Comments on: I See Perfection in Hitler! http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/ It's more wonderful than you can imagine! Wed, 07 Jan 2009 19:10:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: shelly http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1979 shelly Mon, 18 Feb 2008 03:03:09 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1979 Connie, I also spoke from experience*, as well as from a slightly scholastic standpoint. If I came across too strong or too harsh, I apologize. It wasn't my intention. <i>I think maybe the point is being missed. NOT that we arent ok(saved), but that we dont see ourselves as ok(saved). And because of this our actions are less than perfect. Which is why we need transformation.</i> (John T.) I agree. * I still attend a traditional Christian church. Although grace is taught, hell is also a reality to the members of the congregation, not to mention all the other--dare I say--"baggage" that, IMO, the traditional Christian churches teach. If I even dared to suggest that hell--as they perceive it--does not exist; or that, one day, God would restore ALL CREATION to himself, that ALL would be welcomed into the New Jerusalem by our Creator and Saviour, I would be kicked out as a heretic. Connie, I also spoke from experience*, as well as from a slightly scholastic standpoint. If I came across too strong or too harsh, I apologize. It wasn’t my intention.

I think maybe the point is being missed. NOT that we arent ok(saved), but that we dont see ourselves as ok(saved). And because of this our actions are less than perfect. Which is why we need transformation. (John T.)

I agree.

* I still attend a traditional Christian church. Although grace is taught, hell is also a reality to the members of the congregation, not to mention all the other–dare I say–”baggage” that, IMO, the traditional Christian churches teach. If I even dared to suggest that hell–as they perceive it–does not exist; or that, one day, God would restore ALL CREATION to himself, that ALL would be welcomed into the New Jerusalem by our Creator and Saviour, I would be kicked out as a heretic.

]]> By: Cliff http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1978 Cliff Mon, 18 Feb 2008 00:05:36 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1978 Michelle, where is your blog? I would be glad to put you on our blogroll. Michelle, where is your blog? I would be glad to put you on our blogroll.

]]> By: Cliff http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1977 Cliff Mon, 18 Feb 2008 00:04:03 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1977 I agree John.......Thanks I agree John…….Thanks

]]> By: Michelle http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1976 Michelle Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:26:34 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1976 awesome, thanks awesome, thanks

]]> By: John T. http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1975 John T. Sun, 17 Feb 2008 23:04:57 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1975 Im curious. What is wrong with apologizing if you feel your behaviour is not very nice? I try to teach my children this. And I believe that people appreciate it because it acknowledges them and their value. I believe if someone does that for me the best thing I can do is say Thanks. Im curious. What is wrong with apologizing if you feel your behaviour is not very nice? I try to teach my children this. And I believe that people appreciate it because it acknowledges them and their value. I believe if someone does that for me the best thing I can do is say Thanks.

]]> By: Don R http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1974 Don R Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:46:41 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1974 A big hello to all the participants. I have followed the post and comments here and it has become apparent to me the limits of our written language. Wouldn't it be great if we all could instantly be seated comfortably, each of us, in a easy chair, discussing these issues face to face. Yet, even then there might be misunderstandings because of particular choices of words to present our point of view. I believe every one here who participated has done so honestly, trying to express a point of view. No malice intended, no distrust, only honest expression. I thank you all for that. You don't find that quality present on many blogs I visit. You can be met with disdain if you do not agree with a particular POV being espoused. Could it be that a spirit of love exists here. We are all trying to be our best to "be" ourselves. Thanks for "being" yourselves. A big hello to all the participants. I have followed the post and comments here and it has become apparent to me the limits of our written language. Wouldn’t it be great if we all could instantly be seated comfortably, each of us, in a easy chair, discussing these issues face to face. Yet, even then there might be misunderstandings because of particular choices of words to present our point of view. I believe every one here who participated has done so honestly, trying to express a point of view. No malice intended, no distrust, only honest expression. I thank you all for that. You don’t find that quality present on many blogs I visit. You can be met with disdain if you do not agree with a particular POV being espoused. Could it be that a spirit of love exists here. We are all trying to be our best to “be” ourselves. Thanks for “being” yourselves.

]]> By: Cliff http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1973 Cliff Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:37:31 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1973 Connie, like Geo I have taken absolutely no offense from any of your comments and it is exactly the reason we have this site is so that everyone can come and express just how they feel. I would like to clarify one thing though. I will make observations about what I believe to be teaching that is contrary to the Gospel of Grace & Peace by the traditional church, but I have never at any point condemned (judged) anyone for their particular stand on religion. Condemning them or judging them would contradict everything I teach because as Geo says, we here at Boldgrace believe everyone is perfect, holy, and righteous in God's eyes. I can't say the same for most christians. With the exception of a few most would condemn me. It is the human mind that needs saving or as Paul says: Renewed. Let me give an example: If in my mind I think I am a dog, does that make me a dog? Even if I bark like a dog, or lap water like a dog, does that make me a dog? NO, only in my mind. Well, this is what I believe about most humans, they think they are flawed, they act like they are flawed, but that doesn't make them flawed, only in their minds. Jesus came to save us from the LIE that our minds have accepted, the illusion that we are unacceptable to God. The entire law was to show us how ridiculas it is to pretend we can do something to be pleasing to God. Once one sees his perfection it changes everything inside you, and peace is the result. Please, please, please, never apologize for anything you say. We love hearing your views and we feel quite able to express ours. I will always love you even if you are wrong, HA HA. Michelle, Please feel free to borrown anything on our site and thanks so much for your comments. Connie, like Geo I have taken absolutely no offense from any of your comments and it is exactly the reason we have this site is so that everyone can come and express just how they feel. I would like to clarify one thing though. I will make observations about what I believe to be teaching that is contrary to the Gospel of Grace & Peace by the traditional church, but I have never at any point condemned (judged) anyone for their particular stand on religion. Condemning them or judging them would contradict everything I teach because as Geo says, we here at Boldgrace believe everyone is perfect, holy, and righteous in God’s eyes. I can’t say the same for most christians. With the exception of a few most would condemn me. It is the human mind that needs saving or as Paul says: Renewed. Let me give an example: If in my mind I think I am a dog, does that make me a dog? Even if I bark like a dog, or lap water like a dog, does that make me a dog? NO, only in my mind. Well, this is what I believe about most humans, they think they are flawed, they act like they are flawed, but that doesn’t make them flawed, only in their minds. Jesus came to save us from the LIE that our minds have accepted, the illusion that we are unacceptable to God. The entire law was to show us how ridiculas it is to pretend we can do something to be pleasing to God. Once one sees his perfection it changes everything inside you, and peace is the result. Please, please, please, never apologize for anything you say. We love hearing your views and we feel quite able to express ours. I will always love you even if you are wrong, HA HA.

Michelle, Please feel free to borrown anything on our site and thanks so much for your comments.

]]> By: John T. http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1972 John T. Sun, 17 Feb 2008 22:25:30 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1972 I think maybe the point is being missed. NOT that we arent ok(saved), but that we dont see ourselves as ok(saved). And because of this our actions are less than perfect. Which is why we need transformation. I think maybe the point is being missed. NOT that we arent ok(saved), but that we dont see ourselves as ok(saved). And because of this our actions are less than perfect. Which is why we need transformation.

]]> By: geo http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1971 geo Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:58:24 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1971 Connie, You have NO need to apologize to anyone here. We love you more than you could ever know! There is nothing to forgive as you have not done anything that needs forgiveness. You are correct that mercy ALWAYS triumphs over judgment. In the end of things that is also true of our Father in Heaven. His Mercy won 2008 years ago and ALL Judgement ceased at Calvary. So please do not bow out of this or any other discussion here at Bold Grace. We greatly value and desire your participation. Peace Geo Connie,
You have NO need to apologize to anyone here. We love you more than you could ever know! There is nothing to forgive as you have not done anything that needs forgiveness. You are correct that mercy ALWAYS triumphs over judgment. In the end of things that is also true of our Father in Heaven. His Mercy won 2008 years ago and ALL Judgement ceased at Calvary. So please do not bow out of this or any other discussion here at Bold Grace. We greatly value and desire your participation.

Peace
Geo

]]> By: Connie Lard http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1970 Connie Lard Sun, 17 Feb 2008 21:48:26 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/02/15/i-see-perfection-in-hitler/#comment-1970 Cliff (and all), It was not my desire to cause a problem with my remarks. And not my desire to squelch anyone's point of view. In looking back on my remarks, they sound a little snippy and I apologize for that. I'll blame it on the limitations of trying to communicate via the written word, which doesn't allow the non-vebal message to get through. I do not claim that most traditional Christians are open to the point of view that you are espousing, most likely they find it threatening. But, I still do not think it is fair to judge the hearts of all those who do not agree with you on this, and that is what I was objecting to. It sounds like you were, quite frankly, abused by some within the ranks of traditional Christianity, Cliff, and I can see why you might come to the conclusion you have regarding their hearts. But I think it is important not to allow that experience to color your view of all of those who still meet in a more or less traditional way for worship. In my estimation, most believe what they do simply because it's what they've always been taught, not from any sort of need to see the wicked thrown into a fiery pit of hell. I had an uncle (you probably remember him well, Cliff) who was an eloquent speaker and had a flair for the dramatic and he could really preach some fire and brimstone sermons. Not because he wanted to see people go to hell, but because he wanted to warn them not to go there! Whether I now agree with his theology or not, I believe his heart was in the right place and he was doing what he felt God called him to do. Actually, it's kind of ironic that I felt the need to speak up on behalf of "traditional" Christians. The church I worship with has been written up in local papers on more than one occasion over the past few years because we don't follow the party line in one way or another. So, I know how ugly these folks can be. Still, I think it is important for me to show mercy, not judgment, even to them! :) Again, I apologize to all that I may have offended. I'll bow out of this discussion and trust that I have your forgiveness. May God grant you continued joy and peace. Cliff (and all),

It was not my desire to cause a problem with my remarks. And not my desire to squelch anyone’s point of view. In looking back on my remarks, they sound a little snippy and I apologize for that. I’ll blame it on the limitations of trying to communicate via the written word, which doesn’t allow the non-vebal message to get through.

I do not claim that most traditional Christians are open to the point of view that you are espousing, most likely they find it threatening. But, I still do not think it is fair to judge the hearts of all those who do not agree with you on this, and that is what I was objecting to. It sounds like you were, quite frankly, abused by some within the ranks of traditional Christianity, Cliff, and I can see why you might come to the conclusion you have regarding their hearts. But I think it is important not to allow that experience to color your view of all of those who still meet in a more or less traditional way for worship. In my estimation, most believe what they do simply because it’s what they’ve always been taught, not from any sort of need to see the wicked thrown into a fiery pit of hell. I had an uncle (you probably remember him well, Cliff) who was an eloquent speaker and had a flair for the dramatic and he could really preach some fire and brimstone sermons. Not because he wanted to see people go to hell, but because he wanted to warn them not to go there! Whether I now agree with his theology or not, I believe his heart was in the right place and he was doing what he felt God called him to do.

Actually, it’s kind of ironic that I felt the need to speak up on behalf of “traditional” Christians. The church I worship with has been written up in local papers on more than one occasion over the past few years because we don’t follow the party line in one way or another. So, I know how ugly these folks can be. Still, I think it is important for me to show mercy, not judgment, even to them! :)

Again, I apologize to all that I may have offended. I’ll bow out of this discussion and trust that I have your forgiveness. May God grant you continued joy and peace.

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