I See Perfection in Hitler!
The following is for my beautiful and favorite cousin Connie in answer as to why I believe Hitler had perfection within. I hope this helps at least explain why I believe the way I do. I wrote this awhile back and have made only a few changes.
I have stated many times in the past that I see God in virtually everyone. The question always arises: Cliff, are you telling me you see God in someone like Hitler, Jeffery Dahmer, or some other really disgusting human being? The answer is always the same, it is always YES. But how can that be? Let me explain.
All of us have been trained by our religions (especially christianity) to look at a person’s performance in the flesh as to whether or not they are good or bad. They try to deny it, but the organized church does classify sins and as long as you don’t commit the really bad ones by their standards you are in the acceptable circle. I used to work with a person who would really get upset if someone uttered God’s name in an unacceptable way. This person would go on and on how disrespectful that is and they would never do such a thing. This person also judged other people very harshly when they used His name in ways they didn’t approve off.
Now here’s the rub, that same person committed adultery in their first marriage and married the person they were sleeping with. Of course they repented, so I guess in their mind they now have the right to judge others of sins they don’t commit. I have seen this same type of thing play out in almost every person I have ever met. People always judge others on things they themselves may not have a problem with, but if you look closely in their lives you WILL ALWAYS find sin. Not sometimes, not once in awhile, but ALWAYS.
Only God knows the full story of any human being’s life, and it is arrogant of any of us to think we are some how better and more deserving of Christ’s sacrifice then someone else. If you lived 200 years ago and was rich would you have owned a slave? I hope that I wouldn’t have, but I can’t say for sure. If you were taught from birth that Israel and the United States are evil empires and should be destroyed in the name of Allah, would you seek their destruction? I hope not but I can’t say for sure. If you were horribly abused as a child would you grow up and hurt others? I hope not, but I can’t say for sure.
I know that within every person that commits terrible acts against mankind there is a story and only God knows that whole story, but He has demonstrated to all us in His son Jesus the willingness to love even the worst of us. Paul makes this clear in his description of how God saved him.
1 Tim 1:12-17
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners — of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Every person I meet has sin in their life, and every one of those sins is dealt with in the same exact way. They are shown mercy because of what Christ did, not because of what they do. It is an insult to the sacrifice of Jesus to try and offer Him anything in exchange for His mercy. I love because he first loved me……..It’s not the other way around as the church often teaches.
Lastly, the main reason why I see God in every human being is because only in that vision can we enjoy peace. If I make the judgment that even ONE person should not receive His mercy I immediately condemn my self to doubting my own mercy and God’s ability to redeem. Believe me, I have been there and I know that statement is true. His blood either covers all our sins or we will live in constant doubt of our own redemption. Seeing God does not excuse the actions of the person you are looking at, but it does change how you see yourself.
Jeffery Dahmer paid for his actions in ways that we can’t imagine right here on earth, but God’s GLORY & LOVE is more then capable of destroying all that ugliness in his life and I am absolutely confident that God welcomed home the sweet little Jeffery that was created in His own image.
Oh Cliff
Where do I start Thank you so much I so needed to hear and read this
Your so right you have such a way of putting this into perspective
Thank you cliff I just don’t know what to say right now it sure changes me your right we are so quick to look to the flesh and we know better but yet we do I hate that about myself I will be the first to admit I still struggle with it especially right now
But thank you this will bring me to my kness
Thank you brother love ya
Jennifer
Thanks Jenn. Believe me when I say that I know this is not easy. I have had people in my life that have wronged me in ways that caused intense hatred in my heart but when those times came I also knew that even those people have a Father who loves them aside from their performance in the flesh because he knows their entire story. I will also say that even in my times of hatred I felt an overwelming peace because I knew that our Creator is far greater then my human hatred.
Also, the problem I always had with traditional christians is that when I would state my views that I didn’t believe anyone would suffer in eternal torment they would often get quite upset because they wanted certain people to suffer in HELL. Is God not able to save even a Hitler? Does He not have the power to refine even the most polluted of the human race? Isn’t it at least possible that when Hitler died that he faced the brightness of God’s Love that caused him to fall down on his knees in utter praise? Doesn’t God have the power to turn the story of Hitler’s life into GOOD? If the answer to these questions is NO then how can I possibly trust Him? How will I know just how good I have to be, or just what do I have to believe? But at least for me the answer to all these questions is YES, YES, YES!!!!!!!!
Let me say one more thing. I want God to destroy all the ugliness that is in me? I want him to destoy any illusions that I might have. I want him to refine me like gold and purify all the dross out of my life, and I believe He will do just that not only for me but for every single person that He ever created. We are His children and that will NEVER change. He will never let us down, not any of us.
Cliff, Thank you for this explanation. I find much to agree with in your statements. I know that everyone is made in the image of God and, therefore, God can be found in every person. I also know that each person has committed sin, especially and including me, and that it is not up to me to judge another person as worse than myself. I also agree that we are more likely to have peace if we view others from a place of mercy rather than judgment. I, too, have the earnest desire that God destroy all ugliness and illusion in me, and transform me into what He intends for me to be.
The heaven/hell issue is one that I have puzzled over for awhile. How could a God of mercy send a person to a place of everlasting torment? I personally could not get that concept to mesh with the idea of a God who is Love. Yet, in the New Testament, Jesus speaks of hell more often than He does of heaven! A few years back, I happened on some writing from a man named Edward Fudge and his explanations made a lot of sense to me. In a nutshell, and paraphrasing, the idea he presents is that hell is real, and the soul that consistently and absolutely refuses to be in relationship with God will be sent there. But, rather than surviving forever in torment, the soul is destroyed and no longer exists. Mr. Fudge offers the idea that we have no promise of immortality apart from God, and therefore will NOT survive forever in torment as is traditionally taught in most churches. We are immortal only as we are in relationship with God, and those who choose to be in relationship with God will live forever with Him in heaven. This made a lot of sense to me and kind of sums up where I am on that issue right now. As for deciding who goes where, I am perfectly happy to leave that to God! (My apologies to Mr. Fudge if I have misrepresented his view in any way, as it is not intentional. Mr Fudge is a Bible scholar and had much scripture and explanation to back up his view which I have not included, by the way.)
I will share a prayer with you that is in my devotional reading today. I think it sums up what you and I are both desiring:
“Order my disordered heart. Let me see in whoever is enemy and stranger to me the other half of myself that I refuse to embrace. Loving Spirit, perfect the image of your love in me every day. Create an inclusive heart within me. Let my heart become peaceful. May I bring peace wherever I go and to whomever I encounter.” (This comes from the journals of Thomas Merton, a favorite writer of mine. He was a Catholic monk, and therefore a part of the most organized religion that exists! Go figure!
)
Connie, I have read Mr. Fudge’s writings on this also and agree he has some wonderful things to say, but there is also much more to say on this subject of HELL. Check out the following article below on the subject of hell. I don’t agree with everything they say but they make some great points: http://www.tentmaker.org/books/GatesOfHell.html
Thanks, Cliff. I will do that.
Cliff
I also want
God to destroy all the illusions and anger or whatever is within me thats not good
Yet like you say in even those times there is still that peace and I know Father loves them and I also want to love with his love.
Thats the truth Christians want people to go to hell and the friends I once had don’t want anything to do with me now because of the beleive that God has and will save everyone. But His grace is sufficent for me.
I am so thankful that He loves us no matter what.
But I never did quite understand being in the flesh and not seeing anyone after the flesh anymore
You sure gave me the great understanding of it thanks
Jennifer
In John 12 Jesus said now judgement of this world has come.To me He took the judgement for all sin.Now there is nothing but love and mercy for all.
I pray that His love and mercy be so real in my heart and mind that I nolong want to judge people.I just thank God that He has given us a place to to have nothing but love and grace.
I believe that He has just begining to open the door to people hearts and minds for this wonderful gospel of love and grace.
Love in Christ Dan
Well said Dan. I think the time has arrived for this world to truly understand that there is no bad news in the good news.
Also, the problem I always had with traditional christians is that when I would state my views that I didn’t believe anyone would suffer in eternal torment they would often get quite upset because they wanted certain people to suffer in HELL. (Cliff)
This is why I believe many traditional Christians have trouble with the concept of Universal Restoration/the Gospel of Grace and Peace in general–traditional Christians want certain people to be punished that they deem unworthy of grace and mercy. It goes all the way back to Tertullian and St. Augustine (the former once writing that he revelled in the idea of seeing the unworthy burn forever).
Meanwhile, on the subject of hell, I’ll keep it simple. If you have a copy of Strongs Concordance (or any concordance, really) and look up the word “hell”. Concentrate on its appearance in the New Testament. Also look up “everlasting”, “eternal”, “forever”, and the like. Let’s just say what you find out may rock your world.
Great point Shelly. When you really dig into what the orginal words mean it makes a major difference in how you see this subject.
“Also, the problem I always had with traditional christians is that when I would state my views that I didn’t believe anyone would suffer in eternal torment they would often get quite upset because they wanted certain people to suffer in HELL.” (Cliff)
“This is why I believe many traditional Christians have trouble with the concept of Universal Restoration/the Gospel of Grace and Peace in general–traditional Christians want certain people to be punished that they deem unworthy of grace and mercy. (Shelly)
The above statements do not accurately represent the attitude of most “traditional” Christians that I know and have known through the years. I think it is unwise and unkind to paint with a broad brush in this way, and does nothing to further a rational discussion on any subject. Just my opinion.
Good morning
I made a decision not to read the article you posted, and this is why. I think because of the caption you have used and the potential pain it would cause countless people who have experienced the horrors of Hitler. There are much better ways to show the LOVE of CHRIST, sensationalist Captions such as this definately are not it.
It’s been my experience that most christians have felt that way. They want to believe that they will be rewarded for their goodness, and others will be punished for their evil. They might not want to admit it, but if one digs a bit, it uncovers.
I felt that way most of my life. I never would have admitted it though. Thank God my heart was awakened to a new love.
I saw this on the “Life…” blog (see blogroll)
Redemption and Creation…
Is man sorry first,
and then forgiven,
or forgiven first
and then sorry?
If he is sorry first,
then God forgives His friends,
but if he is forgiven first,
then God forgives His enemies.
We don’t need a God
who forgives His friends.
Did Christ die before
or after Adam fell?
In time, after Adam fell,
but in eternity, before Adam fell.
In the mind of God
Adam was forgiven first
and then created.
This is what the”good news”of man’s redemption is all about.
He was redeemed first
and then created!…
I am not forgiven because I repent.
I repent because I am all all ready forgiven!
2 Cor. 5:19 Amen
John T, are you saying the people who have suffered under Hitler have the right to hate him?… even condemn him?
Will they also hate Cliff, because he shows unconditional love for people, including Hitler?
Is it your opinion that Hitler has gone to hell? Will you, or won’t you go to hell? What is the difference between you and Hitler? What is the difference between you and Hitler in the eyes of Jesus?
Just wondering.
Personally, I have to believe that God forgives Hitler because, if He can offer that much forgiveness, I can feel that I am forgiven. If He can’t forgive that much, where is the line? At what point is someone evil enough to not receive God’s forgiveness? That is a scary thought to me. And it’s exactly what the church uses to manipulate people into their control. It is how they controlled me for all those years. I wanted so desperately to win the approval of the church, because that increased my chances of being approved by God. After all, it’s HIS church, isn’t it?
I think the church doesn’t have a clue who God is…
Someone wrote:
I think it is unwise and unkind to paint with a broad brush in this way, and does nothing to further a rational discussion on any subject. Just my opinion.
Geo here:
Thank you for your opinion. And it is just that, yours.
We all have the right to our own opinion. And mine is the opposite of yours on this topic. For to many centuries the church has sought to squelch the voices of peoples thoughts in the name of “God”. We will not do that here at Bold Grace. We will not seek to discourage people to speak exactly what they feel nor will we discourage people of a different point of view as yourself on this topic to cease to voice their opinion of anything. I know you may not consciously be seeking to squelch discussion but when you call others unwise then it has the same effect that church leaders had on many of us in the past when we were told to “be quiet in the name of unity” We at Bold Grace will not be quiet nor will we encourage others to either. We will speak and if it is unwise in anyone view then so be it. But Freedom to speak and express in love is what we will encourage. All opposing views are welcome here but know this we reserve the right to express our view also. That being said thanks to all in the conversation. You ALL are Righteous, Perfect & Holy!
Peace
Geo
John T.
Welcome to Bold Grace
Do we know you?
If not please leave a contact link and also tell us more about yourself.
Peace
Geo
John T.
I would bet dollars to doughnuts that you have already read this post or that you will read it in the near future! You cannot resist it.
Peace
Geo
Connie, I speak from a great deal of experience in what I so confidently state concerning most christians. I worked within the organized church for over 35 years and always preached and taught about God’s unconditional love. At every step of the way I was challenged about people going to HELL and NO ONE came to my corner to even defend my right to my opinion. As long as you toed the line and stayed with in acceptable doctrine you were OK, but the minute you expressed questions that contradicted the norm you were considered suspect. When I finally began about 4 years ago to preach this gospel of grace and peace in it’s fullness I was branded a false teacher and someone who DESERVED HELL. So, when I make statements such as the above I speak the truth. I will also say that at NO TIME did I ever attact back and I always tried to keep the lines of communication open, but not one person in traditional christianity was ever willing to allow me to come to their church and speak what I believe the bible teaches. If they are so open as you say then why is that? Be honest, would your church allow me to come and hold a meeting teaching Paul’s gospel of grace and peace? I think not. As Geo has said, All people are welcome here regardless of where they stand and we will always accept them but we don’t have to agree. When I was still preaching there were local churches who placed a packet on the our church doorstep that said I was leading everyone in my congregation to HELL. When I put out the challenge for any of the local preachers to come and debate me publicly not one of them ever took me up on it. I was even willing to go to their churches. Now I speak the truth as I see it and no one has the power to shut me up because I believe with ALL MY HEART in God’s unconditional LOVE. In every church I ever attended there were always conditions.
John T, You are welcome here even if you don’t like the title to my posts. And if I am to be condemned for standing up for God’s complete and uncondtional love then so be it, but I think the day will come that your heart will have to be reconciled with the contradictions of the religion you worship. And I hope for your sake it will be sooner rather then later.
thank you. i would love to repost this on my blog and quote you if that is okay. this is exactly what i have come to understand.
Hello Again
I have no link to go to. I am from Ottawa Canada. 43yrs old. No specific religion though I like the idea of grace. Whether I forgive Hitler or not is irrelevant. I think just because of the nature of what happened, we should tread lightly when we speak of it. Im not condemning perse. Just trying to bring another voice. I am searching like the rest of us. Im just trying to become a little nicer along the way. Hope to get to know some of you better also.
John T,
Welcome again
And thank you for your gracious tone and thoughts. We like hearing other voices around here and hope you will stay and get to know us. And becoming a nicer human is a good thing. But we at Bold Grace want you to know that we see you as Righteous, Perfect and Holy just as you are! That being said we also hope that we can become more nice and loving not because of our fear of God but because LOVE is what we all are weather we act as such or not. Thanks again for contributing and we hope you become a regular at Bold Grace.
Peace
Geo
thanks………………….Perfectly imperfect maybe lol
No John,
Perfectly, PERFECT!
You ARE weather you accept it or not PERFECT in the eyes of our Creator! When you begin to accept that truth that you ARE, then your whole outlook on life, the world, and others begins to miraculously change. And it does so without your trying to change! Strange but TRUE!
Peace
Geo
We can be perfect and still need change…………….there is a format to this world………and when we do certain actions we get certain results…many times the results are not healthy on many fronts.
I just watched the mind of Manson last night and I must say that Like Hitler this was a man who was lost somewhere in his own mind. He had a horrible child hood and when hearing his story it gave me a better understanding of how this child who was abandoned by the ones he loved was not abandoned by God.
Of course I feel sick to my stomach when I think of all of the deaths that occurred by these people. It blows my mind to think of what they did. If it were me or my family I would be devastated, but Hitler, Manson, Dahmer, etc…they all have stories. I have a story. You have a story. Thankfully God knows our stories and he doesn’t judge us. He even walks with us through our guilty consciouses and shame and he suffers with us through the consequences. Even though I may see myself as imperfect he see’s me as perfect. Fortunately, for me I have a wonderful family who support me and fortunately, I have a sane mind to help me grow from the mistakes and decisions I make.
Cliff (and all),
It was not my desire to cause a problem with my remarks. And not my desire to squelch anyone’s point of view. In looking back on my remarks, they sound a little snippy and I apologize for that. I’ll blame it on the limitations of trying to communicate via the written word, which doesn’t allow the non-vebal message to get through.
I do not claim that most traditional Christians are open to the point of view that you are espousing, most likely they find it threatening. But, I still do not think it is fair to judge the hearts of all those who do not agree with you on this, and that is what I was objecting to. It sounds like you were, quite frankly, abused by some within the ranks of traditional Christianity, Cliff, and I can see why you might come to the conclusion you have regarding their hearts. But I think it is important not to allow that experience to color your view of all of those who still meet in a more or less traditional way for worship. In my estimation, most believe what they do simply because it’s what they’ve always been taught, not from any sort of need to see the wicked thrown into a fiery pit of hell. I had an uncle (you probably remember him well, Cliff) who was an eloquent speaker and had a flair for the dramatic and he could really preach some fire and brimstone sermons. Not because he wanted to see people go to hell, but because he wanted to warn them not to go there! Whether I now agree with his theology or not, I believe his heart was in the right place and he was doing what he felt God called him to do.
Actually, it’s kind of ironic that I felt the need to speak up on behalf of “traditional” Christians. The church I worship with has been written up in local papers on more than one occasion over the past few years because we don’t follow the party line in one way or another. So, I know how ugly these folks can be. Still, I think it is important for me to show mercy, not judgment, even to them!
Again, I apologize to all that I may have offended. I’ll bow out of this discussion and trust that I have your forgiveness. May God grant you continued joy and peace.
Connie,
You have NO need to apologize to anyone here. We love you more than you could ever know! There is nothing to forgive as you have not done anything that needs forgiveness. You are correct that mercy ALWAYS triumphs over judgment. In the end of things that is also true of our Father in Heaven. His Mercy won 2008 years ago and ALL Judgement ceased at Calvary. So please do not bow out of this or any other discussion here at Bold Grace. We greatly value and desire your participation.
Peace
Geo
I think maybe the point is being missed. NOT that we arent ok(saved), but that we dont see ourselves as ok(saved). And because of this our actions are less than perfect. Which is why we need transformation.
Connie, like Geo I have taken absolutely no offense from any of your comments and it is exactly the reason we have this site is so that everyone can come and express just how they feel. I would like to clarify one thing though. I will make observations about what I believe to be teaching that is contrary to the Gospel of Grace & Peace by the traditional church, but I have never at any point condemned (judged) anyone for their particular stand on religion. Condemning them or judging them would contradict everything I teach because as Geo says, we here at Boldgrace believe everyone is perfect, holy, and righteous in God’s eyes. I can’t say the same for most christians. With the exception of a few most would condemn me. It is the human mind that needs saving or as Paul says: Renewed. Let me give an example: If in my mind I think I am a dog, does that make me a dog? Even if I bark like a dog, or lap water like a dog, does that make me a dog? NO, only in my mind. Well, this is what I believe about most humans, they think they are flawed, they act like they are flawed, but that doesn’t make them flawed, only in their minds. Jesus came to save us from the LIE that our minds have accepted, the illusion that we are unacceptable to God. The entire law was to show us how ridiculas it is to pretend we can do something to be pleasing to God. Once one sees his perfection it changes everything inside you, and peace is the result. Please, please, please, never apologize for anything you say. We love hearing your views and we feel quite able to express ours. I will always love you even if you are wrong, HA HA.
Michelle, Please feel free to borrown anything on our site and thanks so much for your comments.
A big hello to all the participants. I have followed the post and comments here and it has become apparent to me the limits of our written language. Wouldn’t it be great if we all could instantly be seated comfortably, each of us, in a easy chair, discussing these issues face to face. Yet, even then there might be misunderstandings because of particular choices of words to present our point of view. I believe every one here who participated has done so honestly, trying to express a point of view. No malice intended, no distrust, only honest expression. I thank you all for that. You don’t find that quality present on many blogs I visit. You can be met with disdain if you do not agree with a particular POV being espoused. Could it be that a spirit of love exists here. We are all trying to be our best to “be” ourselves. Thanks for “being” yourselves.
Im curious. What is wrong with apologizing if you feel your behaviour is not very nice? I try to teach my children this. And I believe that people appreciate it because it acknowledges them and their value. I believe if someone does that for me the best thing I can do is say Thanks.
awesome, thanks
I agree John…….Thanks
Michelle, where is your blog? I would be glad to put you on our blogroll.
Connie, I also spoke from experience*, as well as from a slightly scholastic standpoint. If I came across too strong or too harsh, I apologize. It wasn’t my intention.
I think maybe the point is being missed. NOT that we arent ok(saved), but that we dont see ourselves as ok(saved). And because of this our actions are less than perfect. Which is why we need transformation. (John T.)
I agree.
* I still attend a traditional Christian church. Although grace is taught, hell is also a reality to the members of the congregation, not to mention all the other–dare I say–”baggage” that, IMO, the traditional Christian churches teach. If I even dared to suggest that hell–as they perceive it–does not exist; or that, one day, God would restore ALL CREATION to himself, that ALL would be welcomed into the New Jerusalem by our Creator and Saviour, I would be kicked out as a heretic.