Thanks for the words. Not very many people call me Johnny. For whatever reason I have limited who called me that. Funny though, it felt right reading it from you. Must be the community thing

Im going to meet the great guys at BOLDGRACE……….who knows, if you invite me, maybe you’ll be next.

John

“I believe the purpose or intent of Jesus was one of showing us how to have community better. Remembering that we are all OK, but also remembering to strive to be more Loving.” (John T)

I like that idea. I am big on community and sharing with others in a way that we all feel empowered - and community means a lot to me. But one thing we can never have enough of is - love.

I am part of a community that almost totally non-Christian (in the sense they do not attend a church nor have) - and in my community I have found acceptance because I was accepting (and loving). We all bring different struggles and ideas to the table - but the key is ‘we all’ - it’s a togetherness thing (that has me invited to 3 weddings this summer).

My community is strruggling with some of the most basic issues and some with more deeper issues - but we all kind of share that - somehow (maybe in intent?). It’s very culturally connected (majority is Aboriginal) but that’s not an exclusionary thing or nothing - but a similarity thing (comfort level or what have you).

I just bought a house - and although it is the wife and I taking the dent in our pockets - I feel it takes a community to raise a home (guess who is getting invited - yes - many of those whom I see in my community).

Marco

I like those words…………nice to see my brain aint so different after all lol.

Any way we can chat some more about your journey. How would I be able to get in contact with you.

John

With that being said, I have to say I find discussing issues like these via interweb too often ends unfruitfull, with both “sides” reinforced in their own perceptions and/or brand of thinking. Hence I don’t bother often to reply, usually just sit back and watch the show, but something(s) you said just scream reply to me so here goes

John wrote:

…”Firstly, I find it fascinating that we as Christians actually feel the need for a SAVIOUR. In fact, doesnt that automatically make us feel like there is something inherently wrong with us? I mean, like really, God created us in his image yet were so messed up that we need to be bailed out. I think when we come from this original viewpoint, there is only one way to go…….DOWN.”….

…”I believe the purpose or intent of Jesus was one of showing us how to have community better. Remembering that we are all OK, but also remembering to strive to be more Loving.”…..

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OK, you just hit the nail on the head with this, the idea of Jesus dying for “the sins of the people” is core to traditional christianity, core to the creators of this website, it is one of those “do not question” doctrines.

One of the greatest leaps into freedom from religion was letting go the scriptures as God written, as unfallable in some way, as having some claim to fame athority. Seeing it for what it is - an epic tribal story of human expirence and/or perception was a transition indeed.

There is a God of love revealed, but until the bibles texts of hate are exposed, we are left thinking “well this is just how God choose to operate” because we limit ourselves to the confines of anothers(bible writers) viewpoints and opinions.

We are not/were not sinners in need of rescue, as you mentioned John, the whole idea of Jesus dying for sins is bankrupt. I did, however, embrace this thinking for many years(in and out of the church) and I know the gratitude felt of thinking this was so, how could one not feel relief thinking God was angry but His Son took the penalty for the punishment? What I had yet to realize though, was that feelings of emence gratitude do not always equal truth, there is no denying its comforting effect, it has the pacifier effect, comfort in a reality that just isn’t so.(I have yet to see a pacifer produce milk)

The truth is we are not in need of rescue, security can never finally be built on violence, we do not(did not) need to be punished either in this life or in the life to come, nor do we need to have some mythical god figure take our place, we miss the humanity of Jesus when we place those doctrines around his neck.

What is needed is to be empowered to step into new possibilties, to step into a more complete humanity, to transend our limits, and the limits of our forefathers. Embracing a humanity that is so whole and so complete that it is expirenced as God-infused.

To understand Jesus as the “scapegoat” is to miss much of what he spoke of to the people of his day, of which much can be translated to the world we live in today. Community. Accepting others just as they are, loving others wastefully - this is the spirit of Jesus I have come to know and expirence.

I am going to say it - divinity is a human concept that can only be found in humanity, when this caught hold of me the earth started to shake I am sure!

Jesus cannot be a divine visitor from the heavenly realm, he can only be a product of humanity, created out of its gene pool. This understanding shook the core of my being to say the least. Jesus is one who expressed the character of God in that he loved wastefully, one so radically human and free, so whole and complete, that the power of life (God) becomes visible and operative in him and through him.

I’ll finish this post up with a quote from J.S.Spong:

The doctrines of the incarnation, the atonement and the Trinity were necessitated in traditional Christianity by the premise of the fall. God alone could overcome the fall, and since Jesus was precieved as rescuer, then Jesus had to be the divine visitor accomplishing this divine task. When the fall is dismissed, traditional Christology cannot help but go with it, and a new Christology must emerge, as a phoenix rising from the ashes of the past, it will be a Christology not based on fall and rescue, sin and salvation or even guilt and forgivness, but on the call to wholeness, the power of love and the enhancement of being….this is the doorwaythrough which Christianity must walk through if it is to live in tomorrows world”

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Although I may have taken a few noticable steps beyond the accepted norm, I appreciate the freedom to share them here. Grace to you all,

Marco

Give me a shout at my email Tatsden@rogers.com……..Seems my wife is intriqued about going to. We would be coming without the kids though. SO look forward to your email with your name and all the details.

John

Peace
Geo

I’m sure Geo didn’t mean to exclude anyone else who would like to come. There’s a good chance we can find a place for out-of-towners to stay. But, if we run out of room, we can pitch a tent somewhere! I’ll even clean up the fertilizer logs from my back yard if I need to!

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania USA

Yes I DO! Have the room. So are you coming?

Peace
Geo