Thoughts From John T.
This post is a FIRST here at Bold Grace. We have never had someone who is not part of the Bold Grace Administration Team post before. But our friend and frequent commenter John T. has asked that we allow him to post some of his thoughts. After discussing it through emails with the team we have agreed to have John T. post the following. As always please remember we at Bold Grace may or may not agree with his writings but we do hope they will cause us all to explore life. With that disclaimer we give you JOHN T…………………………….
Thanks for considering my request. I will try to make this relatively short. I have many ideas to share but I will limit them to my "belief" in our creator and how that relates to my "view" of our existence. I will take a Christian Scriptural viewpoint, but by no means do I think the Bible is the only authority on how we connect and remain aware of the Spirit of God. So here goes 
Firstly, I find it fascinating that we as Christians actually feel the need for a SAVIOUR. In fact, doesnt that automatically make us feel like there is something inherently wrong with us? I mean, like really, God created us in his image yet were so messed up that we need to be bailed out. I think when we come from this original viewpoint, there is only one way to go…….DOWN. So with that said I think the early writers of Scripture were trying there best to explain the existence of, as we see it, Good and Evil. How accurate are they? Well we’ll leave that one alone. Maybe another post lol. Personally, I feel that God is Love and that I’m actually OK in the grand scheme of things. Do I have doubts…you bet. Do I sometimes have fears…. you bet. But overall I intuitively know that I’m OK in the universe."I will put my laws on their mind and write them on their hearts. I will be their god and they will be my people" Hebrews 8:10
So where do I go from here? I have been reading about Christianity and scripture and there is much that I find not only enlightening but also soothing to my spirit. Many of its words feed my soul and calm me. Does it sometimes confuse the Heck out of me……..lol ain’t that the truth. But overall I see how people through the ages have and still try to connect to their essence. That in itself is wonderful. Many of the tenets of the Bible help to form great communities. Also many of them can be a divider. I guess it depends on your perspective. Now I know in previous posts I have made mention of repenting and other aspects that the Church espouses. Does the Church really get what they mean, I’m not so sure that they do. My take on many of the practices of the Bible is that they are actually for training our mind and our spirit to maintaining its connection to the Divine Energy. Repenting and Prayer are just some of those practices. Their purpose is not for creating Guilt and Fear but reverence to the Love energy that God is.(Oh and by the way, I do believe we are an intrinsic part of that energy). The challenge with this world is that of "duality" and some may not see it in quite as positive of a way, hence the idea of Evil.
From my viewpoint, I believe that in this period of my eternal happening, I am here to learn things. Why is that? Well your guess is as good as mine. I just sense that is the truth. Now with that said, it seems the Creator or God has set up a system that seems to have some truths or absolutes to it. Jump off a bridge and gravity takes over. Drink too much alcohol and get a hangover. Regardless of how good it feels before, there are consequences to our actions. Now maybe Sin is not so much the action but more the outcome of that action. I believe in the process of teaching ourselves and our fellow travelers on this ride called Life, we need to understand better the outcomes of what we do. I believe God said go ahead do whatever you want, but remember the system will give you an outcome, some desirable, some not. The outcomes have nothing to do with the overall Love, but they definitely have something to do with how you experience your Life. Will that experience be Loving or something not so Loving.
As far as my brain understands this existence, it seems very temporary. Yet there is this sense that there is a continuation beyond what I see, touch, taste and experience presently. So with that said I believe that what and how I work this part of my existence will definitely have an effect on the rest of it. What I mean by that is, its important to at least attempt to work the system for outcomes of Love. If I don’t try, it wont sway Gods Love for me overall, but it will get me some outcomes that don’t necessarily make me feel Good or Loving.
I believe the purpose or intent of Jesus was one of showing us how to have community better. Remembering that we are all OK, but also remembering to strive to be more Loving.
So when Cliff made reference to doing things wrong or hurtful and being OK because he’s knows he’s Loved, in my mind, kind of misses the point. I believe the point is about community and understanding that what we do will affect others and Jesus was trying to show us how to limit or change(repent) our beliefs so we don’t continue those behaviors. He cuts us some slack(Grace), yet he still wants us to strive to do actions that have better outcomes.
Love and Best wishes
John Tattersall
PS…To enter the kingdom of the father you must become as a child…………………I got giddy being able to share my viewpoints with you guys…….Thanks again
I like what you’re saying here, John. It explains a lot about some of the comments you’ve made. It’s nice to get to know you better.
I was thinking about your thought about Jesus showing us how to have community, and hope to hear more about that. On first thought, I’d tend to disagree with that statement. But then again, maybe you’re right, and maybe the message is that “community” should be limited to a group of 13. Then, money wouldn’t become such an issue, and there would be no need for a building (more money), or need for a paid spiritual leader (more money). Also, there would be no need for organizational management and decision-making committees. And, no purpose for structure and planning. Hey, come to think of it, that sounds like the group of friends here at boldgrace! Hmmm…
I’m not sure that Jesus’ intent was to show that we need to strive to be more loving either. I see it as something more like “you have allowed a religious mindset taint your feelings toward other people, and you have become less loving and intolerant because of it. Change your mind about religious living and instead enjoy the newfound closeness to God that had been hidden away by religion, and you will awaken to a whole new life… one of love and peace!”
Thanks for the words Bruce
I reread what I wrote and maybe a better description for Jesus is………..He reminds us of our essence which is one of Love. I think when we are in this incarnation for any length of time we forget that. Who knows maybe all he was for us is a reminder :)………..By the way I greatly appreciate all at Bold Grace for this Honour……………..If you ever come up to Ottawa Canada …..you all get a free massage at our Wellness Clinic.
Thank for sharing your thoughts and ideas John T. MORE for me to think about!!
John T,
I also agree that our perfection has always been from the beginning. I believe Jesus came simply to help us get back to a mindset that is able to see the beauty of not only who we are but the entire creation.
The problem I have with “community” is that in most cases comunities in church circles become exclusionary. The community that Jesus wanted us to understand includes ALL.
Hey Cliff
Just curious, what happens if all the people who fully get the understanding of Gods infinite grace decide that none of them are going to go share it with the Church people? How are they ever going to find out about it? Didnt Jesus say “Go make disciples”
?
wow great post! but you said it was going to be short. haha.
my favorite part, which i agree with you on, is:
“I believe God said go ahead do whatever you want, but remember the system will give you an outcome, some desirable, some not. The outcomes have nothing to do with the overall Love, but they definitely have something to do with how you experience your Life.”
John T. Wrote:
Just curious, what happens if all the people who fully get the understanding of Gods infinite grace decide that none of them are going to go share it with the Church people?
Geo here:
John T. what makes you think that we don’t share it with what you call “Church people”? I share what I believe with anyone that will sit still for 30 seconds! Unlike when I was one of the “Church People” and I did not share with anyone. But one thing I will not do now is cast pearls before the swine. I will not try and force what I believe onto or into anyone.
Or is it that you think because unlike you we do not “go to church” then we can’t be sharing with “church people”? I hope that is not your assumption?
Peace
Geo
Again John T, you have a lot of assumptions about us that are not based on reality, but then again so do a lot of church folk.
Good morning Guys
The reason I asked that question was because in the past I have been asked how I can sit in Church and listen to their message. The thing is when Im there many of them have to listen to mine too
Now if you guys would just invite me for a beer and a game of golf I can get rid of all my assumptions. lol.
Thanks Michelle
John, are you saying that it’s only within the walls of the church building that you can talk to church people? It’s been my experience that the “church service” is the least likely place to have an open conversation with anyone. While in church, everyone puts on their perfect “church” personality… the concerned looks, the fake smiles, and the simulated caring attitudes… all while their brains seem fully disengaged - not an environment conducive to real dialog.
I love church people. I even love church leaders. Several good friends of mine are church leaders (some are no longer proponents of organized religion, some are). And it has become clear to me that they are truly different people when removed from the church building. See them in the church and you are seeing the “church character” they need to portray. But see them in private, and you might just see the “real” person.
To me, what went on within the church was all superficial fluff… an orchestrated event intended to fulfill some contrived obligation. It was simply a “going through the motions” of religious requirement. It was “actors” playing out a script… performing a role handed to them by the director. Very artificial, in my opinion.
Granted, your experience sounds quite different. And I applaud you for seeing that need, and doing what you can to affect the lives of those folks. But for me, I’ll wait patiently for them to exit the building, remove their masks, and become themselves again.
My question remains… I wonder how long it will take for them to find you out, and reject your agenda, and then reject you. You see, to religious people, it’s not Jesus who saves you, it’s the correctness of your theology that saves you. And, once they have a “correct theology” they will do anything to protect it, and protect themselves from those who challenge it.
Best of luck to you, Bro! I mean that sincerely. I hope you “make disciples”.
John T. Wrote:
Now if you guys would just invite me for a beer and a game of golf I can get rid of all my assumptions. lol.
Geo Here:
OKAY Here is your invite John T.!
On Saturday May 24th I am having a Community Lamb, Chicken & Beef Roast at my house. Bruce will be there and so will Cliff And his wife and daughter also Steve the other member of the Bold Grace Team will be there along with 70 - 100 others from the Community. You can meet us all there if you put your money where your mouth is! hahaha! (For the travel cost I mean) So can we expect you to be there? By the way you can stay at my house I have an extra bedroom . Well what say you?
P.S. This is not a joke!
Peace
Geo
Hi Geo
Thanks for the invite. Just curious where you live. And do you have room for a wife and 2 kids ;)?
John
Bruce,
Wow, you are so right. People are never themselves in a church setting so do any of them even really know each other?
Loved your comment!
Mindy
Can’t wait to see you!!
Thanks John T.!
John T. Wrote:
Thanks for the invite. Just curious where you live. And do you have room for a wife and 2 kids ;)?
Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA
Yes I DO! Have the room. So are you coming?
Peace
Geo
We’re gonna have CHURCH!!!
I’m sure Geo didn’t mean to exclude anyone else who would like to come. There’s a good chance we can find a place for out-of-towners to stay. But, if we run out of room, we can pitch a tent somewhere! I’ll even clean up the fertilizer logs from my back yard if I need to!
The room at my house is first ask first get!
And no need to clean up the logs Bruce. If we have to I have plenty of room on my property to set up as many tents as need be. So if you want to stay the weekend please bring a tent as the room will be taken by John T. and his family. Right John T.?
Peace
Geo
Hi Geo
Give me a shout at my email Tatsden@rogers.com……..Seems my wife is intriqued about going to. We would be coming without the kids though. SO look forward to your email with your name and all the details.
John
Hey John, I read your post, and can see where you are going, the path I have been on for these past couple years is of similar grade.
With that being said, I have to say I find discussing issues like these via interweb too often ends unfruitfull, with both “sides” reinforced in their own perceptions and/or brand of thinking. Hence I don’t bother often to reply, usually just sit back and watch the show, but something(s) you said just scream reply to me so here goes
John wrote:
…”Firstly, I find it fascinating that we as Christians actually feel the need for a SAVIOUR. In fact, doesnt that automatically make us feel like there is something inherently wrong with us? I mean, like really, God created us in his image yet were so messed up that we need to be bailed out. I think when we come from this original viewpoint, there is only one way to go…….DOWN.”….
…”I believe the purpose or intent of Jesus was one of showing us how to have community better. Remembering that we are all OK, but also remembering to strive to be more Loving.”…..
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OK, you just hit the nail on the head with this, the idea of Jesus dying for “the sins of the people” is core to traditional christianity, core to the creators of this website, it is one of those “do not question” doctrines.
One of the greatest leaps into freedom from religion was letting go the scriptures as God written, as unfallable in some way, as having some claim to fame athority. Seeing it for what it is - an epic tribal story of human expirence and/or perception was a transition indeed.
There is a God of love revealed, but until the bibles texts of hate are exposed, we are left thinking “well this is just how God choose to operate” because we limit ourselves to the confines of anothers(bible writers) viewpoints and opinions.
We are not/were not sinners in need of rescue, as you mentioned John, the whole idea of Jesus dying for sins is bankrupt. I did, however, embrace this thinking for many years(in and out of the church) and I know the gratitude felt of thinking this was so, how could one not feel relief thinking God was angry but His Son took the penalty for the punishment? What I had yet to realize though, was that feelings of emence gratitude do not always equal truth, there is no denying its comforting effect, it has the pacifier effect, comfort in a reality that just isn’t so.(I have yet to see a pacifer produce milk)
The truth is we are not in need of rescue, security can never finally be built on violence, we do not(did not) need to be punished either in this life or in the life to come, nor do we need to have some mythical god figure take our place, we miss the humanity of Jesus when we place those doctrines around his neck.
What is needed is to be empowered to step into new possibilties, to step into a more complete humanity, to transend our limits, and the limits of our forefathers. Embracing a humanity that is so whole and so complete that it is expirenced as God-infused.
To understand Jesus as the “scapegoat” is to miss much of what he spoke of to the people of his day, of which much can be translated to the world we live in today. Community. Accepting others just as they are, loving others wastefully - this is the spirit of Jesus I have come to know and expirence.
I am going to say it - divinity is a human concept that can only be found in humanity, when this caught hold of me the earth started to shake I am sure!
Jesus cannot be a divine visitor from the heavenly realm, he can only be a product of humanity, created out of its gene pool. This understanding shook the core of my being to say the least. Jesus is one who expressed the character of God in that he loved wastefully, one so radically human and free, so whole and complete, that the power of life (God) becomes visible and operative in him and through him.
I’ll finish this post up with a quote from J.S.Spong:
The doctrines of the incarnation, the atonement and the Trinity were necessitated in traditional Christianity by the premise of the fall. God alone could overcome the fall, and since Jesus was precieved as rescuer, then Jesus had to be the divine visitor accomplishing this divine task. When the fall is dismissed, traditional Christology cannot help but go with it, and a new Christology must emerge, as a phoenix rising from the ashes of the past, it will be a Christology not based on fall and rescue, sin and salvation or even guilt and forgivness, but on the call to wholeness, the power of love and the enhancement of being….this is the doorwaythrough which Christianity must walk through if it is to live in tomorrows world”
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Although I may have taken a few noticable steps beyond the accepted norm, I appreciate the freedom to share them here. Grace to you all,
Marco
Marco
I like those words…………nice to see my brain aint so different after all lol.
Any way we can chat some more about your journey. How would I be able to get in contact with you.
John
hey John, thanks for the reply, I wouldn’t mind hearing more from you as well, nice to see you are a fellow Canadian, I am from Nova Scotia, my email is roundthetwist@live.com, drop me a message when you have a chance, mabye tell me a little about your journey
Marco
Johnny this is where you posted from - cool. Very good article - it is becoming of you - to be a writer. I liked it.
“I believe the purpose or intent of Jesus was one of showing us how to have community better. Remembering that we are all OK, but also remembering to strive to be more Loving.” (John T)
I like that idea. I am big on community and sharing with others in a way that we all feel empowered - and community means a lot to me. But one thing we can never have enough of is - love.
I am part of a community that almost totally non-Christian (in the sense they do not attend a church nor have) - and in my community I have found acceptance because I was accepting (and loving). We all bring different struggles and ideas to the table - but the key is ‘we all’ - it’s a togetherness thing (that has me invited to 3 weddings this summer).
My community is strruggling with some of the most basic issues and some with more deeper issues - but we all kind of share that - somehow (maybe in intent?). It’s very culturally connected (majority is Aboriginal) but that’s not an exclusionary thing or nothing - but a similarity thing (comfort level or what have you).
I just bought a house - and although it is the wife and I taking the dent in our pockets - I feel it takes a community to raise a home (guess who is getting invited - yes - many of those whom I see in my community).
Jason B.
Thanks for the words. Not very many people call me Johnny. For whatever reason I have limited who called me that. Funny though, it felt right reading it from you. Must be the community thing
Im going to meet the great guys at BOLDGRACE……….who knows, if you invite me, maybe you’ll be next.
John