A Response To My Perfect, Righteous, Holy, Redeemed & Saved Friend John T.
I have been lurking the past few weeks and have not responded or posted any thoughts here on Bold Grace. But after reading the conversation and comments on Cliff’s post titled “ Blessed Are The Pure In Heart” I decided to make this a post of it’s own and not a comment on that post. So here goes………………
John T. writes:
Kevin
What happens to your mind and spirit when you’ve drifted from God and how do you get it back? Do you repent? Which I believe means to change your mind 
GEO Responds:
John T. there in reality is nothing to “get back” as you term it. But if you want to repent or “change your mind” then go ahead. The problem comes in when we try and make others do the same in order to “feel clean” before God.
John T. writes:
I notice one thing about BOLD GRACE the site. I think you guys are terrific and you try your best to share the love of God amongst us. But very definitely there is still huge resentment towards the Church as you see it.
GEO Responds:
John T. statements such as this…
“But very definitely there is still huge resentment towards the Church as you see it”.
Are your opinion and we respect it as such. The same way what we say here are our opinions and they are not to bind anyone to believe as we do. Nor are they meant to silence any thought or speech. As far as judgment of the church goes why should we not judge the church? The judgment talked about in the New Testament writings was, we are not to Judge another persons Redemption, Salvation or Acceptance before God. But we are encouraged in the New Testament writings to Judge when a wrong is done to another. And the Church has PLENTY to be judged for in that area. But while we at Bold Grace may Judge the actions & deeds of Institutions and People NEVER ONCE have we nor will we judge anyone’s Righteousness, Holiness, Redemption, Salvation or Acceptance by God! We believe those in the Church who are doing GREAT damage to others are Righteous, Holy and Redeemed! Do they believe the same of us? My experience has been NO! In fact most people still in that system, at least the majority of the ones that I have encountered since leaving it (organized religion) have said just the opposite and view us here at Bold Grace as unbelieving heretics who will burn in hell, while we believe they are Righteous, Holy, Acceptable and without spot before God! Do you really think they believe the same of us?
John T. writes:
After all that does seem to me to be quite self-centered, don’t ya think?
GEO Responds:
John T.,
Do you believe that we are in Christ and He is in us, which I do? If so then self-centeredness would be Christ centeredness would it not?
GEO Responds:
John T.,
When your wife said this:
“If the people on this site were truly immersed in their understanding of the love of God, they wouldn’t waste their time judging the Church and how it creates Fear in everyone”.
She as you previously did was stating her opinion. And again the church is indeed in need of judging! (My opinion!) Again please never think that we here at Bold Grace are judging anyone’s Righteousness, Holiness, Redemption, Salvation or Acceptance by God. Again I say that in the NT writings it says we are to judge when another has been wronged. As a matter of fact Paul says we should be able to do just that! And the world is full of people who have been wronged by that system. And we here at Bold Grace will always speak against what we see as wrong in religious systems while NEVER once judging another’s Righteousness, Holiness, Redemption, Salvation or Acceptance by God.
GEO Responds:
John T.,
You wife was curious about this:
Why are you are centered so much on Fear itself as a topic?
I cannot speak for others that are a part of Bold Grace but for me as I see it the topic of fear is the one most used by those so-called leaders in organized religion today. It is used to extort and extract money, time & labor from those under the so-called care of pastors, and leaders. That is why I speak of it and against it. Speaking against it sets the captives free.
John T. writes:
Anyways I like reading what you guys have to say and just enjoy bantering, it helps me grow in my faith.
GEO Responds:
If the bantering helps you grow in your faith John T. then our writings here at Bold Grace are a complete and utter failure for you! Because our whole focus here at Bold Grace is NOT to help you or anyone else grow in your faith! But to assist you and all who come to Bold Grace in coming to the complete and utter end of your personal faith & belief in God and Jesus Christ! Then and only then can you embrace the Faith of God that is IN Jesus the Christ. And when a person leaves behind the doctrines of Christ as Paul said and then embraces the Faith Of God that is in Jesus the world for that person takes on a new order and EVERYTHING changes!
But then again I very well could be full of crap! Hahaha!
John T., if I were a praying person (which I am not, because ALL of my prayers were fulfilled at The Cross) I would pray that you and others who visit here and indeed in the whole world for that matter would lose ALL of your and it’s personal Faith and Belief in God and Jesus! And that you would discover The Faith of God that is in Christ! A Faith that makes ALL People Righteous, Holy, Redeemed & Accepted by God regardless of their acceptance of Him or belief in Him!
Thanks Again John T. for adding a different viewpoint and helping us examine what we believe about God. But the most important belief is what God believes about us not what we believe about Him. And what He believes about us is that we are ALL Righteous, Holy and without spot or blemish regardless of our words actions or deeds. Because He sees Jesus His Son when He looks at His Creation! Now that is THE GOOD NEWS! News so Good even Christians for the most part do not believe it.
Peace
From your
Perfect, Righteous, Holy, Redeemed & Saved Friend
Geo
The trouble is I think I need MORE faith now to be able to trust God with all this. I am so confused about everything - traditional theology verses Bold Grace theology. It is really hard to let go and trust that Jesus really did finish it all at the cross and that it doesn’t matter what people believe as to their eternal destiny. It is really hard to try and relax and trust that I don’t need to do anything, let alone trusting that my loved ones that appear to have rejected Christ or others of different religions don’t need to do anything. What if we are wrong? I need so much faith to trust God with that question: what if I am wrong? So far I am not game to tell anyone what I HOPE is true deep down, in case I am wrong.
Hey Geo
Can I get my own post too ……………..you guys can edit it if necessary.
John T.
Send the post to me at geo at boldgrace dot com along with your personal email addy and I will talk to over with the Bold Grace team if they are okay with it then yes. by the way if we do post it and it will be in its complete form without any edits on our part. okay? by the way John T. I in all sincerity meant what I said about you being Perfect, Righteous, Holy, Redeemed & Saved! It was not said in a derogatory manner. Thanks again for your participation here at bold grace.
Peace
Geo
Julia wrote:
It is really hard to let go and trust that Jesus really did finish it all at the cross.
Geo here: Isn’t that what He Himself said on The Cross Julia?
Julia, could you tell me what your answer to your question is when you asked this, “What if we are wrong”? And as far as you telling anyone else what your hope is deep down don’t worry about it! When the time is full it will burst out of you like a NEW DAWN and at that time you will no longer care what others say or think about you as to Bold Grace any longer. Thanks for sharing your heart.
Geo
I think my answer to “what if we are wrong” is that I would be in part causing others to perish/be separated from God forever/end up in hell by not telling them of the need to come to God in humility and repentance… to confess to Him “sorry for living my own way, thank you Jesus for dying on the cross for me, please come and be Lord of my life” (in some form) from the heart. (Or at least helping/encouraging others that are braver than me to tell others!) Another thing is that I don’t wish to offend God in that I believe He is a jealous God, and that no other should be worshipped but Jesus/God the Father/Holy Spirit. If I come to the point of believing that it doesn’t matter what we believe, then I am saying it is OK to worship other gods (idols). From what I read in the bible, God seems to hate that. Hope you understand where I’m coming from. (PS Having said that, I really appreciated your post, “One road, many modes”. But my point here is about people who know about Jesus, but choose to worship idols/other gods instead. Wouldn’t God hate that?)
I understand your concern completely, Julia. I experienced much the same feelings when I found myself drawn into this amazing revelation. The conclusion I came to was that, if my relationship to God was based on MY faith, it would never amount to much of anything. It would always be a sham, and I would always be second-guessing myself as to “how well I was doing”. I knew that I could never muster enough “faith” to feel secure in my connection to God, and I would always suffer with fear and worry.
I finally had to come to a point where I knew my only option was to abandon my faith altogether. It was worthless. I know, the CHURCH says, “you must have faith”. And that resonates inside of you like a ping-pong ball bouncing around an empty room. You see, the church doesn’t want you content and satisfied. If you were, they couldn’t control and manipulate you. They want you antsy and stirring so that they can be the “cure” for what ails you. They want to be your savior. They want you under their power. And that’s OK, they need to do whatever they have to do to find peace. Too bad they have to USE you to get it.
Anyway, shedding the “baggage” of institutional religion was a necessary part of my conversion. I had a lot of conflicting feelings and thoughts to work through. It nearly drove me crazy. But, I realized I couldn’t have both. I couldn’t have peace and religion at the same time. It was one or the other. The two are not compatible.
As I detoxified from the grip of the church, I began to see the bible and God in a new light. I found that God was far more loving and encompassing than I ever could have imagined. I learned that He is with me always, through thick and thin. And I received the revelation that changed my life… that HE LOVED ME NO MATTER WHAT!
My faith died. And it was replaced with HIS faith! Connectedness to God didn’t depend on my faith in Him… it was completely due to His faith in ME! And His faith in me isn’t affected by my actions. It isn’t earned, and it doesn’t have to be received. It is simple there. Always.
When I fully understood how powerful His faith in me is… I was inexplicably drawn into Him. Instant “connectedness”! Instant “assuredness”! Instant “contentment” and “peace”!
Sadly, the church won’t tell you these things. It would destroy them (at least in their present state). They are all about self-preservation and self-sustainability. They can’t allow the truth of God to get out. It is unacceptable, and unprofitable.
As for folks like John T… when we try to take this message into the church, one of two things will happen. Either they will suck you back in through re-indoctrination, or they will push you out. It’s a shame, but the two ideas are not compatible, and cannot exist together in the same body.
Thank you Geo for an enlightning post. LET FREEDOM REIGN.
Thanks Bruce. I used to love your website YBMT. That is where my eyes were first opened to the possibility that we can just BE and REST because it’s His faith that matters, not ours. I was struggling with fear and anxiety when I discovered YBMT and I thank God so much that I found that site, for the amazing peace and hope that I discovered there.
I think I understand where John T is coming from about the various comments on Bold Grace about the church though. When the different posts here say “the church says” or “organised religion says” I get my bristles up a bit too! This is because the church is made up of people that I love. It’s kind of like wanting to defend my family! In my experience I don’t think the people that make up the church are deliberately trying to make money or use people or self-preserve or self-sustain. I think that most people/pastors/leaders in the churches that I have been a part of have truly loved God and wanted to serve Him and serve others in response to the understanding of the gospel of Christ that they have.
However, I agree it is very hard to hold on to the hope that “it’s HIS faith, you don’t need to do anything, just rest in His grace” while continually hearing “It’s good news, amazing grace, He won the victory” followed by “all you need to do is come to Him in repentance and faith…”
I understand what Julia means. My heart deep down says that our performance truly has nothing to God’s attitude towards us yet I still struggle with accepting it sometimes.
Bruce, how did you shed all the baggage that kept from you from truly embracing who God is? Sometimes the Bible seems to confuse me as well. In Paul’s letters I read about how we’re no longer under the law yet sometimes I read warnings about certain types of people not inheriting the kingdom of God. Is it just having trouble separating grace from law? The fact is that list that Paul gives includes everyone.
I really want to just get to that place where I can rest and be. What I mean by that is truly understanding that I have nothing to do with my salvation.
hey Geo! So what do you think about prayer? Since I have truly realized that God is always listening and that we are all taken care of, I have an awkward time praying. I used to pray to ask for God’s guidance through a tough situation or for stupid piddly things (like most christians do).
Just for laughs I thought I would share this: Not too long ago my dad was telling me that he remembered people from our old church who would pray the bad calories away whenever they ate something like cake and ice cream. To think, that God would want to answer that prayer over a prayer to end hunger, poverty, and violence!
So now I still talk to God, but I limit it to just telling him thanks for all he has given me and for a little guidance through the rough patches. Sometimes I wonder if it is a waste of time to pray. I know God doesnt care whether I pray or not. I think I pray mostly out of habit, only it is not so selfish anymore.
Michelle- One of the quotes that leads into my website is: “The only prayer to pray is a prayer of thanks.” Thanks to God that He’s already taken care of the situation in a perfect way. Then, it is up to us to see the situation as perfect.
Thanks, Don. I find myself over and over falling back into the old christian way I was taught as a child, to ask and ye shall receive. But I have always known that things happen according to my effort in life, but when it comes to God and heaven it is not for me to deal with since it is already taken care of. I used to whine and hey sometimes I still do, but I am so thankful for the many things God gave me that it helps me to move on more and more and grow up.
Michelle,
If prayer helps you find peace and calmness then by all means pray and do it with gusto. For me yes I still as you sometimes fall back into old habits the only thing is now when I fall back I can recover quickly. One thing I have learned is that the flesh desires above all things to be justified by what it does what it says or the way it acts or reacts to life. And it is always looking for some small opening to squeeze through. I agree with Don when he said the only prayer really that remains is THANK YOU! Hang in there my friend this life we are living in the human body is one of great twist,turns, dangers and victories. But always remember the road of the spirit hereafter is straight and we have no need of worry as to its dangers. It is The Victory Forever Road made by The Savior of The Whole World.
Peace
Geo
Don R………I love your prayer and it has been my for quite awhile now. Geo says it so well when he talks about the straight way of the spirit. The spirit is always willing but the flesh is weak, but as Paul says I will now rejoice in my weakness for when I am weak HE is strong.
Julia, I understand how you and John T feel offended when we talk about the organized church because I was exactly where you were for many years. I believe it was Bruce who wrote our “Welcome” message and it says:
“BoldGrace is a community of bloggers who have come together to share the message of a bold, vast, full grace that was revealed to all the world through the Cross of Christ.
Join us as we untangle the twists and turns of religion, and journey into the simple truth of an awesome, sweet, amazing… Grace!”
As the last phrase says we here at Boldgrace are doing our best to untangle the TWISTS AND TURNS OF RELIGION and to do that we are trying to point out the bondages that we know still exist within the organized church. I don’t think you have ever heard us talk about the people who are still in that bondage in any type of derogatory manner because we know that each and everyone of them are perfectly loved by our Father. If mentioning the traps of religion offend you or anyone else still involved maybe you should ask yourself why? When I finally did that I realized I could never help people see their perfection until I could help them see the illusions and lies of their religion. When Jesus talked about setting the captives free He was talking about freedom from the heavy burden trying to be RIGHT with God and that is something the organized church still doesn’t get. I appreciated the journey that you are on and my only goal or desire for you or anyone else is simply to see and enjoy the freedom for which Christ died for.
Cliff
Technically are you not participating in a Religion also. It seems to me you profess your faith, you gather with others to share your faith and from your description of what other organized religions do, you show where you think they have it wrong. Tell me, other than your self proclaimed Love for everyone, whats the difference? Just curious. Oh and by the way you dont offend me ;). Truth is it takes a lot to really get me going lol, and usually its my lousy Golf Swing.
Also……………could someone explain something…..My understanding is that the Church(Ekklesia) is all the people on this earth. Does that not mean both organized and non organized people? In other words where all in this together. Different strokes for different folks.
John T,
I understand the meaning of the word church. When I speak of organized religion I also understand there are good things within it (the wheat & the chaff), but the very difference between our fellowship here at boldgrace and the fellowship found in the organized church is the word “FREEDOM”. We truly do accept ALL into our fellowship, can your church say the same thing? No one is bound here to any particular belief, rules, regulations, or standard by which they will be held accountable to God. You have admitted that you still hear messages about people going to HELL from your pastor’s pulpit, so tell me, what’s the difference between you disagreeing with that message and me disagreeing? The difference I see is that you still feel the need to support and defend the organized church and I don’t. LOL
Looking for a quote for a website I’m building and stumbled across this:
All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.
Thomas Paine (1737-1809)
And another:
He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors.
Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
Cliff
Ok cliff………Im not sure about you, but I definately dont have all my Sheit together. I am a work in progress. Also I am learning, and sometimes with great difficulty to cut others some slack or grace as we put it. I am not defending the nasty stuff my friends at the Church espouse and practice. I am defending the part of them that I feel is Loving. They sure as Sheit dont have it all together either. Believe this or not but my Pastor allows me to ask and speak freely about my beliefs or disbeliefs of his “faith”. Not that he could stop me anyways, because Id probably tell him where to go :). The point Im trying to convey is that we all have our issues and some go deeper than others. I have No(not one) experience of someone trying to guilt me or put fear into me about God at my Church. Mainly because if they start to speak like that I intuitively shut my ears or tell them to stop. I didnt grow up in the Church. Also I know all about Fear and Domination from my Life experience and the Church aint got nothing that I cant handle.
Now with that said, there is much I love about my church and much I love about conversing with you guys and other bloggers. Little bits of God in all of us
Heres a funny joke for you
“They had a meeting for functional families, and they only had 2 callers, and they were both in Denial”
You’re a lucky one, John. Maybe the only one I know who can exist in that environment without succumbing to it. Good luck with that!
Hey, would your church allow you to address the body one sunday morning with your theology? It sounds like to speak to your “pastor” about it, but would they find it acceptable to preach it to all? Just wondering.
Bruce
Im actually working on my Pastor to let us have an express your doubt day, and let us pose 3 questions from the congregation.
And as far as succumbing. Let me say one thing, if you ever had someone literally step on your throat. Verbal threats dont mean much lol.
F-fear
E-evidence
A-appearing
R-real
It’s not the “verbal” that’s the problem. It’s the psychological and the interpersonal manipulations that lead to indoctrination.
What do you think they’d do if you stood up one day for an hour and told them how you really feel? I’ll tell you, I cannot contain the zeal I have for the message of Grace and Peace… the real message as I understand it. Sadly, it is not accepted in most religious circles. And that’s OK, they can believe whatever they want to believe. I have no problem with that. But, I can’t sit silently by and not express my gratefulness for the understanding that I have been given. Know what I mean? If I must remain silent, I cannot thrive within that group. This good news is TOO GOOD to squelch!
Bruce
“Mind over matter, if I dont mind it dont Matter”
Hey…….Im curious, is there a picture of Cliff on here?
http://www.boldgrace.com/pics/gracegathering2007/pages/DSC_1298.htm
Thanks
Also……………could someone explain something…..My understanding is that the Church(Ekklesia) is all the people on this earth. Does that not mean both organized and non organized people?
Personally, I try to differentiate between small-c “church”–which is the organized, conventional church; and the big-C “Church”–which consists of all the Christians on the earth. Ecclesia means “called ones” in the Greek, but is mistranslated as “C/church”. The “called ones” are everyone, but especially Christians, IMO.