The Better Way!
Yesterday a friend and I were discussing the values of taking your children to church. He said he thought that even though there were a lot of negatives that it was still better then not teaching them anything. I soundly disagree with that. My wife and I did take our children to church and they became beautiful human beings in spite of it. That happened because we constantly were pointing out to them where much of the churches teaching was wrong. We taught them to truly love unconditionally. We taught them that the fellow down at the bar on Saturday nights was just as loved by God as those sitting in the pews on Sunday morning. We taught them to trust their hearts and believe in their perfect creation.
I also said if I had it to do over again I would choose the BETTER WAY. The better way is to never introduce your children to the trap of religion. The better way would also include the constant reinforcement that they are loved at all times by both their parents and the God who created them. The better way is to truly have faith in this process we call life learning from everything that happens to us.
He argued that for those who don’t have parents like myself and my wife that church is still a better alternative then not being taught anything at all. I will agree with him that could be true but it still does not make it the BETTER WAY. It is simply the lesser of two poor ways of living. Both have their traps and I’m not sure that in the final analysis that either of those ways will lead a person to true PEACE with God.
On the other hand, when a child grows up in an environment where their love from God is NEVER doubted regardless of their performance that child will walk hand in hand with God every step of the way without fear.
In all cases humans will face obstacles, tragedies, hardships, pain, joy, pleasure, love, and a full array of emotions. But I ask, who will be more equipped to live this life victoriously? Will it be the church goer who is constantly taught that as long as they do good God will stand by them? Will it be the person who doesn’t go to church but lives in constant doubt that they are accepted by God? Or will it be the person who from the cradle to the grave believed they were loved a moment in between?
As for me and my house, we will choose the BETTER WAY!
Wow! This post really spoke to me. I’m in my late teens and I’ve been raised in church my whole life. I don’t know how it is where you went but here there is some kind of self-righteousness and critical attitudes towards those who don’t attend church.
Yet my generation is probably the least church going in this country. Rev Eric Stetson wrote this article awhile back explaining why. http://www.christianuniversalist.org/articles/reinvigoratingchurch.html
Being a young person myself I have to agree with him. I remember being as young as elementary school scared that Jesus would catch me doing something bad or being “left behind”. The adults who taught me that meant well but it’s still very damaging. Even today I’m struggling to shift my views of God to truly loving Him instead of having to love Him.
Last summer I met a girl online who was very serious about her faith. She was a great girl yet she constantly feared God would send her to hell b/c she had sexual thoughts. Another girl wanted to forgive ppl b/c she feared if she didn’t she’d get left behind in the rapture. This makes me really sad. If you read the article I cited earlier you can see why people my age either get into hard core fundamentalism or leave Christianity altogether.
I’ll be leaving home in the fall to finish my college degree. To be honest I’m probably not going to be looking for a church. I don’t know if this will change or not. It’s amazing how so many church leaders can’t figure out why so many young people are dropping out of church. They blame our schools, culture, MTV, etc. when it had nothing to do with that. We need to know that God really IS unconditional love. Many churches love using that phrase “God is love” but it rings empty and hollow to many of us. Sorry this post was so long but this really hits home to me. Didn’t you used to be a pastor? How did your church react to your new understanding of God?
Kiara, Thankyou for you comment. You are the example of what I am talking about. I did read the article and although I agree with much of what he said I also feel like he is blinded by a hope that the organized church can change. It can’t. It is too ingrained with a message of salvation by performance. In saying that I still have great hope that even though the organized church won’t change, PEOPLE WILL. As you said, many in your generation are tired of a message that don’t work and are looking for something that does. The good news is that you don’t have to find a church to have that message. Look in your heart and encourage others to do the same. What you will find is PERFECT LOVE that has always been there. Begin looking at every single human being you meet as God’s perfect work. Look beyond all that delusion that they may be believing and see the light of God’s glory in all he created.
I think I would have to disagree with some of what you say Cliff. One of the good things about taking your Children where there are things that dont necessarily match your own beliefs, is that you get to teach them Grace and Forgiveness and that we all dont agree. Thus showing them that you can still have community without necessarily being on the same page. I disagree with many things my Pastor espouses, and I let my daughter know it. She also knows that He and his family are incredibly loving people who are trying their best to work their spiritual ways. Though they may believe in Hell, our family doesnt, so we cut them some slack and see where they are more consistent and congruent in ways that we are not. Not sure if that is the better way, but for us at this time its a pretty darn Good way.
John T, Are you saying that your kids will be OK in spite of the wrong teaching of the church? I agree with that as long as you are showing them the BETTER WAY, but wouldn’t be easier to just start with the BETTER WAY to begin with instead of having to undo what they are being taught? As long as you take them to church you will be constantly trying to explain to them why what they are hearing from the pulpit is wrong. Good luck with that.
My current situation is much like John T. We have open conversations with our daughter (5yo) about how God loves everybody the same. It may clash sometimes with the things she hears in bible class but it gives us a chance to talk about it. Our son’s only 2 so he’s pretty much there for the animal crackers and jungle gym.
The community aspects are very important to us. We’ve not been able to click well with the people who live in our neighborhood, yet the church gives us a chance to make some great relationships. Some of them don’t agree with the doctrines just like us, and others don’t agree with us OR the church doctrines. Yet we’re still together on Sunday.
I think it depends greatly on which church we’re talking about. We just got to this church two years ago, after leaving what had been our church home for eight years. That congregation would have destroyed itself over the journey I was on (I was a deacon there).
Yet now I’m at a place where the ministers know exactly what I believe and still encourage me to teach classes and devotionals. They have accepted me the same way I understand God to accept us.
Just wanted to say that these places do actually exist, and not all of them have “Universalist Unitarian” on the sign.
Redlefty, I really do hope the very best for you, John T, and others like you who are trying to fit in and I am glad you are being allowed to be yourself. I hope in a couple of years you can come back and tell us all that it really does work but my experience is that over time you will feel the rejection that is bound to come from the majority who can not accept the good news of God’s UNCONDITIONAL love. Definitly keep us informed about your journey and know that we at Boldgrace are walking right beside you.
Cliff
I get the sense that in this area you have an all or nothing mentality. Correct me if that is a wrong assumption. My Pastor doesnt “allow” me to be myself, they kind of dont have much choice in the matter lmao. I is what I is, my calling card. The truth of the matter is…….either GOD makes it ALL ok or he doesnt, that means my dysfunctional church will be made for GODS good. Im just as whacked as they are, just in my own unique way.Heres a funny joke for everyone.
“They offered a meeting for functional families, but they only had 2 callers. They were both in denial.
Redlefty
Give me a shout if you want to come up to Canada for a game of golf.
John
I love this post.(of course I love all of my Dad’s posts) but I can say honestly that I walked away from religion when I was 18 and I did this because my mother and father taught me to value my own way of thinking, to trust myself and be loving and kind… always.
Church people and other circumstances had me pretty screwed up for a while (probably still am, LOL), but I stayed strong in what I felt was right for me. I still supported my Dad, but I never really agreed with the Church/religion thing and when I became a mother I chose to never introduce my child to religion. Don’t get me wrong, I tell her about the bible and I tell her about my views on God and Jesus, but I will never be the one to introduce her to religion. I also tell her that the most important thing is to be loving and kind. I tell her that if it feels wrong then learn from it and don’t do it again. I tell her to always try to do what feels right. I tell her to be proud of who she is and where she comes from. I tell her to be respectful even when you may not be respected. I tell her that she is one of a kind and God meant for it to be that way so I tell her to cherish herself because that is where God lives.
I think it is important to never ever worry yourself about the choices you make in life. For me and my child it is important that I help guide her into her own understanding of what her truths are. It is her life. Noone can make her happy but herself. If she gives into others judgements of what she should be then she will never really know who she is and therefore I believe she will never truly be happy.
John, you say “One of the good things about taking your Children where there are things that dont necessarily match your own beliefs, is that you get to teach them Grace and Forgiveness and that we all dont agree. Thus showing them that you can still have community without necessarily being on the same page.”
The church taught me to judge others and to be afraid. Quite frankly I learned that Church/religion is a safe place to hide when we have nothing to hide from. Why would I want to put myself in a position on a regular basis to have to listen to something I don’t agree with? I do that everyday at work. I am certainly not going to do it every Sunday, Sunday night and Wednesday. I would rather surround myself with the things and the people who aren’t going to judge me and will accept me for who I am and through my own experience with all the many churches who turned me and my family away for being open minded I will have to say that Church does not teach you grace and forgiveness. We teach ourselves that. Church teaches how to be judgemental, scared and hypocritical. Unless you take yourself out of that kind of environment you are only going to keep doing the same things and that is with any environment you put yourself in that isn’t right for you.
Mindy
I see the apple has fallen far from the tree
Now you are assuming that the church I frequent is exactly the way yours was. I actually spent an hour yesterday in the office of my Pastor discussing Universalism, Hell, Loving creator and much more. Did we agree, not even close. Do I think hes a loving guy, yep and then some. I belong to a mens group and constantly debate with them the merits of their view of their faith, do we still agree on many aspects of how to be loving and lead productive, healthy and loving lives, yep and then some. The Church is the people who inhabit it, some I couldnt live one day with others I could live a lifetime with, its the same everywhere else in my world. What about yours???
John T,
It’s not about All or Nothing but rather about experience. Giving 35 years to religion and experiencing many churches brought me to where I am. I still have christian friends and we are able to do exactly what you and your pastor do without me needing to attend an organization that is divisive. You may be in a church that accepts everyone, but what really is the definition of acceptance? Do they accept the Muslem as their brother? Do they accept the Catholic church? Do they accept the Mormans? Do they accept ALL people? Because if they don’t then I can no longer support that stance.
There is an old testement scripture that says “God hates the one who sows discord among his brethren.” Why would anyone who accepts everyone want to be apart of an organization that accepts only the few chosen by their standards? And in my world I don’t make the decision who I can live with and who I can live without because I believe we will all live together for eternity. What about yours?
John,
That’s my tree!
Cliff
I see how you were affected by your early and long “Church” experience. I never attended church other than when I thought I might get lucky with my girlfriend at the time ;). Now funny thing is what you describe I have come into contact in the everyday secular life of most people. Its called inclusive exclusion lol, or better known as cliques. I havnt even come close to being accepting of all people and their beliefs. Im working towards it, and im better than I used to be. But alas I am a work in progress. Now if you have mastered accepting everybody, good for you. The thing is just by what you write it seems youre on the same path Im on, and Im not that sure youre much further down the road. Love the discussions though. Oh by the way eternity is not some time and place we go to, its happening right now. And presently I have a hard time with some of the people in my eternity. It seems you do too lol.
One more thing. I find it kind of bizarre that someone who purports to believe GOD is love would use an old testament scripture that says GOD Hates
Mindy
I know, hence the reference
John T
If you have read much of what I have written you would also know that I believe God loving and God hating is exactly the same thing. As far as being a work in progress you are right, we both are and will be until our journey is finished. As far as who is farther along, I’m not competing so it doesn’t matter to me.
Cliff
Could you do me a favour? If GOD Loving and GOD hating are exactly the same thing then what does it matter if I or you or redlefty go to a Church that espouses the idea of an eternal Hell………….technically with that belief system, there is no better way, they are actually the same!
We are all in this journey together the journey through God’s love and grace and no matter when our eyes are open in the end we will see the truth of His awesome love and grace.
That to me brings such joy and peace to the heart and mind.
Love Dan
I have learned not to expect everyone to see things the same way. We all have had different experiences and have different genetic make-ups, and we live in different places in this world. Raising a child as a part of a loving community of Christians (church) can be the best thing. If one happens to live in an area of the world where there are no churches which are actually loving communities, then it might be best not to involve them in church. If the only option availabe is the kind of churches some of you describe, then perhaps best not to be a part of a church. But, don’t make the mistake of thinking that all churches are like the ones you personally have been a part of over the years.
I think it is important to teach children the principles Jesus lived and taught. For me, it seems a logical place to begin that process in Sunday school. As a child in Sunday school, I learned basic principles which have been of value to me. I took my children to church because I wanted them to have the same benefit I had. If I’d had a different experience, I probably would have made a different decision.
John T,
It doesn’t matter as far as your relationship with God. It does matter in the here and now concerning the level of peace you will have.
Example: If one chooses a life with the KKK he is destined for a life of judgement, condemnation, pain, etc,, but that person is still loved by God the same as the person who chooses to see love as their guide and acceptance of all as their rule for living.
And by the way John, you still didn’t answer my question “Why would anyone who accepts everyone want to be apart of an organization that accepts only the few chosen by their standards?”
Good Morning Cliff
Ok heres goes. My answer is going to have a couple of points.
1. If we are here to learn and teach at the same time, then I guess its important that we associate with both groups of people. The ones who think they have the better way, and the ones who dont. Seems to me Christ didnt limit himself to only like minded people. In fact he saw the value in all and did his best to share with all. Actually, how are people supposed to learn a better way if there is no one to show them.
2. If I believe my way is the better way, what pretell makes me any different from the Fundamentalist who thinks he/she has the better or right way? I think Jesus had a word for that way of thinking. Hypocrite.
3. If we truly are all connected, dont think just because you dont physically associate with people who are judgemental and full of pain that you wont be affected by it. Reminds me of the person who sweeps it all under the rug. Eventually you will trip over it.
4. Salt and light hmmmm. Wonder if we can do that if everyone we associate with thinks like we do.
5. Love the discussions………..
Connie Said: “I think it is important to teach children the principles Jesus lived and taught.”
I couldn’t agree more Connie. I have watched my daughter Mindy & her husband do exactly that within their own home and the result is the most delightful little girl who has a wonderful perspective about this life.
The difference is that they don’t have the task of undoing all the negatives that a child will learn in Sunday School. I see their way as the BETTER WAY.
Also, I constantly see children on my school bus who attend Sunday School make judgements about other children. I see the “I’m better because I go to church attitude” in their sweet little spirits and it makes me sick to my stomach that they are growning up with an automatic “US & THEM” perspective.
And I also agree we can not and should not expect others to see things the way we do, but I sure wish someone had shared what we share at Boldgrace to me 35 years ago.
John T,
I couldn’t agree more with your answer. I can and do associate with all people. I could even associate with someone from the KKK but that doesn’t mean I support the organization. Associating and supporting is two different things.
At BoldGrace we are willing to assoicaite with all because we truly believe we are ALL God’s offspring.
Paul the apostle associated with Peter and the Super apostles but he soundly rejected the other Gospel that they were preaching.
You assume too much, but I welcome your comments.
Man I am so glad you brought this up! I grew up in evangelical christianity and i really did not like going to church. It was more like a chore. I have been thinking about this more now that I have my son. He is still a baby (he will be 7 months old on the 15th!) but I have worried about how I will teach him about God.
When I was pregnant I had considered taking him to saddleback church (yes the one run by Rick Warren). But I realized this would not work for me. I went to a few services last year and I wanted to stand up and shout YUCK! I only went because two of my friends were being baptized, but it just reminded me as to why I stopped going to church to begin with.
So how would a young single mom like me be able to teach my son about God? I have no idea!!!!!!
Michelle, Trust your heart and it won’t lead you wrong. Show them by your example of love, kindness, and acceptance of all. Let them know how God loves us all not just the church folk and remember at the end of each day that a heart established in bold grace IS SUFFICIENT.
Michelle,
I am no expert on this subject, but I am pretty proud of my 8 year old little girl and we have never and will never raise her in church, but we talk about God a great deal. I often tell her that religion is a man made thing. I tell her that people created religion out of fear, but that God is not something to fear because he lives inside of our hearts. I tell her that all we ever need to know about God is in the depths of our hearts and soul and she will have her own relationship with God as long as she follows her heart. I tell her to respect herself and others and to do her best each day not to judge others and even though she may make some decisions that might cause her pain God is with her every step of the way. Through the good and the bad he will be with her just like her Mommy and Daddy will. I want her to have the freedom to take what I give her and do as she pleases with it. If she decides to conform to religion some day then that is her decision. What ever she decides to do I will support her because I believe God will be with her every step of the way.
Yeah, i never thought i would become one of those parents who wants their kid to believe everything i believe. But i know that i need to just focus on the love and everything else will fall into place. Thanks guys!
Cliff
One of the drawbacks of communication on the web is that we have very little data to go by. I cant see if youre eyes are twinkling or if you are frowning, I cant hear the inflection in your voice. I am therefore limited to what I can discern from these blogs. This one inparticular. So I based my “assumptions” on your words, nothing more, nothing less. So sorry if I assumed too much.
John T….your point is well taken and so true. Face to face does give you so much more in the area of communication. And please understand that it really takes a great deal to offend me because I understand the complicated nature of our discussions and where each of us are coming from. I really appreciate all that you have to bring to boldgrace.
Michelle, I totally understand what you mean by church feeling like a chore. That is one of the main reasons I plan to take a break from organized church soon. This doesn’t necessarily mean I’ll absolutely never set foot in a church setting again or not associate with people who do go to church. I just need time to break free from organized religion and really get a desire to love God. I feel bad in admitting this but sometimes I genuinely don’t feel that desire. It’s more like a duty. Even though it’s been two years since I’ve broken away from my Southern Baptist upbringing changing views about God is still quite difficult.