist beliefs.
[[I know I’ll never measure up to the requirements of christianity, and trying to hold up to that system of rules and obligations will only breed more fear and doubt into my heart and soul.]]
Christianity is not a requirement, a system or rules or of obligations. Sadly, many churches today approach it as such, and teach it as such. I suspect you’ve been in the wrong kinds of churches to have come away with such a belief. I know, because I’ve been in them before.
Romans 6 shows us rather that the temptation after hearing the appropriate explanation of grace is to assume we can “go on sinning that grace may increase”.
[[I cannot trust in myself. I am a failure in the flesh. But, through grace, I know that I am perfect in the Father’s eyes. And so are you. You just don’t know it yet. But, you will.]]
I ask this rhetorically — where do you derive the idea of being sinful and imperfect?
[[But, it is a lot to ask someone to believe that Jesus possessed enough power to redeem all of creation. For most, it is TOO HARD TO BELIEVE! But, it doesn’t matter… Christ redeemed us to the Father, even in our disbelief! God locked us all into disbelief so that he could have mercy on us all, equally… powerfully. Without our permission, and without our participation.]]
I must ask, once and for all, that you to back up or defend this claim. If you do not base it on the Bible (which can, after all, be made to play any tune according to you), then upon what? You must certainly understand why I - or anyone - cannot accept your claim of universally imparted righteousness merely on your say-so. But I’m a open to your foundation behind what you say. To what independent and verifiable authority do you appeal?
Hey Dave, You imply we can’t defend ourselves concerning the bible and the idea that Jesus is the Savior of the World. Please answer the following scriptures in detail of why they don’t teach that He is.
1 John 4:14-15
14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.
Rom 5:6-8
6 You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly. 7 Very rarely will anyone die for a righteous man, though for a good man someone might possibly dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:10-11
10 For if, when we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:18-19
18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
Rom 11:32
32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
2 Cor 5:14-15
14 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. 15 And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.
2 Cor 5:18-21
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
1 Tim 1:12-17
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners — of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Rom 8:20-21
20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
1 Tim 2:1-6
2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all men — the testimony given in its proper time.
Rom 14:11
11 It is written:
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.’”
John 1:6-9
7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9 The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
John 12:30-33
30 Jesus said, “This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”
1 Tim 4:9-10
9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men , and especially of those who believe.
2 Sam 14:14
14 Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him.
Heb 13:7-8
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.
Heb 2:8-9
In putting everything under him, God left nothing that is not subject to him. Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him. 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Isa 45:23-25
23 By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked: Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear. 24 They will say of me, ‘In the LORD alone
are righteousness and strength. ‘”All who have raged against him
will come to him and be put to shame. 25 But in the LORD all the descendants of Israel will be found righteous and will exult.
Eph 1:9-10
9 And he made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment — to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.
Eph 2:4-9
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,
5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions — it is by grace you have been saved.
6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
Eph 2:13-17
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near through the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace,
16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.
17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
Rom 11:32-36
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief , that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Heb 9:24
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Acts 15:10-11
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear?
11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”
Acts 10:28
28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.
Peace,
Cliff - another loser
And by the way Dave, When you get done with those I have several hundred more for you to help us out with.
Peace,
Cliff
“then upon what?”
The Spirit of God
Gdday Bruce,
[[Well, you got us there, Dave! You are “too correct” for me to debate. You win! I give up!]]
It’s not me that is correct at all. It is God’s Word, and I’m simply lining up with that. I cannot be faulted if God is right.
[[I will never give in to your way of thinking… it is what I escaped from several years ago.]]
If this is actually true, then there is no use in my remaining here. However, you continue to say you disagree with me, and we continue to trade words of disagreement, even though you and I agree on so much. We need to boil it down to the specific point of disagreement on find out where the disparity is.
[[Sadly, you have to live with those beliefs of yours. Glady, I don’t.]]
No offense, mate, but that’s probably what people told Noah too.
[[I know you think you are here to correct our erroneous ways.]]
Mostly, trying to find out where on earth you get them, especially given your comment about the Bible being played like a fiddle.
[[I think I can freely speak for all when I say… “been there, done that, don’t want any more of it”]]
I think the mistake you make is in assuming where my beliefs lie is the “there” of “been there, done that.”
[[Funny thing is, even if I am wrong about God, it’s a sure bet that I will reveal God to more hearts than you will (with your current theology), and enjoy watching them finding themselves drawn into Him even deeper!]]
How’s that working for you so far, mate? Running around telling everyone that God loves them just the way they are, and they’re already saved, so they’re now free to keep on doing what they’ve been doing? Congratulations to all the murderers, druggies, rapists and molesters out there - God loves you just the way you are, and you don’t have to do anything to change!
How anyone could read such a perspective in the Bible is beyond me. We are painted a very clear picture, that mankind suffers from a terminal disease of sin, and unless the grace of God covers him, he will die apart from God and burn in hell forever. Before, the church preached the disease (rants of condemnation about sin, ala your “hellfire” preachers) and not the cure. Now, the church has been preaching the cure without preaching the disease. And who will want a cure to a disease they don’t know they have?
[[The God I know pulls people into himself through his incredible grace and his invitation of unconditional acceptance.]]
If the God you know does this to all men whether they believe in and accept him or not, then it is not the God of the Bible.
[[The God you know requires people to perform correctly]]
This is a false understanding of what I am saying. I daresay you’ve been a bit too eager to read into my words the legalism you’ve dealt with in whatever past churches you’ve been in.
[[By the way, it is said by some of his closest friends that CS Lewis became a believer in universal reconciliation late in his life. You can see hints of it throughout his writings (if you want to), and it’s easy to see how he could have eventualy come to that conclusion.]]
I’ve been reading Lewis for years now, have yet to see any such thing. The only thing that comes close is the treatment of Emmet, the character in The Last Battle, who wished to render noble service unto he whom he knew as a god, Tash. The messianic Aslan explains that noble and righteous service rendered to Tash is actually accounted service to Aslan, just as malicious and sinful deeds rendered in service of Aslan are credited instead to Tash. This is a far cry from universalism, but still theologically incorrect because it is only through Christ that salvation can come.
[[You imply we can’t defend ourselves concerning the bible and the idea that Jesus is the Savior of the World.]]
I look forward to discussing the matter in the context of the Bible, but first I must ask whether or not we can all agree upon the Bible as the word of God. Cliff, you seem to accept it (or at least appeal to its authority), while Bruce seems to deny it, as it can supposedly be made to play any tune I want it too. He argues instead that it is the “spirit of God” that is his authority. All well and good - anyone can argue divine revelation and being led by the spirit. But God put His words down in writing for a reason, so that we may consult them to measure the words of others claiming divine revelation. This is why we are called to test the spirits (1 John 4), and why Paul says “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” (Galatians 1:8-9)
It is pointless to argue from the Bible unless we all agree upon it as God’s word.
Dave, are you saying that you have the correct interpretation and complete understanding of the bible? Man, that’s wonderful! Good for you!
I feel bad for the other billions of people who don’t agree with your interpretation.
I completely agree with Paul’s statement: “If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!” But, what was the gospel they accepted?
But it’s all good, my friend. I have no argument with you. The gospel of peace has you covered. You can believe whatever you want to believe, no matter how much harm it does to yourself and those around you.
And yes, I look forward to spending eternity with the murderers, druggies, rapists and molesters… just as I look forward to spending eternity with you! Or, are you better than they are? I can tell you, I’m not!
I don’t expect you to agree with any of what I say. Cling to whatever religious doctrine you want. But, seek peace, and be filled with love. Represent God to all you encounter. Let them be drawn to you. Let them rest in your safeness. Let them comfort in your acceptance. — Oh wait, you don’t see God that way, do you? Well, just be yourself, and everything will work out in the long run.
Love ya!
Bruce,
[[Dave, are you saying that you have the correct interpretation and complete understanding of the bible? Man, that’s wonderful! Good for you!]]
Am I saying I understand and comprehend God’s perfect word 100%? Not a chance. Am you saying that God did not make Himself clear enough in the Bible for us mortals to grasp, if not the deep theological truths, at least the basics?
There’s a HUGE difference between claiming 100% understanding and claiming to understand a significant portion of it. And I’m sorry, when the Lord speaks of hell and eternal punishment for those who do not accept Christ, there’s not a whole lot of room for interpretive differences.
If you disagree on interpretation, let’s talk.
But we have to start with the Bible. You ventured a rather sweeping indictment of the Bible altogether with your “fiddle” comment, which is why I’m having to back up and make sure we’re all starting at the same point.
[[I feel bad for the other billions of people who don’t agree with your interpretation.]]
As do I. As does God. That’s why He tells us to spread the gospel.
[[But, what was the gospel they accepted?]]
The first several chapters of Romans are an excellent outline of the Gospel that Paul preached, if you’re interested.
[[But it’s all good, my friend. I have no argument with you. The gospel of peace has you covered. You can believe whatever you want to believe, no matter how much harm it does to yourself and those around you.]]
Look at where your belief has led you. Not to promote truth, not to spread the gospel, not to confront lies, but merely to wave your hand and drowsily respond “it’s all good” when challenged.
If what I’m preaching is apostasy, then you should be willing to confront it. But it’s not, is it?
[[And yes, I look forward to spending eternity with the murderers, druggies, rapists and molesters… just as I look forward to spending eternity with you! ]]
Key difference here is not the nature of their crimes, but whether or not they are repentant.
[[Or, are you better than they are? I can tell you, I’m not!]]
Please let’s not start in with the “I’m more humble than you” exchanges.
[[I don’t expect you to agree with any of what I say. Cling to whatever religious doctrine you want. But, seek peace, and be filled with love. Represent God to all you encounter. Let them be drawn to you. Let them rest in your safeness. Let them comfort in your acceptance. — Oh wait, you don’t see God that way, do you? Well, just be yourself, and everything will work out in the long run.]]
This is precisely the problem. “Be yourself and everything will work out n the long run”?? This is NOT the gospel of Jesus Christ! The holy and pure God of the Old Testament did not change into a saccharine, silky, tolerant little pony of a God in the New Testament. God is the same yesterday, today and forever. What changed is, Christ took our punishment to relieve the requirement of blood to atone for sin.
It seems the point we fundamentally disagree on is, who is saved and who isn’t. Do you agree?
If so, then can we approach the word of God to find whether or not this is true? Are you up to the challenge?
As I mentioned previously, there are two extremes. Hellfire preaching, and tolerance preaching. Not two weeks ago, I was out on the sidewalks publicly confronting a hellfire preacher in front of a crowd, because what he was teaching was wrong. Here, you are teaching the gospel of universal salvation regardless of belief, which is also wrong.
Because I disagree, you’re trying to paint me as the hellfire extreme. But then again, to those who are off-center, center appears extreme, doesn’t it?
Dave, I appreciate your kind responses.
I must say, you have exhausted me. You win. Truly.
I give up.
You are so deeply indoctrinated in your theology, you won’t listen to what is being said. You want to debate the bible. Well, Cliff posted dozens of bible verses which you skipped over without even a nod. All you want to do is build up your own ego (self-righteousness) by defending your “truth”. You’ve got it all figured out, and you are willing to fight to uphold it. Well, I’m all out of fight. If you want answers, they’re out there. Go find them. If you just want to bully people into aligning with your “truth”, no need to waste your time here. But, if you want to know some great people who shine with God, let’s get to know each other. You are important to God, and you are important to us. But, let us be who we are. We have gone through what you’re going through and we have arrived at a new place… a better place. We are resting in the heart of God the Father, and enjoying life with Him, and with each other. Come… rest… enjoy… be.
I appreciate what you’re doing. For years (and I mean YEARS) I used to do the same thing. I went around to message boards and forums and debated with the heretics whose beliefs didn’t match mine. I debated, argued, and fought with people until I slowly started to see the illogic in what I believed. Through time, things began to crumble. Paradigms of belief shattered, and my theological world started to fall apart. My firm rooting was rotting. I began to face the doubt and fear that traditional christianity created in my mind. In that new reality, guilt and shame overwhelmed me and I could not speak a strong defense for my beliefs. My slate was being wiped clean… and now I’m glad for it.
It was in that fresh, open perspective that God revealed himself to me. The bible took on an entirely new meaning, as if I was reading it now for the first time. The words were fresh and impactful, and breathed life. I soon fell in love. I fell deeply in love with my Creator, and glimpsed his heart… and fell deeper.
This is why I say it’s all about revelation. When you have that revelation, nothing else matters. And if you don’t have it, nothing else will make any difference.
I look forward to the day your theological/doctrinal world crumbles. I eagerly await your slate being wiped clean. I jump for joy at the revelation you will receive!
Someone said something similar to this to me many years ago, and I remember shouting “NEVER”. I patted myself on my back at how correct my understanding of God was, and how I would never believe the way they believed. I was wrong.
Do I have all the answers now? No. I’m sure God will guide me through even more changes. And I so look forward to it. The journey is grand, and it just keeps getting better. In the few years I’ve held to this idea that God is love, I have changed immensely more than all the 40-so years I spent in traditional thinking. I see incredible changes in people around me who have struggled all their lives with doubt and fear. I see the freedom to enjoy God settling into them and peace growing in them. I see happy people where there was once pain. I see healed people where there once was torment. I will never go back to the picture of God you hold. Never.
See you in heaven! It is much closer than you think, you know!
Oh, by the way Dave. If you want to learn more about this gospel of peace from a biblical perspective, listen to some of Mike Williams’ teachings on gospelogic.com (see link on the sidebar)
Geo can point you to some of the best ones to listen to.
Christ in me salutes Christ in you!
Also, I have no doubt that Christ is the Messiah. If he is, then all is well. If he wasn’t, none of this matters. All my hope is in him.
~B
[[I must say, you have exhausted me. You win. Truly. I give up. ]]
Mate, you can’t give up, we haven’t even begun!
[[You are so deeply indoctrinated in your theology, you won’t listen to what is being said. You want to debate the bible. Well, Cliff posted dozens of bible verses which you skipped over without even a nod.]]
Evidently, you didn’t read what I wrote. You’re either filled with misperceptions about where I’m coming from, or you’re convincing yourself that I’m of the legalistic persuasion and are running from that. I too know legalism from the inside, and that’s not where I am.
I said I looked forward to discussing the Bible verses Cliff provided, but I had to affirm first that everyone participating in the discussion accepted the Bible as God’s Word. You seem to have no trouble with Cliff appealing to it, but when I do, you insist that anyone can make the Bible say anything they please. That’s a double-standard I wanted to make sure we dispensed with.
[[All you want to do is build up your own ego (self-righteousness) by defending your “truth”.]]
Beneath the sugary veneer, it sounds like you are pretty ticked at me. It didn’t take long to get past the “love” of yours, did it? But as I mentioned earlier, I think we’re working less off the true definition of love, and a more feathery, silky “wuv” love than the inexorable, overcoming love of Christ.
I’m not here for me or to build up my ego one bit.
[[You’ve got it all figured out, and you are willing to fight to uphold it. ]]
If it is a crime to stand by and defend one’s beliefs, I am guilty as charged. (You, on the other hand…)
[[Well, I’m all out of fight.]]
We never fought. We never, ever engaged in anything more than trying to peg down our differences and where they laid. I was just gearing up.
[[If you want answers, they’re out there. Go find them.]]
Before you said I was welcome here and brought for a purpose. Now you’re turning me out into the cold, hard world to find the answers? Further evidence of a lack of adherence to the Great Commission. Here you have someone who just showed up on your forum through a web search, and is inquiring further about your interpretation of God’s grace. But you back down after a scant few questions! How is this being prepared to give an answer for what you believe in (2 Peter 3:15)?
[[If you just want to bully people into aligning with your “truth”, no need to waste your time here.]]
Bullying is impossible on the internet. This is an open, free website.
[[We are resting in the heart of God the Father, and enjoying life with Him, and with each other. Come… rest… enjoy… be.]]
How can I rest when there’s work to be done? There are millions who have never heard the gospel, and there is all manner of service for the kingdom. “The harvest is plenty, but the workers are few,” Christ said, and you’re lying back and chewing a stalk of hay, “resting.” Don’t take my comments as offensive, mate, take them as a wake-up call!
[[I debated, argued, and fought with people until I slowly started to see the illogic in what I believed.]]
Wonderful. Make this my epiphany then.
If we can agree to start from the Bible, then I can show you that Christ did not impart righteousness universally to everyone in the universe.
WOW!
WOW!
WOW!
Peace
Geo
From Dave’ Blog Sub Title:
DaveLoneRanger’s personal blog
This is a blog by a young conservative collegiate political enthusiast. My main interests are defense of doctrine and ideology, and persuasive debate.
WOW!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Bruce,
If I see this correctly Dave is NOT here to be persuaded but to DEBATE and BATE. Good Luck with that! I will watch from the sidelines! Because Dave is NOT searching for TRUTH but is, so he seems to think by his writings PROCLAIMING Truth. Which we heretics need to heed or else! hahahaha!
NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Peace
Geo
Dave, I’m not “ticked” at all. I actually find this fairly amusing. I see myself in the words you write, and enjoy remembering how nice it was to be relieved of that mindset. And you certainly are welcome here. Most folks here are enjoying the peace of knowing a loving God, and have no desire to fight. We delight in sharing life with one another, and speaking love and encouragement to those who have been left behind (or pushed out) by mainstream christianity.
I’m not sure I would call this an “answer” place though. You’ll find the folks here have nothing to prove… we know who we are to God. Besides, you have proven the superiority of your intellect, and debating with you would be a waste of time. I can only run my head into a brick wall so many times before I start to think I’m probably not getting anywhere.
What we believe is not something one can prove through any amount of knowledge or debate. I think everyone here would agree when I say… it comes through inspiration and revelation. I don’t think any amount of debate will change anything, not for the moment anyway. But, I will always have hope for you!
Hey Dave,
One of the chapters I just read tonight before reading all of these blogs was the following:
Matthew chapter 5:48
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your father which is in heaven is perfect.
Dave,
I will never be a hypocrite again. I will never pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets. I have been made perfect in the eyes of God. Jesus died on the cross for me. I will never be perfect in the eyes of the religious hypocrites. I use to fear what I thought was God. I worried about my every thought and my every action because of those religious hypocrites standing on the street corners. I was made in God’s image. God is love and the beauty of all of this is that I am free. God has rewarded me openly! It doesn’t matter what you come on this blog and repeat or quote because you are not my idol. You are my brother and I love you for being human. I am sure you do the same for me.
Lets talk about that.
Peace Dave
Dave,
You said: “If we can agree to start from the Bible, then I can show you that Christ did not impart righteousness universally to everyone in the universe.”
I want you to start from the bible and answer a simple question that is central to your viewpoints.
Here is the Question:
IF THE REDEMPTION (because of the cross) IS NOT APPLIED TO ALL MANKIND THEN WHAT EXACTLY IS REQUIRED OF A HUMAN BEING IN ORDER TO RECEIVE THIS REDEMPTION?
There are 30,000 denominations of christian faith that divide, condemn, and reject each other over this question. All of them claim (like you) that the answer is clear in the bible.
Now we here at Bold Grace do not believe our righteousness is gained by any action or belief on our part. You obviously disagree, so, we just want you to SIMPLY TELL US EXACTLY WHAT IS REQUIRED???????
You Said: “Wonderful. Make this my epiphany then.”
Here’s your chance…….We’ll be looking foward to your answer.
[[If I see this correctly Dave is NOT here to be persuaded but to DEBATE and BATE. Good Luck with that! I will watch from the sidelines! Because Dave is NOT searching for TRUTH but is, so he seems to think by his writings PROCLAIMING Truth.]]
Hi Geo. If you’re going to be a spectator, be my guest. But I think everyone else already figured out that I come from a different (Scriptural) perspective, and that I am interested in matching this Biblical truth against the beliefs held here.
Hi Bruce,
[[I see myself in the words you write, and enjoy remembering how nice it was to be relieved of that mindset.]]
Are you aware of just how many people have tried to hand me that line? And yet, how can one allow one’s self to be irked at condescension when it is so prettily wrapped in sympathy?
[[Most folks here are enjoying the peace of knowing a loving God, and have no desire to fight.]]
I’m not picking a fight either, but minds only stay sharp through continued practice and challenge. I am constantly seeking new venues of debate. Either I’ll discover the error of my ways, or someone else will. Or, I’ll come away with more experience in dealing with objections to my belief. It’s a win-win-win situation.
[[Besides, you have proven the superiority of your intellect, and debating with you would be a waste of time. I can only run my head into a brick wall so many times before I start to think I’m probably not getting anywhere.]]
I do not accept that I am more intelligent than you. More precisely, I have a hard time accepting that you actually believe that.
[[What we believe is not something one can prove through any amount of knowledge or debate.]]
If God reveals His truth, He makes it obtainable by everyone. You of all people should have no trouble believing this. So then, why the exclusive revelation that is being claimed?
[[I will never be a hypocrite again. I will never pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets. I have been made perfect in the eyes of God.]]
Hi Mindy. Let me be frank, I’ve come up against religious groups who claim you can obtain perfection here on earth. If this is what you were told Christianity is, somebody lied to you. I wouldn’t advocate returning to THAT belief for the world.
But I’m still confused that the Bible is being quoted, because of the earlier comment about how it can be played like a fiddle.
If we can all agree to start with the Bible, and wipe the slate clean otherwise, I’d just love talking completely about the Scriptural verses presented here.
Dave,
Let me be frank, what I see that everyone is trying to make clear to you is that all of us can point out scriptures all day long and you can debate our perspective and we can debate yours, but NOONE here other than you needs your perspective. Don’t get me wrong Dave. You are welcome here, but try to become a little sharper through this very moment and be courtious enough to understand that we do not need your debate to stay “sharp”. It is you that needs the debate. If you are searching for more intelligence then simply look within yourself. This group of people are about encouraging others along their journeys, not debating which direction is the best.
My personal journey, My story, my own mind has lead me to where I am at today and I can thank God and Jesus for that. Even when I did go to Church I didn’t debate my perspective. I simply trusted the spirit within to guide me. I trusted myself.
[I wouldn’t advocate returning to THAT belief for the world.]
Thank you Dave for the advice, but nothing I do is for the world. It is done for me and God. Only he knows my story. I would be so lucky if my life was encouragement to someone else.
WOW!
This truly is Good FOOD!
Of course it is also the same food that Adam and Eve ate from The Tree of The Knowledge of GOOD and Evil! So hear is my last bite in this conversation… Dave you said Bruce was condescending. Well have you gone back and read your comments? You are the same. Also Dave by saying that our beliefs are setting people free to sin more you OBVIOUSLY DO NOT understand the Grace and Peace that comes from God our Father! A Grace so AMAZING even you who call yourself “Christian” do NOT believe it! You se Dave Grace UNMERITED favor is just that! You “buying” it by your belief makes it an “exchange” ie God saying, “If you do (believe) Then I WILL”
That my brother is a purchase and is NOT unmerited favor. Peace to you in your mission to debate and convince the world to “buy” their freedom from your belief system. As for me and my house we will say Jesus PAID IT ALL!
Also Dave you can call any and all here condescending or any other descriptive term and it will NOT change their beliefs. As one of the Bold Grace website owners I can tell you that we did not put this site up for people who are seeking to debate and prove their theology. The people of Bold Grace have NOTHING to prove.
Mindy… NEVER be entangled again to the yoke of bondage that others try to put on you! I love how True Freedom has set you and all FREE even if they don’t believe it.
Peace
Geo
[[You are welcome here, but try to become a little sharper through this very moment and be courtious enough to understand that we do not need your debate to stay “sharp”. It is you that needs the debate.]]
Isn’t that what I said? I’m willing to match my ideas against yours, and forgo any declaration as to whose benefit the discussion is for.
[[If you are searching for more intelligence then simply look within yourself. This group of people are about encouraging others along their journeys, not debating which direction is the best.]]
You don’t ever worry that you’re encouraging people right into hell? Because unless you preach Christ crucified, and the need to repent from sin and believe in Him, then that’s exactly what you’re doing. Christ had some very strong words against such teachings.
[[Even when I did go to Church I didn’t debate my perspective. I simply trusted the spirit within to guide me. I trusted myself.]]
“Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight.” (Proverbs 3:5-6)
[[Dave you said Bruce was condescending. Well have you gone back and read your comments? You are the same.]]
It appears anyone standing firm in his convictions and belief in the Bible comes across as condescending to you.
[[Also Dave by saying that our beliefs are setting people free to sin more you OBVIOUSLY DO NOT understand the Grace and Peace that comes from God our Father! A Grace so AMAZING even you who call yourself “Christian” do NOT believe it! You se Dave Grace UNMERITED favor is just that! You “buying” it by your belief makes it an “exchange” ie God saying, “If you do (believe) Then I WILL”]]
You are failing to distinguish between the common grace that God provides to all and the saving grace which He only provides to those who believe. This is Scriptural, my friend!
[[That my brother is a purchase and is NOT unmerited favor.]]
Repentance is not a purchase, it is an acceptance of redemption.
Declaring the need to believe in God is neither bondage nor legalism. It is simply the truth.
Don’t you all see, it’s very tempting to want to believe that our task is no harder than to convince people that they’re already saved? That would make our life a whole lot easier. But think about it. If that was our only task, why did most of the disciples of Jesus, and so many other heroes of the faith, suffer horrible deaths as martyrs for the cause? Just because they were telling everyone that God loved them? No, it was because they were preaching the need to repent.
If everyone were already saved and in the kingdom, there would be no need to risk one’s life simply to convince someone of their eternal salvation if it is inevitable anyway.
Dave,
I’m still waiting for you to answer my simple question.
Dave, if your truth is so compelling, why don’t you just state it, and give us the grace to accept it, or not? We gladly give you the grace to accept, or not, what we claim as the truth. And not accepting our truth will not change the way we feel about you. You are the righteousness of Christ whether you believe or not. And we embrace the perfection that you embody. We will not, no cannot, think less of you for any reason. Our love for you remains constant and with end.
Let me ask you something. Do you really care about us? Or do you need to test your “truth” to gain reassurance that you are correct? Why do you worry so much about being correct? Or, maybe the bigger question is… what will your opinion of us be if we don’t accept your perception of the truth? Will you forsake us, and condemn us to hell, as your “God” would? Is your theology, and need to be correct, more important than our humanity, and the life that is within us?
If it is, I will be sorely disappointed. And if it is, I assure you, I want no part of your religion! The religion you teach is divisive. If that is your intent, then you have it. But, our view of the Good News of Christ is about unity, and inclusion to those who have been cast out… without exception. He represents peace and reconciliation, and brings hope and love into a confused world.
Come and get to know us. We hope to get to know you… the real you… not the religious “you” who demands conformity. We accept you because we see the same Spirit of Life in you that we have within us. That’s all we need to connect.
But, I have a feeling you will write us off as heretics, and proclaim that you have “won”, confirming that your “truth” is correct, and cannot be debated. That would be a shame. But, I will leave you with the hope of love, and the desire to be One… with each other and with the Source of our Spirit.
Great peace to you, my friend.
OK I Lied!
I said I was NOT going to partake of this conversation anymore but I want to add this to you Dave.
Dave, ALL of us at the Bold Grace Website see you as Holy, Righteous and Perfect! We see you as being a brother and as one of Great value and worth. But we will never see things from your point of view again. So if you want to hang around and debate your theology go ahead but know this.. Someday soon you will come to a crisis of your faith and you will wonder if there even is a God! And at that point I hope we are around so we can cheer you on to let go of all of your faith and embrace the faith of Christ.
Peace to you my Perfect Friend.
Your Perfect Friend
Geo
Amen George! I sure do love all of you.
Nice Response Bruce. You are beautiful.
Trying this again, the board hasn’t been accepting my posts.
[[I’m still waiting for you to answer my simple question.]]
Sorry Cliff, I missed it the first time around.
[[I want you to start from the bible and answer a simple question that is central to your viewpoints.
Here is the Question:
IF THE REDEMPTION (because of the cross) IS NOT APPLIED TO ALL MANKIND THEN WHAT EXACTLY IS REQUIRED OF A HUMAN BEING IN ORDER TO RECEIVE THIS REDEMPTION?]]
To believe in Jesus Christ and accept his grace. This is made clear in Peter’s response to the jailer in Acts 16:31, where the desperate jailer asks “what must I do to be saved?” Peter did not reply “nothing, bro, you’re already good.” He said “Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you shall be saved”. As I mentioned before, John 3:16, the most famous verse that anyone can cite points out that whoever believes in Christ will not perish but have eternal life.
Romans 10:9-10 also spells it out, that if you confess with your mouth Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
All of Matthew 25 is devoted to this idea of a separation, a division between the sheet and goats, wheat and tares, righteous and evil. It is not our deeds that make us righteous, but only Christ.
See also:
Matthew 7:13-14, Matthew 7:19-23, Matthew 13:27-30 (as well as the explanation in 37-43), John 6:37, Revelation 3:20, Hebrews 7:25.
[[There are 30,000 denominations of christian faith that divide, condemn, and reject each other over this question. All of them claim (like you) that the answer is clear in the bible.]]
So what is the best way to discern the truth? Through the opinions and claimed “revelations” of man? Or by searching the scriptures daily (Acts 17:11) and testing the teachings of man with the the teachings of God?
[[Now we here at Bold Grace do not believe our righteousness is gained by any action or belief on our part. You obviously disagree, so, we just want you to SIMPLY TELL US EXACTLY WHAT IS REQUIRED???????]]
If you consider accepting Christ a “deed”, then I must consent the point. The passages in Scripture teach us that no one can earn or work his way into heaven. Accepting Christ’s salvation is no deed, and it is not earning anything. It’s rather the opposite - an acknowledgment that what we need cannot be earned. If you are trying to say this confession is a deed, then I cannot help that. Scripture is clear on this point.
Dave, I don’t think anyone here would agree that all are saved (a renewing of the mind and spirit). I believe most of us agree that there is a big difference between redemption and salvation.
All are redeemed to the Father through the work of the Cross of Christ.
But, only those who can understand that - will be saved (at least in this lifetime). Salvation will eventually come to all because all will someday come to a full understanding of their redemption in Christ. But, it is vastly beneficial to have our minds saved as soon in life as possible. Most of life’s problems come because of our fears, doubts, and shame. Knowing that God is not angry with us (redemption), will free our minds from all the fears, doubts, mistrustings, and guilt (salvation) that we all carry with us.
We’re not far apart in our thinking. Christ saves, if you understand what happened on the Cross. That understanding comes because someone will have been sent to tell us. The Cross of Christ has set us free from death! Relax, worry no longer, anguish no more! He came to set us free, and he did!
Salvation is not from hell, it is from ourselves and our deluded thinking about an angry God!
I see it this way:
Christ brought redemption to every man.
Redemption brings salvation to those who understand it and believe it is true.
Salvation brings peace.
Peace brings unity.
Unity is what God wants.
Dave, has your mind been saved from all the doubt and fear that “life” has heaped upon you? I sense that you are still worried about God, and what he might do to you if you fail him. Is your love for God genuine - because he has pulled you to himself? Or do you love God because you are fearful NOT to? Have you pushed youself onto him as a means of self-preservation?
Love that is given freely is true.
Love that is forced out of fear is not. It is contrived…. fake. I’m glad I no longer have to fake it. I am now inexplicably drawn to the source of my Life, because he made it clear that his love for me will never fail. Never.
All those years… wasted… thinking it was up to me to secure my destiny with God.
But, now my mind no longer dwells in fear and darkness, worried about my place in God, and my eternal fate. I have been set free by the Christ of God. I have no doubt! Now that’s some GOOD NEWS!!! Very GOOD NEWS!!!
Well said Bruce.
Dave, If you agree that salvation is the result of believing, would you agree that all will eventually confess belief and praise God for His glorious work?
Rom 14:11
11 for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.”
RSV
Hi fellows, sorry for the delay in responding, I’ve been exceedingly occupied the past several days.
[[Dave, I don’t think anyone here would agree that all are saved (a renewing of the mind and spirit). I believe most of us agree that there is a big difference between redemption and salvation.]]
Nevertheless, you believe that all WILL be saved, which still negates the value of the Great Commission, is not Scripturally sound, and invalidates the vitality of missions work, from the apostles of Christ on through the ages to the present day.
[[Salvation will eventually come to all because all will someday come to a full understanding of their redemption in Christ.]]
All will eventually recognize Christ as Lord, but this does by no means indicate that they will be saved unto Heaven. “It is appointed to man once to die, but after this comes judgment.” What do you do with the accounts in Revelation, where whoever did not appear in the Lamb’s Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire forever? Where does “all men being saved” reconcile with “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”? What about the words of our Lord, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” I certainly gave you enough other references clearly indicating a separation between saved and unsaved. And this separation is eternal.
Not only will “good” people go to hell, but people who believed in God, and who did works in His name!
For even the demons believe in God - “and shudder.”
[[Knowing that God is not angry with us (redemption), will free our minds from all the fears, doubts, mistrustings, and guilt (salvation) that we all carry with us.]]
I disagree. Granted, different people need to hear the different aspects of the Gospel. For example, Jesus offered the living water to the lonely outcast Samaritan at the well. But He also instructed Nicodemus that the Son of Man came not to bring peace, but a sword. He said to “come unto me, all who are weary and heavy-laden and I will give you peace” but He also advised His followers to take up the cross, and that in the world His followers will have tribulation, and that the world will hate them.
I don’t know what culture you’re living in if you think they need to hear more about how God is NOT angry with them. They don’t need the ineffective hellfire preachers brought back, but neither do they need to be told of an all-tolerant “it’s all good” God who is comfortable with them where they are. That is a lie that will “comfort” people right into hell.
[[Dave, has your mind been saved from all the doubt and fear that “life” has heaped upon you?]]
Only through Christ’s covering, and only through accepting Him as savior. Whether Calvinist or Armenian, you have to acknowledge some human role in this process, otherwise there is no free will, IE, no human role to be played at all, meaning that there is no human response needed or required, meaning Christ commanded us to preach His gospel in vain. This is not a “work” - it is acknowledging that nothing we can do can save us.
Not for naught did Christ describe hell so vividly, where the fire is not quenched, and where despair is overwhelming.
[[Or do you love God because you are fearful NOT to? Have you pushed youself onto him as a means of self-preservation?]]
I serve the living God in devotion and gratitude, but there is nothing wrong with a healthy fear of Him. He is Almighty, and to be feared as well as loved.
[[All those years… wasted… thinking it was up to me to secure my destiny with God.]]
In reality, it is up to you to let go, to die to yourself, and only then can you become who God has ordained you to be.
[[Dave, If you agree that salvation is the result of believing, would you agree that all will eventually confess belief and praise God for His glorious work? Rom 14:11 11 “for it is written, “As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall give praise to God.”]]
This is not a guarantee that God’s offer of salvation will remain standing forever. Recall that in Isaiah, we read “Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.” (Cf. 2 Chronicles 15:2, Acts 17:27, 2 Corinthians 6:1-2) These and other verses show that God will not always be available.
Spent three hours today, one on one, in my car with a 65 year old christain missionary from mexico, as u can imagine I did not fit his biblical mandate, I now believe in hell, it rode 122 miles with me,, …..
Can i get an ,,,, AMAN BROTHER,, LOL
Oh Doug, I feel your pain. I really do. It’s funny how religious people seem to hate me so much! It reminds me of a story from the bible…
A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come. There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, “Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over Ј10,000 and we will see you through.” The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, “Faith is all
that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.” The answer to that nonsense is that, if what you call your “faith” in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what He says, then it is not Faith at all-not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory about Him.
- C.S. Lewis (again), from Mere Christianity
Faith is all that matters???
Yes, but WHOSE faith?
If the requirement is for me to conjure up my own faith in a God who would just as soon send me to eternal punishment for not believing correctly, and then living my life in bondage to fear of not performing correctly… then I cannot have faith.
But, if I understand that God is all-loving, all-inclusive, and all-forgiving, then I can rest in that, and find myself to be pulled into His faith… His faith in me, and I can marvel in the relationship He has made with me!
The thing you call “sin” is a rebellous act. It is acting in ways that hurt me, and hurt other people. When I think that God only accepts me into relationship with Him because of something I do, I can never trust that relationship with assurance. If I must count on my own abilities to conjoin with my creator, I will always doubt that it is true. Why? Because I am a failure. Maybe you are not, and can trust your abilities to please God. I cannot. And without that assurance, hopelessness sets in. Self-destructiveness (sin) sets in. When my hope is only as sure as my own abilities, then reality tells me that I have no hope. Having no hope leads me to abandon interest in self, and in others.
The only thing I can have assurance in, is that Christ redeemed me to the Father without my input, permission, or knowledge. But, gaining knowledge of that, put’s my mind at ease, confident that Jesus paid the price for me, and that the Father has reached out to me in love and kindness. Knowing that sets me free to enjoy life with Him, and rest in His peace. That is so satisfying, and so fulfilling, and builds such hopefulness, that I find myself changing inside. I no longer desire the things of life which cause harm to myself and others. The appetites of power, lust, envy, etc. are fading away. I have nothing to do with it. I don’t have to make myself obey, conform, or strive in any way. His love is changing my mind about life, and His peace is drawing me into a new place… a place of incredible contentment.
This is a wonderful place to be!
Also thought you might find this interesting…
One of Lewis’s lifelong friends was also Dom Bede Griffiths. Griffiths became an ecumenical Catholic priest, and ran a Christian ashram in India were he prayed and met with Buddhist monks and Hindu priests. Near the end of Lewis’s life, Dom even got his longtime friend and fellow Christian, C.S.Lewis to admit in a letter: “Even more disturbing as you [Dom] say, is the ghastly record of Christian persecution. It had begun in Our Lord’s time - `Ye know not what spirit ye are of’ (John of all people!) I think we must fully face the fact that when Christianity does not make a man very much better, it makes him very much worse…Conversion may make of one who was, if no better, no worse than an animal, something like a devil.” [C. S. Lewis in a letter to Bede Griffiths, dated Dec. 20, 1961, not long before Lewis’ death, The Letters of C. S. Lewis, ed., W. H. Lewis, (New York: Harcourt, Brace & World, Inc., 1966), p. 301.]
God’s love and mercy endures forever and there is nothing that can stop it.I thank God that Jesus Christ made that possible for ALL PEOPLE believers and unbelievers.
Love in Christ Dan
P.S. His love draws all men to Himself not one person will be left out.
Jesus left us two injunctions: Love the Lord your God with all your heart
and your neighbor as yourself.
I’ll go with those two and leave the doctrines and dogmas, rules and regulations to the clergy and to Dave.
All will eventually recognize Christ as Lord, but this does by no means indicate that they will be saved unto Heaven. “It is appointed to man once to die, but after this comes judgment.” What do you do with the accounts in Revelation, where whoever did not appear in the Lamb’s Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire forever? Where does “all men being saved” reconcile with “Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels”? What about the words of our Lord, “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’” I certainly gave you enough other references clearly indicating a separation between saved and unsaved. And this separation is eternal.
In those passages (and a slew of others), “eternal” is a mistranslation of the Greek word “aionion”…which doesn’t mean “eternal” at all! Look at that Greek word closely. Doesn’t it look familiar to you? That’s because that’s the origin of the English word “eonian”. An “eon” is a pre-determined period of time.
I don’t dispute there will be a separation between those who’ve accepted what Christ did on the cross (my own definition of “salvation”) now and those who haven’t. What I do dispute is the duration of it. I believe the separation is eonian, NOT eternal. Those who aren’t converted (those still locked up in their stubborness (Romans 11:32)) will, during that eon, learn that God’s ways are better; and, at the end of that eon, God will restore everyone and everything to himself.
Remember the story of the Prodigal Son? After that son has squandered his entire inheritance and found himself reduced to living in a pig sty, he came to his senses and returned to his father, offering to become a hired servant (as he no longer deemed himself worthy to be called “son”). What did the father do? Throw a party! His son had come home! It didn’t matter, ultimately, what that son had done; all that mattered was that he came home.
Also, on the word fire: This isn’t always a literal fire. Fire can also be symbolic. In many passages, fire represents consummation of sin and purification. In fact, one of the words mistranslated as hell–Gehenna–was a reference to an actual place! Gehenna, at the time, was a ravine in Israel where people burned their trash. (Presently, it’s a garden. Ponder that one. ;))
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/hellfire2.htm
Let’s also take John 10:10 into consideration: “The thief is not coming except that he should be stealing and sacrificing and destroying. I (Jesus = the Word = God incarnate) came that they (EVERYONE!) may have life eonian, and have it superabundantly.” (Concordant Literal)
If God is going to “destroy” all those who don’t believe in him, then’s he’s no better than the thief (Satan/the Devil) himself! And who wants to believe in that sort of God? I don’t!
All God wants to destroy are the works of Satan himself.