He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%203&version=50

Basically the condemnation Jesus is talking about isn’t a literal burning place after we die but not being able to see what God has done for us. From what I can infer, the condemnation is now.

In this same chapter Jesus compared being born again to the direction the wind blows. Space is limited for me to post all the verses but the gateway link will lead to them. Do you decide to let the wind blow on you or does the wind blow on everyone regardless of whether they want it or not?

Back to what I was saying about condemnation, maybe this analogy can better explain the difference between salvation and redemption. Let’s say the President of the US decides to pay everyone’s tax debts. It doesn’t matter how small or large it is. There are no exceptions. It’s already been paid for whether one asked or not. However, let’s say most people do NOT believe that their taxes have been fully paid. They are still living their lives as if they had debts and continue to struggle to pay their debts. Does this change the president’s original action? No, but people miss out on enjoying the benefits of having no debt.

Jesus has already paid for any sin we could ever commit regardless of who we are. However, how can we enjoy the peace if we don’t believe this fact? Today most people try to please God through their doctrines, good works, etc and don’t understand that Jesus took care of all of that. When we try to please God through our own efforts we will be condemned, not b/c God is mad at us but because we can never live up to the standards for pleasing God. Believing is not about having the right knowledge or making something happen, it is about embracing the One who got it right for us.

Sorry for the length. This post is quite inadequate as there’s much more to this subject. A better explaination can be found here http://gospelogic.com/redemption_1_transcript.htm I hope you have a good day and come back.

You have helped me be bold enough to type a post! I’ve been lurking here for quite a while too.

I would be interested in an answer to this question from any Bold Grace bloggers who might have time to reply.

I am trying to grasp the concept of redemption and salvation being different.

However, if the outcome of redemption is eternal life (the opposite of perishing) and the outcome of salvation is being made whole, doesn’t the verse, “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life” seem to indicate a requirement for personal belief in order to be redeemed?

Thanks.
Julia

I think the time of the fullfillment was at the Cross of Christ.

Peace and again WELCOME!

Peace
Geo

I checked out that website you posted……………….All I can say is “wow, someone has way to much time on their hands”!!!

1. _*This is the most important question I can think of (for me). WHY*_
do you believe that Jesus has redeemed everybody, when there are verses
in the bible that seem to say that “Jesus will return to punish those
who have not obeyed the gospel of Christ”, or something to that effect?
In light of that, how do you defend the position that Christ has
redeemed everyone?

I think you’re confusing “redeemed” with “saved”. They are two totally different things.

“Redeemed” would be like you turning in a coupon or a gift card at your local store in exchange for purchases. On the Cross, Christ redeemed, or “bought”, us from the Curse of the Law; and, in exchange, he was cursed. He took on our sin, our imperfections, everything.

“Saved”, in the Greek (hat-tip to Strong’s Concordance), is the word “sozo”, which means “delivered, healed, rescued”. While I believe that ALL were redeemed at the cross, I don’t believe everyone is saved; however, I also believe all WILL be saved, as it is God’s will, according to 1 Timothy.

3. If we are all redeemed (because of Christ) & truly FREE (to do
whatever), why did Paul the Apostle write so many clear instructions of
things that certain groups of people should & should not do? In one case
Paul said “Flee fornication.” Why would he say that, if they were free
to do anything they wanted? I’m just throwing that out as one example.

Okay, back up. If you’re implying some of us believe we have free will, I have to vehemently disagree with that. If man did have free will, that would mean God is not an all-powerful being; and man’s will would be more important, which is wrong.

In Romans, it says that it is GOD who “locks” people up “in stubbornness/disobedience”, so that he may show mercy to ALL. There are a plethora of other verses in the Bible that say that it is GOD who causes everything to happen. You may then say, “But what about what happened at the Garden of Eden?” Well, if Adam and Eve did not eat from the “forbidden” tree, then we would not have needed a saviour.

4. What is your position of the book of Revelation as a whole, and the
Lake of Fire in particular?

To me, Revelation is one of the more fascinating books of the Bible; and I’ve heard many views and interpretations of it. Some believe it has to do with the fall of Babylon or Rome. Others think many of the events written in it have yet to happen; and many of the things in it are symbolic.

I’m in the latter camp.

As for the “Lake of Fire”, I think it’s figurative for purging. Also, consider this: how can hell purge itself? (It can’t. FWIW, the word “hell” appears nowhere in the original Greek.)

5. What, in your opinion, did Paul mean when he said that the
Corinthians should give a man over to Satan for the destruction of the
flesh? If Satan was defeated at the cross, what in the world was Paul
talking about?

Nothing to do with redemption. Read the entire chapter.

http://www.concordant.org/version/CLNT/007FirstCorinthians/007FirstCorinthians05.html

On this passage…

It is from 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10

“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”

Again, fire is symbolic for purging.

One of the words mistranslated as “hell” is “Gehenna”. In ancient times, Gehenna was a landfill of sorts, where people took their garbage (NOT their good stuff) to be burned. (Today it’s a botanical garden.) This word pops up once in the Gospels.

Now I’m going to show you the same passage…this time from the Concordant Literal version (which is a waaay more accurate translation than any of the mainstream ones, I believe). Emphasis is mine.

7 and to you who are being afflicted, ease, with us, at the unveiling of the Lord Jesus from heaven with His powerful messengers,
8 in flaming fire, dealing out vengeance to those who are not acquainted with God and those who are not obeying the evangel of our Lord Jesus Christ –
9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength –
10 whenever He may be coming to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all who believe (seeing that our testimony to you was believed) in that day.

Eonian extermination, NOT “everlasting punishment”. The words “everlasting” and “eternal” NEVER appear in the original Greek text. The Greek word is “aionian” = “eonian” in English. An eon is a set period of time; it has a beginning and an end. What is being, or will be, exterminated? The sin of unbelief. In 1 Timothy, it says that “ALL will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth”. In other verses, it says that Christ will be ALL IN ALL. Toward the end of Revelation, Jesus says, “Behold, I make ALL THINGS new!” All things. Universal Restoration. God restoring everyone and everything to himself.

Another site I recommend…
http://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/topics.htm

If you could send me your e-mail I would be glad to send you a more in depth answer by a good friend of mine….Kevin Beck. Just e-mail me at cliff@boldgrace.com and I will send you the article by Kevin on 2 Thess

Let me first say that I do not speak for the entire BoldGrace community on this. There are many views and this is simply mine.

The entire book of 2 Thess comes out of the same warnings that Jesus gave in Mathew 24 and also in the book of Revelations. He is talking about the Destruction of Jerusalem which was the final fall of the old covenant. We know from history that this took place in 70 AD because that was when the Temple was destroyed along with the birth rights showing proof that you were a true Jew dating back to Abraham. The day of the Lord that he speaks about was at hand. In the book of Revelations the Angel said “NOT to seal up the book because the time was near”. Jesus speaking in Mathew 24 said: “This generation shall not pass away until all these things be fulfilled.” Study all the things he speaks about in that chapter and you will realize Paul is talking about the same judgement. The judgement was the total and complete destrution of the old covenant of self rigtheousness. No SELF RIGHTEOUS PERSON WILL EVER STAND IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD. Yes, the reality of our redemption took place at the cross, but the removal the old covenant physically was done in 70AD + salvation has always been ongoing since that time. Paul also speaks of this in the book of Galations when he talks about how Isaac & Ishmael dwelled together for a time representing how the Old and the New covenants dwelled together for a time.
Gal 4:22-31
22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar.
25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
27 For it is written: “Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband.”
28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.
29 At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now.
30 But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman’s son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman’s son.”
31 Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

And by the way, God does destroy all self righteousness in us as well as he did in them over 2000 years ago. The same people that Paul speaks of being punished with everlasting destruction from the presense of the Lord are the very Jews who were persecuting the true believers of Paul’s day. Paul also says in Romans 11 that these same Jews would eventually find their salvation. Listen: Rom 11:25-36
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.
26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins.”
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies on your account; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs,
29 for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience,
31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy as a result of God’s mercy to you.
32 For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable his judgments, and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 “Who has known the mind of the Lord? Or who has been his counselor?”
35 “Who has ever given to God, that God should repay him?”
36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be the glory forever! Amen.

Now of course there is much more to this and one comment could not possibly contain all the study I have done on this subject, but I can send you to a good site that will allow you to study this on your own.
http://www.presence.tv/cms/index.php

If you interpret the book of 2 Thess like the traditional churches usually do you would have to be scared out of your wits. Is that really what God was saying to us?

I could go on and on about this but who really wants to read all this. I apologize for the length of this comment, but there is no quick way to answer these things.