90 Day Challenge!
Sometimes we at Boldgrace get accused of being too hard on the organized church and yet we say time and time again that our comments are not intended toward the people who attend. In fact, we fully accept each and everyone of them just as Christ does. We do speak out of years of experience within the organized church and we offer that experience to be accepted or rejected without any demands or tests of fellowship. On the other hand, the organized church does not accept us. Oh, I know that individuals within do but I’m not talking about those, I’m talking about the leadership who continues to preach a gospel that is grace mixed with law, which is NO gospel at all.
I would like to propose a challenge to those church goers who have doubts about what we stand for at Boldgrace.
I challenge anyone who is brave enough to try it to STOP attending any organized church for just 90 days.
During that time I propose the following:
- Have only one prayer during the 90 day period. The prayer should simply be "THANK YOU". Thank you for being a Perfect God with a Perfect plan that can be trusted despite how we humans mis-understand it.
- Look at every single person you encounter during the 90 day period as completely redeemed and precious in the sight of God. NO JUDGEMENTS about their position with God. Jesus came to reveal to us our true IMAGE and our believing that doesn’t cause it to be true it only brings us peace in the here and now.
- Practice seeing yourself as perfect. Don’t look at the weakness of your flesh but rather look within to the precious creation He intended for you to see.
- If you begin to feel guilt ask yourself where it’s coming from? Remind yourself that your perfection is not based on your performance. Your perfection is a fact, just like gravity. You don’t have to believe in it but it is still true.
- Last, be honest with how you FEEL. If you follow the above suggestions I am confident that you will begin to feel a peace that is nothing short of amazing. If you don’t feel this peace then take another look at why and I suspect it’s because you are feeling the pressure of the organized church’s gospel of grace + law.
If you respond to this by saying NOWAY, then ask yourself why? Is it based on your true conviction of your heart or is it a nagging FEAR that has been training you for bondage all of your life?
BREAK FREE FOR JUST 90 DAYS AND ENJOY AMAZING BOLD GRACE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN YOUR LIFE. If you do you will encounter the meaning of the true gospel that Jesus died for.
Wow! Quite a challenge, Cliff. But one that will pay off for anyone “bold” enough to give it a try. My thoughts, prayers and intentions are with anyone who will do it.
One of the hardest things I ever did was to stop attending church services. Yet, for me it was the only way to realize freedom. Now I can go if I want — or not go if I want. What I can do now that I couldn;t do before was to celebrate the real fellowship of God with humanity — all humanity, and not just the people who showed up in a building on Sunday.
I don’t feel forced to do anything because Christ set us free from mediated relationship with God. We have fellowship with God 24/7. No time, place, day is any more special because it is sanctioned by an institution.
I think for a lot of people — at least in my experience — church is like an addiction. “I can quit any time I want.” “Why would I want to quit?” “I need it.” Once you step out (it’s been true for me), you can speak back into with a clearer perspective. This has allowed me to not leave the people in church behind.
I highly recommend Barbara Brown Taylor’s book “Leaving Church.” This is her memoir in which she chronicles her story of find faith and spirituality by leaving church. It’s very enlightening.
Don R…you are right, it is quite a challenge, but I make it with nothing but love and desire for all my fellow travellers to at least taste what real freedom is. Thanks for helping encourage someone who might be considering this challenge.
Kevin, You have described in a personal way what a benefit this challenge could be for others. I appreciate the mention of the book also.
Interesting challenge to say the least - it’s rather useless for me - I have been outside of church walls for like 7 years or so as is.
But I think there is a lot to be learned by taking such a challenge - to help in the changing of the way we view others and how faith impacts our lives. I see it as a good time to reflect on our faith beliefs and to challenge/change them.
Thanks for the input Societyvs.
Hey Cliff
Again I realized something. I havnt had the church experience that most of you have. So its hard for me to imagine how oppressive that must have been. I will try to remember that . Yet with that said Cliff, I feel no need to stop going to my church for 90 days ;). ………..Anyways even if I did, that would be giving them a break .
John T…..you notice I said the challenge is for those who have doubts about what we stand for at boldgrace. Obviously you understand the freedom we speak about but I doubt if most in your congregation do. I will continue to hope the very best results for the message you bring within the church. Just out of curiousity, have you had anyone in the church who goes along with your understanding that we are already perfect and don’t need fixing?
Hey Cliff
Actually its funny…….though they are no where near admitting it….I have a few who we would consider fundamentalist who are very curious about what I say.
They’re assessing you and preparing their strategy to suck you back into the fold. They can’t “fix” you until they know what your problem is.
To me, this challenge is like someone who has lived with an abusive husband, then manages to break free of that relationship, then assumes that everyone else’s relationships are like the one she had and gives the married women she knows to a “90-day challenge.” Just because she had a bad experience with marriage is no reason for me to take a break from my husband! Or church!
John T. Wrote:
Again I realized something. I havnt had the church experience that most of you have.
Geo here:
John have you or do you presently hold any positions in your church? Elder, deacon, department head, teacher, etc.? Or some position where you have to report or are under some group or board?
Peace
Geo
Connie, you are well indoctrinated. Congratulations!
If living in an abusive, manipulative, controlling, hurtful, overbearing relationship is something you need to do, then by all means… give it all you got (it’s going to TAKE it from you anyway)!
The problem is, we’ve allowed ourselves to become captive to a system that promises much, and delivers little. Why do we do that? Because the system tells us we need to!
The only way to really see what’s going is to step away from it and look back at it from a safe distance.
To me, the husband analogy doesn’t work. Not all husbands are bad.
I’m not saying all churches are bad, but they certainly all have some of the characteristics that lead to control and manipulation. Of course, many of us seem to have a need to be controlled and manipulated. I’m not sure why, but it seems to revert back to the “slave” mentality that we’re so easily sucked into… “come be with us, and we’ll take care of you! Sure, we may ask things of you, but it will be worth it, won’t it?”
Bruce, The husband analogy does work because just as not all husbands are bad, not all churches are bad. It is a mistake to generalize your experience to all churches everywhere in Christendom. Not all husbands are abusive, not all families are abusive, not all churches are abusive. Some are, but not all. In my opinion, you are exhibiting an extreme form of judgmentalism when you insist on generalizing your experiences to everyone in churches everywhere. You are entitled to do that, of course, but don’t expect everyone to buy it.
Connie,
I completely understand your position and respect it. The point of the challenge is only for those who are feeling the bondage of religion and are looking for an alternative. We at Boldgrace believe that Christ elliminated all requirements by us to be right with God. So, if a church teaches that you have even ONE requirement to be OK with God then that shifts the responsiblity completely on US.
Now the rub…..Does your church teach YOU are required to do or believe anything to be OK with God?
If so, what? And are you fullfilling your part?
If you are required to DO or BELIEVE anything then you are not FREE. Christ said that he would set us free and we would be FREE indeed. He did this by completely fullfilling ALL the requirements that humans would need to do or believe to be OK with God. I don’t presently know of ANY churches that teach this and that is why you will often hear us speak in a negative manner concerning the organized church. (not the people)
I personally had many wonderful moments and memories while attending church, but I also recognize that during it all I was never truly free. If you say you feel the freedom we are talking about then by all means this challenge is not for you. But of course I personally know how very special you are.
I like the way Kevin said it best: “I don’t feel forced to do anything because Christ set us free from mediated relationship with God. We have fellowship with God 24/7. No time, place, day is any more special because it is sanctioned by an institution.”
From my experience I don’t know of any churches who will tell you are free to choose a relationship with God outside their doctrinal walls. If so, that church would have no problem with someone trying the 90 day challenge.
My perspective is this: There are free people inside and outside of organized churches. There are enslaved people inside and outside of organized churches. I believe I can be a free person and still attend church on a semi-regular basis and that is what I choose to do. I can respect those who choose not to attend. My problem comes when someone like Bruce dubs me “well-indoctinated” (a rather insulting thing to say) without knowing anything about me other than the fact that I attend church.
Certainly if someone feels that “the bondage of religion” is interfering with his relationship with God, then he should do something about it. But, some of the things that are said here seem to go to the extreme of judging all people who go to church as enslaved or “well-indoctrinated” and I don’t think that is accurate. You can be just as judgmental outside a church as you were when you were inside if you aren’t careful and some here are dangerously close to that, in my opinion.
Geo
About the only thing Ive ever helped out on in Church was ushering. They know better than to let me have a speaking Gig.
John
Hey Guys
Stop picking on Connie, or I will have to come down there and whoops, I am coming down there………..oooohhhhhh you better watch out.
True freedom is when you go somewhere and they tell you what to do and you either by your own free will, decide to tell them to shut up or smile and think in your head(theres no way im going to do that)….but you recognize much of what they do you like and you are free enough to let them Rant.
Sometimes when I read what you guys say I get this sense youre all suffering from Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. I think you all need a massage
John, I think you may be a kindred spirit. I could use a massage, too, by the way!
Hey Connie
I think were all kindred spirits, we just dont know it lol. So tell me where are you from and what do you like about your Church?
John
John,
I’m from Florence, Alabama. (You may have picked up on the fact that Cliff is my Yankee cousin.) What I like about the experience of church in general is simply gathering with others for an expression of worship and for fellowship. Though I also enjoy times of solitude, I find it uplifting and encouraging to meet with others. What I like about my particular church is that they are a group of sweet, loving people who are open to considering new ideas and seem committed to spiritual growth. I don’t always agree with everything that everybody says, but I feel free to express my point of view if I want to, though sometimes I just tune it out. I have found that many things are just not worth hassling over!
Connie is your last name lard - for real? I always find last names like that interesting - must be a shortened form for something else?
I agree with Connie also - it all depends on our view of church and these days I like the community (and the faith expression at times). I attended church last week and found it wasn’t all that bad - then again - my views have changed much from a time of extended reflection and learning. I am also more sure of what the focus of the gospel is - love and love somemore. I love those people in church also - even if - they devalue their humanity for their faith.
Connie, please don’t think I’m picking on you! I pick on everybody. And I dearly wish someone would have picked on me many, many years ago! I often state ideas in outrageous terms, because that’s what it often takes to get someone’s attention. And when I make an observation like “well-indoctrinated”… that’s what I see! You may observe me as a trouble-making blowhard without an ounce of sense… and that’s OK, because that’s what you see. I’m OK with that. I can take it. Call it like you see it, and I will also.
History tells me that any organization that professes to be a “religious authority” is a dangerous thing. Just like you, I had found many religious organizations that I thought were safe, even blissful… but time will tell the tale. Churches keep talking about “community” and “fellowship”, but usually provide only artificial community and contrived fellowship (look deeply below the surface, if you dare to). Truly, everything they do revolves around money and growth (so they’ll have more money). Chances are, if you’re sitting in the pews, you won’t see that. They hide it very well. They have commitments to pay. They have bills to pay. They have programs to pay for. They have to spend money to bring more people in so they’ll have more people to bring more money in.
Oh, there I go again! You see, I’ve had many experiences on the “inside” of the machine called “church”, and I am sickened by it. Sure, on the audience side… those attending the program and watching the performance think everything is rosy and lovely. But there is an insidiousness creeping around the inner circles that thrives on control, power, and manipulation. I’ve seen it. I was it.
We may never agree on the value (or lack of) of the church system, and that’s OK. I only hope to open some eyes and hearts to, from my perspective, the true nature of the organizations of religion, and offer a wake up call to those who are beginning to see what I’m saying.
Sweetie, if the church thing is working for you, and you’re getting something good out of it without having to give too much up, then that’s good. Keep going with all your heart! I hope you find great happiness, and grow into whatever you wish to be. I say this very sincerely. And I hope we can be friends despite our differences.
My love for you compels me to speak my heart. If you don’t/can’t receive it, then so be it. If my comments seem directed at you, or offend you, I assure you it is not my intention. My passion is to speak the warning of my experiences, and the experiences of all those who have come to the same conclusion. And, this place is the pulpit that has been created to say what needs said. I’m very sorry that it rubs you the wrong way.
Great peace to you!
I am the fortunate one here in that I know both Bruce and Connie. I know Bruce is one of the most sincere, loving, and non-judgement people that I know. I also know Connie is one of the sweetest, loving, and caring people that I know. As John T once said it is very difficult to really get a sense of people you are talking to on the internet unless you have seen them and know them face to face.
We are often misunderstood at Boldgrace because our message is in direct opposition to the message of the organized church. We say again and again that we are not judging the people who attend but we understand why they get riled up by our message. As Bruce says, we who have been in leadership circles know that things are quite different sitting in the pew vs sitting in a leadership meeting that is always about money and power. I also think that if most pastors were truly honest with their congregations they would actually tell how unhappy they are. Listen to the following statistics.
At the time of writing, there are reportedly more than 500,000 paid pastors serving churches in the United States. Among this massive number of religious professionals, consider the following statistics that testify to the lethal danger of the pastoral office:
94 percent feel pressured to have an ideal family.
90 percent work more than forty-six hours a week.
81 percent say they have insufficient time with their spouses.
80 percent believe that pastoral ministry affects their family negatively.
70 percent do not have someone they consider a close friend
70 percent have lower self-esteem than when they entered the ministry.
50 percent feel unable to meet the demands of the job.
80 percent are discouraged or deal with depression.
More than 40 percent report that they are suffering from burnout, frantic schedules, and unrealistic expectations.
33 percent consider pastoral ministry an outright hazard to the family.
33 percent have seriously considered leaving their position in the last year.
40 percent of pastoral resignations are due to burnout.
If these statistics are true ask yourself how honest is your pastor being with you?
I think this tells the story of how a lot of church folk really feel about church.
Connie…..please don’t take that personal…..if you are happy then I am happy for you, but even as we discuss this I constantly have christians who tell me how they really feel but they just don’t think they can break away……so sad.
Connie,
I just saw that you are from Florence, AL. I’m just a couple hours away over in Scottsboro, home of the world-famous Unclaimed Baggage Center. I actually have some ties to Florence. My wife was born in Florence, and I spent some time there as a child when my sister lived there. So it’s neat knowing that someone who posts here at BG is from an area I’m familiar with.
I’m curious what denomination of church you attend there in Florence. You don’t have to answer if you don’t want to.
Lastly, some great stuff in the comments here. Keep it up, guys & gals!
Peace,
Jason
I would like to add that my best friend James (Chaplain Roy to you guys at Blod Grace) was in the ministry (Baptist) for 25 years and can verify what Cliff and Bruce have said. He will tell you that it’s all about money. It is sad, but true.
To Connie,
Your first comment makes no sense to me? If and When you break free from an abusive marriage it is because you acknowledge the strength and courage in yourself which had always been there. You accept who you are therefore finding that you have more to offer the next man that comes along. You instantly acknowledge the tools within yourself and those tools lead you to a more honest and trusting relationship with someone who will be able to love you for who you are. It may take a lifetime for some to acknowledge the truth within themselves and for others it will be instant. If you break free you will be free to help guide another woman or man into the same freedom you’ve found, but ultimately that woman or man is the one who has to acknowledge the freedom. You can open the door, but she has to step out of the room. Does that make sense?
Bold Grace isn’t about judging people who go to Church it is about the organization they are in that is holding them back from their freedom and soon you will find that the organization or “the abusive type men or women” are all the same, they are abusive. It is a learned behavior. I would never want to be a part of that kind of relationship again. I don’t want anyone holding me back. It is my life and Religion is MAN MADE. God had nothing to do with religion. I do not need to be a part of religion to understand God. God lives inside of me. All of the answers are in me.
Why support an organization that holds people back and you can’t tell me that they don’t hold you back.
Hi everyone
I just can’t agree that the church is all about money and power. It is only that it is practical to think about and discuss money. We all have to budget and pay bills.
The church that started in Acts GREW! It burst out of the houses. If a church community has grown to a size that it can afford to own a building then that building can be used to the glory of God for lots of great things. I know that doesn’t always happen, but it is a positive plan. If the church owns a building, then there are bills to pay. That’s a fact of life. It’s being responsible. The leadership HAS to consider money.
I also think it is fantastic if someone wants to be a paid pastor. They deserve every penny they are paid (especially when I read Cliff’s list!) The church community are usually willing to support the pastor financially as they are in partnership together serving God. They are family.
So there is good and bad. But I feel really strongly that on the whole the motives I have seen are good. And money is the currency that enables a lot of good things to be done.
Hi again! Rather than try to respond to each of you, I will just say that I have no objection to however it is that an individual decides to express his or her spirituality, whether it includes church attendance or not. I simply think that you are assuming too much when you think that all churches everywhere in Christendom are abusive in the way you describe, or that all churches “hold people back”, as Mindy put it. (Lest you think I have always been on the outskirts, I will let you know that I was raised a preacher’s daughter and was married to a deacon for a number of years, so I have a good working knowledge of all the “stuff” that goes on behind the scenes. And some of it involves the nuts and bolts of paying the bills, which requires money and all that goes along with that. And sometimes there are power plays between church leaders, and that can be ugly. It’s not all sweetness and light, and I am well aware of that.)
Still, I believe there is value in having a church family with whom you share your life. I don’t have to agree with everyone about everything to still have relationship with them. As JohnT alluded to in one of his posts, for me freedom is being able to let others have their thoughts and ideas and I have my own. We may share these at times, and we may choose to remain silent about some things. Our relationship doesn’t depend on our agreeing on everything. I am fortunate in having friends and family with ideas that range all along the continuum. Some of these people go to church with me and some don’t. My “best friend” since high school lives in the same neighborhood I do now, and we walk together 3 mornings a week. She still attends a more conservative church in town and is very involved there. I feel no responsibility to “enlighten” her that my views don’t match hers in all areas any more. She is an intelligent woman and knows where I go to church now, so she probably has an idea that I have ideas that are different from hers, but seems to feel no compulsion to “correct” me, either. We just enjoy a relationship that dates back to our childhood and has included many significant moments over the years. I feel the same way about Cliff here at BoldGrace. While I am interested in his ideas, that is not what forms our relationship. We have family ties that were formed in childhood and whatever happens with him theologically, he will always be Cliffy to me, and very dear.
Bruce, I do not see you as a troubling blowhard, but as a sincere person who is troubled by abuse he has seen in a church and makes the erroneous assumption that everyone in every church everywhere is suffering from having been “indoctrinated” by the evil institution known as church. I feel that your intentions are honorable and have no doubt that, if I met you, I would like you very much.
To answer Jason, I attend Magnolia Church of Christ, which has been in existence for about 15 years. It was formed as kind of a breakaway from other CoC’s in the area in response to disagreement over whether lines must be drawn in the sand over superficial issues (sacred cows to many in CoC’s, like instrumental music, etc.). I was living in Nashville when all of that happened, but when I moved back to this area after having been away for a few years, this is where I have chosen to worship. We have good relationships with other denominations in our area, but other CoC’s consider us renegades and we have been “written up” for our having “fallen away.” It is what it is. We are certainly not a perfect group of people, but there is much love there, and for me, that’s what it’s all about.
I want to apologize, as I feel that I have distracted from Cliff’s original post. This is your blog and it is honestly not my intention to be divisive. As Cliff knows, in person I am a rather quiet person, but in writing it seems I talk too much.
Societyvs - Yes, my last name is Lard, for real!
Connie,
You have never and will never distract from any of my posts. I love and enjoy every word you write and we here at boldgrace truly want everyone to feel completely free to express what they feel. I believe honest dialog is the very most important thing to maintain on this site and we should never need to apologize for being where we are at present in our spiritual journey. One thing I believe we all agree on is that God stands by us all and is gently moving us closer and closer to understanding Him and ourselves. Love Ya Connie and please keep writing your heart because I want to hear it.
Connie
Praise the Lord………..A Churchie whos enlightened
John(tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Cliff, I particularly loved the way you phrased this: “God stand by us all and is gently moving us closer and closer to understanding Him and ourselves.” That is exactly the way I see it, and for me that says it all!
JohnT - “Churchie?!” LOL! What a delightful term! Did you coin that yourself?
Cliff and Don and All the others at Boldgrace
Heres an analogy in regards to the money I freely choose to share with the Church.
When I walk in the downtown of my City, I regularly come across people who are in desperate need of money. Most are addicts and completely out of whack with society. When I freely choose to give to them, many of my Friends say that they will just use the money for drugs or alcohol. My Response to them is.
“Someone elses money gets their drugs or alcohol, mine buys their food for the day”
Ladies and gents, its all about perspective.
John
Are women allowed to teach in the Church of Christ? I was raised in the Church of Christ. I found out later in life that when me and my sisters would go up front and sing a song that the “Elders” of the Church didn’t think it was right so we were asked to never sing again. We couldn’t
dance either or play instruments. Those are just a few of their politics.
Now you tell me if that is a cult? YES, for me it is and this is only my experience, but I can tell you this. When that same church asked me and my family to leave it was heart breaking and I can tell you that it wasn’t the only Church in my life that was disappointing. I don’t hate those people. Hell, I have loved many of them and still do, but I sure do think that their Cultish ways are sick and as much as I love those people they sure didn’t love themselves enough or us enough to say, “HEY, we love for the girls to sing.” NOPE, they sure didn’t. Now, you tell me how ignorant that is. Now, that is just my experience.
Being free from all of that pain has been the best thing I have ever done. I wish all of those who are here on this site searching for something, but are going to Church the very best. I wish for you great things. If you find it at Church then wonderful. If you find it there then you are a fortunate one.
Connie, thanks for assuming that I was “abused” by the church. I never thought of myself that way, but the thing I do know is that, when one has had a life-changing positive experience, and finds one’s self moving from a darkness into the light, and loving the light so much more than the darkness… you just want to tell people about it!
I was a hard-fast participant in organized religion for some 35 years of my life. I fought hard to belong, and feel accepted. I became “one of them” and toted the line 100%. I did it because I felt I was required to, and I felt it was the right thing to do. After all, that’s what they told me.
Then, a miraculous set of circumstances brought me to a new place. A place full of liberty and life, and exciting place, full of danger, but full of hope.
This place, this Boldgrace website, is a place for those who are seeking something more than traditional religious organizations tend to offer. It is a place where those being pulled into the freedom of a new life can come to find encouragement and direction. Those like yourself will be offended and embittered over what is said here. We understand that, and while we love your company, we still must say what we think needs to be said.
Sometimes, someone’s truth can be another’s poison, and that’s just the way life is. I have to wonder deep inside, why people who are not ready to hear these things come here in the first place. But, then again, everybody is somewhere for a reason. I am in you, and you are in me. We are all a part of each other, and a part of God. So everything works toward good… even the offenses, the anger, and the pain.
Know that you are loved, dear friend. Despite the opposing ideas, I and we all love you deeply. We will always hope the best for you, and would like it very much if you would hang around in spite of our differences.
Mindy, You will find varying degrees of beliefs about women’s roles in groups which call themselves Churches of Christ. Each congregation is theoretically independent of all others, as there is no national governing board. Sounds like you were involved with a very conservative group of them. At Magnolia, we have a worship team which includes women and they lead our singing. We do not usually use instruments, not because we believe it is wrong, but because most of us enjoy singing acapella. At times we do have instrumental accompaniment, but not usually. As for dancing, that is not a part of our worship, though I personally would have no problem with an interpretive dance being included.
I am sorry that you had a bad experience in a Church of Christ, and I don’t wish to minimize the pain that you have endured, but it is a mistake to base your assumptions about all churches on that experience. While I have not found a group with whom I totally agree on all issues, I find it best not to use labels such as “cult” for most churches, as it is a perjorative term and does not really describe most churches I have known. Perhaps the church you were with was a cult, I don’t know.
A beautiful memory for me is when I came to your grandfather’s funeral and you and the other girls sang “His Eye is on the Sparrow.” I still think of all of you and get misty-eyed every time I hear that song (which is pretty often, as my husband is a big Gaither fan and we listen to their program on TV most Saturday nights and that song is an old favorite of theirs). You have a gift and I know that God is honored when you use your voice in a way that blesses others, whatever the setting may be.
Mindy, you come from a very close-knit family, and I would imagine that you find much love and support within your family. Not everyone is blessed with the kind of biological family that you have, but may find that kind of love and support in a church. At the church I attend, I see many examples of people who function as “grandparents” to children who, for whatever reason, do not have biological grandparents. I see older people mentoring younger people in different ways. I see those who have faced traumatic life experiences being used to support other who now face similar circumstances. I believe that God is honored when these things occur and that is why I choose to be a part of it. I am sure that I do not totally agree with everyone there on every issue, but for me that is simply not important.
Bruce, I am neither offended nor embittered, though some of the things that are said here are pretty insulting to those of us that attend church. As for your wondering why people like me come here, I came here because Cliff invited me. Otherwise, it is unlikely I would have even ever seen this site.
Neither offended nor embittered, but insulted? OK then. Still I feel badly that your feelings were hurt. But, that’s OK, my feelings were hurt too. For 35 years my feelings were hurt, and I didn’t even know it until it was too late. I had wasted so much of my life trying to conform to a religious system that:
1). Teaches the wrong message about who God is and what He expects from us.
2). Manipulates people to do its bidding through the use of guilt producing teachings.
3). Indoctrinates people to conform to its burdensome agendas and practices through the authority it assumes over their lives.
If you can freely participate, even pay for, a system like that, more power to you. Whatever your agenda, you make it possible for these “leaders” to continue to grow their little kingdoms of power. I love the people in the KKK too, but I feel I must warn them that they will someday regret what that system has done to them. I feel sorry for them, and believe it my duty my fellow humans to speak up whenever I can.
If you enjoy your church, for whatever reason (even non-religious reasons), that’s wonderful. But there are many people on the fringe looking for answers, and looking for a way out. I am here for them, my dear brothers and sisters who seek an escape path from the system that has trapped them and robbed them of their freedom. They come in great numbers, and someone must be there for them.
Bruce, Surely you can see that comparing churchgoers to members of the KKK is insulting?! However, even though you choose to be insulting I have chosen not to be hurt, offended or embittered by your remarks. You are a friend of Cliff’s and that is good enough for me.
You are correct, friend. I will not say another word to you about it.
Bruce.
My Mom told me a good one when I was younger, she said, “Son, no one can walk on you, unless you lie down.”
I took the challenge 4 years ago this month. I have voluntarily attended a “regular” church service maybe 3 times in those years. I can honestly say from my personal perspective that I am much happier out of the church, than in it.
My judgmemts and condemnations of certain groups of people are going away. (In fact, I just returned from attending and speaking at a gay man’s funeral in Dallas) Many Christian songs were song, along with prayers, and praise to Jesus. Yes, some men were dressed in drag. One sang a solo of Amazing Grace.
My fear of a “bi-polar” God is 95% gone. I’m no longer afraid not to tithe.
My family has never had a more blessed and prosperous year.
The old standard “God will let bad things happen to you” scriptures like, “forsaking not the assembly…”, and “binding the devil”, “pleading the blood”, “pray without ceasing”, “the rich man and Lazarus”, etc. don’t bother me anymore.
I love the the entire Romans 8 chapter. “There is NO condemnation in Christ” and No thing separates us from God’s love (not even unbelief)
The list of stats that Cliff posted about pastors is absolutely true. I experienced every one of those pressures, but was afraid to leave, because I was afraid of God. My three sons all attended the Chrsitian school at our church and graduated. Since then, all 3 have been delivered from the fear that we all were in bondage to.
I have never felt closer to God, been in more peace, and have more purpose to life than I do right at this moment. I do admit that my daily job as a hospice chaplain gives me opportunity that many would not have .
But even when I’m not on the job, I find hungry, depressed, and searching souls everywhere.
So, I also encourage others to try Cliff’s challenge. You will be glad you did.
Thanks so much for sharing your experience with this challenge James Roy. I know myself that no one could have ever told me I would actually be this happy without the organized church.
For those of you who would like to know what the straw was that broke the camel’s back:
I was pastoring a small little country church. They were a very loving group of people who had allowed me to preach this gospel of grace and peace to its fullest. And then I hosted the very first Grace Gathering in August of 2007. People came from nine different states to hear one of the greatest speakers I have ever heard on this subject of grace. His name was Mike Williams and he just happens to be a gay man. Mike is one of the most beautiful human beings that I have ever known and when he speaks of this grace (with great authority from the scriptures) he moves your heart in the way of peace that is unspeakable. During the week-end of the Grace Gathering I felt it odd that very few of my congregation attended any of the sessions even though they all knew how much it met to me. Late on Saturday afternoon I found out that there had been a meeting of the minds behind my back and there were some who were so offended at what was going on that they had threatened to leave the church basically over me. Within a few weeks after the Grace Gathering my wife and I finally realized that this message of pure grace couldn’t even be accepted in one of the most loving groups of people I had ever been avilliated with. I don’t blame them because I understand their many years of indoctrination of the organized church’s message was too much to overcome. The bottom line is that the Good News is such good news that christians just can’t believe it.
The message of bold grace is simple: Christ redeemed ALL men at the cross. Yes, believing the message of the gospel does bring salvation of the mind and great peace, but whether you believe or not you are still redeemed.
The message of the organized church is not so simple: Christ will redeem you IF, and that IF is a BIG IF and none of them agree on what the IF is? Every time I have asked any church attending person what their church teaches concerning what a person must do to be considered redeemed I can never get a straight answer and that is exactly why we have 33,001 different brands of christian denominations.
Yes, I left the church, but not because I was bitter. I left quite sad because I finally realized after 35 years that I had been fighting a losing battle the whole time. During the Grace gathering we had gay couples who drove many miles to hear this message of grace. They sat in our pews and were able to be themselves and felt our love for them. I never felt more proud to be a pastor then I did on that week-end. I vowed I would never again be apart of any organization who thought they had more power then the blood of Christ. Yes, there are some very loving groups out there, I know because I was with one, but their love was bound by their message of an angry God who would someday reject most of humanity who didn’t tow the line.
Since I have left the organized church last September I suffered some of the most difficult times of my life. Some in the church have even said God was punishing me, but I can say with great confidence that God never left my side and my faith in Him and the message of bold grace has only grown stronger, not weaker. Like Bruce, I can no longer sit back and be silent when I know that at the very least a majority of churches are teaching and preaching a gospel that is NOT GOOD NEWS. I seek not to offend anyone but my heart is bound by this truth that burns like a fire within me and that fire demands that I SPEAK. I receive NOTHING in the way of monitary things for preaching this gospel, in fact it sometimes comes at great cost but I hope that in some small way I can be apart of God’s great plan to set the captives free from a sytem of religion that says God is not powerful enough on HIS own to redeem and save mankind.
Connie…..I hope you will continue to write and speak your heart. What will make this site beyond the ordinary is our ability to love each other on a level that goes beyond the words we write or the ideas we express. Where the Spirit of Christ is there is FREEDOM.
I love and appreciate everyone who has added to this discussion on both sides of the issue and I for one am always trying to read every comment with an open mind that I can always learn something new.
Cliff, Hearing your story gave me an understanding I didn’t have before. You have displayed great courage and have gone to a place most are not ready or able to go. You are quite an amazing person and I wish we could have been closer through the years. I love you very much, and anything else I have said or could say just pales in significance.
Good Morning Cliff
For starters I like the way you speak, and I like the fact that you stand behind your principles. I know many times thats hard. One thing I notice and I know I have alluded to this in previous posts. Why do you think Christians, whether they believe in All saving grace or not, actually NEED a SAVIOUR…………..Are we that messed up that GOD needs to save us. And if we are, then what does that say about His perfect creation. I believe in my heart, that we All are actually OK. I think the only thing we really have to do is open our eyes to that fact.
I think its not whether we trust that GOD will save All of us. I think its whether we trust that He made a good creation and that we are OK even when we dont understand the entire process.
[Connie alert - please don’t read this]
John, maybe what we need to be “saved from” is our mistrust of God?
Maybe our thinking has been twisted (by religion) to see God of someone who cannot be trusted?
Maybe religion is born from a mistrust of God? Think about it.
That was my whole point about “repentance”. What is it we should repent from? Sin? Self? Everything?
No… we simply need to think differently about God… who He is… and what He expects from us. Learn the truth to those questions, and we will find ours immersed into an unimaginable peace! We think religion (a faithful adherence to a set of beliefs and requirements brought on by those beliefs) will bring us peace, but I don’t think it ever can. Religion will never answer those questions in a way that will lead us to the heart of God. It can’t… because it would be destroyed on account of it. Religion works hard to protect itself, and promote itself… even if it has to devour everything in its path. It feeds on its followers, and consumes the Life from them.
[/Connie alert - please resume reading]
(Connie, I’m just playing with you, please don’t take offense)
John T
I have never thought that Jesus came to make us perfect, but rather to reveal to us our perfection we have always had. So, in a sense he is a Savior. As Bruce and others have said, our salvation is from a mindset that is following the path of religion that will always be a dead end. I also believe that the tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil represents religion. Our creater allowed us to partake of that fruit but did warn us it had NO LIFE in it. In His infinite wisdom He knew we had to find out for ourselves and that eventually in His perfect plan He would help us once again see the perfect image from which we were created. That’s what I think Isaiah met when he said: “Every knee will bow and every tonque will give praise to God.” At some point in our existence we will all be overwelmed by the Glory of our Creation.
Connie,
I have always felt your presence even though we have been separated by miles and time. The Christ in me fully knows the Christ in you. I still see your sweet face and it always brings a smile and a warmth in my heart. Thanks for suffering with us here at Boldgrace.
Thank you Connie. You are very kind.
[Cliff said] I also believe that the tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil represents religion.
That hits the nail on the head, Cliff!
First, there was perfect relationship with God. Then, there was religion. Religion told the people that they were disconnected from God, and when the people were adequately afraid, it promised a way for them to get back into perfect relationship with God. But, it never fulfilled that promise because it had no power to do so. It came about as a result of a lie, and would always fall short of it’s mission. Religion would “fulfill” itself out of business if it actually delivered it’s promise to reconnect people to God. Instead, it decided to offer extra value to those seeking God. It offered (at a price) the things people most wanted (or at least thought they wanted) in life… “community”, “authority”, “worship”, and “teaching”. And people bought it. They still do.
Business is business, and organized religion is nothing more than a business. Businesses have to make a profit, or they must admit defeat and close their doors. That’s why it’s so critically important for them to feed on people’s fears. They need people, money, and resources to stay afloat. I don’t think there is anything wrong with that. I just wish they would call it what it is, let people in on their little secret to manipulate them through fear… and let people decide whether or not it is worth while.
Bruce, I am an insatiable, incurable reader of just about anything, so how can I NOT read something - especially when I’m asked not to read it?! Guess I am a true daughter of Eve, huh?
You can relax, though, on my account. I have already decided not to be offended.
You’re sweet, Connie. I hope you stick around and share your insights with us. I really do!
I hate the thought that the things I say might push you away, but I am who I am, and I’ve been given this mission. I am learning how to be a bit more tactful, but sometimes the message requires that you just blurt it out.
It’s great that people on Bold Grace are able to have differences yet still truly love each other. To me that’s what church should be, a gathering of people with unconditional love. Maybe we can consider ourselves a “church” lol.
Anyway I’d love to take the challenge but unfortunately I can’t until I move into my new place in the fall.
It’s been very interesting to read the many perspectives on church. I’ve been raised in church my whole life like many people. Where I live Southern Baptist theology dominates.Even in the public schools there are always adveristments for church events and Bible verses posted. We literally do have a church on every corner. I believe that most people in the churches and religious organizations I’ve experienced are good sincere people. I have nothing against them and think that their motives are sincere.
However, the message they often deliver is toxic. It’s “God loves you but you better make a decision for Him before it’s too late”. There also tends to be a lot of bashing towards liberals, gays, Muslims, Democrats, etc. I once held those views myself. I remember a Muslim friend I had in high school got really hurt by a speaker who used his message to put down the Muslim faith. It was that point that I started abandoning my old Baptist faith. It’s been a long two year journey and I’m still nowhere near where I want to be but I’m getting there.
This is not to speak for all churches. I would never criticize anyone who chooses to attend a church. My problem with organized religion is the obligation to do something to be right with God. I’ve seen people from all walks of life torn up spiritually from the 16 year old girl who’s scared of going to hell for having sexual thoughts to the lady in her 70s who heard of a near death experience of an atheist burning in hell. The people who taught them this probably meant well. I think a lot of people don’t realize how toxic a message can be. Again, I’m not saying this is true of every church and one must do what they feel is right in their heart. As for me, when I move to my new place in the fall, I will not be attending church at least for awhile. I’d like to have time to sort out my beliefs. I wish all of ya’ll the best in your journeys regardless of church attendance.
Wow. What a conversation. Thanks for everyone for being so open.
I talked with a friend yesterday who was burned out on his church. I told him about the 90 day challenge, and he might just dive in.
Blessings,
Keivn
Kirara,
Thanks for sharing. I too like to think of our gathering here as what Christ really wanted for us all along.
Kiara- I was a Southern Baptist for 59 years, the grandson, and son of a deacon. I was one myself for 21+ years. I know whereof you speak.
Add me to the list of former Southern Baptists. Seems there’s quite a few of us here.
As a half-hearted attempt at humor, but also an observation: Why is it that I’ve never met a burnt-out Episcopalian?
I have to say this isn’t much of a challenge for me! The last time I attended church was a few months ago for a friend’s baptism and I have to say I hated it. (it was at Saddleback Church) Before that, I can’t remember the last time I had attended. It was probably sometime when I was about 16. I am 23 now and I have never looked back. I was never attatched. I guess I have always felt I knew all along that church was not right for me. But I also always felt like there was much much more to God than anyone could ever know or preach. Even if I wanted to go to church, I wouldn’t have the time considering Vinny (my son) is keeping me busy and burns me out. And to anyone who finds not going to church a challenge, try going somewhere like a museum, a park or somewhere fun and out of the ordinary. You’ll be in a whole new zone and enjoy the world God created for us.
Thanks for sharing Michelle. And you are right…..there is sooooo much more to God.
I will say something about the challenge - it’s a good time for reflection and to challenge ourselves to ‘what we believe’ (about God, others, teachings, and systems).
For me, I haven’t attended a church as a real member for about 7 years, the time away has helped me to make peace with God also…to find out what was the point of my faith. I have arrived at the idea of living it - that’s the point - and having the right to ask questions and feign orthodoxy (because it makes little sense to me). But maybe we all need this experience for our own benefit?
Sad to say, I have attended church the last 2 weeks - because I want to see what is there (proof). I feel it is too much about worship and not enough about community. However, I have many problems with the way church is done, it is not about me per se - but about the whole community (even if they fail to see that). I have my qualms, someone else likely also does, but what needs to develop is a place where we all work together (which is like this blog put into real life). I strive for that idea - may not happen - but one that does not try never finds out.
Wow, I agree about the great conversation and honesty here. This is absolutely beautiful!!!!!!
Speaking of Southern Baptist….I failed to mention that I was SBC seminary grad. with a Master of Religious Education degree. That basically qualifies one to be an employee of a SBC church, which I was for 25 yr. in 3 different churches. I taught SS, evangelism, stewardship, deliverance, judgmentalism, fear of God, etc. I also was the business manager of the money. The “ministry” rose and fell upon attendance and offerings.
We were a “third wave revival church” (don’t ask) When an extended revival finally came, many people and lots of money came in.
We had many legendary preachers come to our church during those years.
For the most part, it was just good clean entertainment and tons of religion. As it sometimes is expressed…….HOLY CRAP.
I have not sat in a SBC church in 6 years.
That’s just my story and opinion…. I could be wrong.
ChaplainRoy7@aol.com
I have met and spent time with Chaplain Roy aka James Roy (secret is out Chappy! Now they really know who you are! hahaha!) . And I can tell you that if you ever get to the Dallas - Ft. Worth Area he and Don R.
are two people you really should try to have a meal with! The few hours that I have gotten to spend with them on 2-3 different occasions were some of the most fun and enlightening time I have ever had.
Peace
Geo
I’ve been a deacon in the Church of Christ and am regularly teaching bible classes to all age groups. Currently I’m teaching “Parables of Jesus” to a class of baby boomers even though I’m only 31. It’s challenging to say the least, but it’s where I’ve been asked to step in and help.
I am fully onboard with the BoldGrace message even if I’m not a believer in the substitutionist redemption model (I’m more in line with Cliff’s ideas on the matter). For now I’m continuing to grow and learn while still finding a way serve in the context of a local congregation.
There are many things about the church I don’t agree with. The existence of an expensive building (ironic for a Restoration-movement church, since there were no Christian worship centers until Constantine gave the religion credibility in the empire). The list of rules and limits placed on salvation. The limited role of women. The focus on formal worship as if God needs that to be happy. Yet I’m still there.
I’ll be bluntly honest and say that the primary reason is that my wife is not ready to leave. Not to sound condescending, but I’ve always been a little “ahead” of her in this journey of discovering grace. She has come amazingly far in just a few short years, but the prospect of leaving church would be offensive to her at this point. And when it comes to choosing between her and almost anything else in life, I’ll choose her. So at this moment, choosing her means going to “church”.
Her father was a minister for 30 years and is now a chaplain. I know he’s been thinking about the home-church model for a while, and one day we may find ourselves doing something far different than the “drive to the building, sit in the pew” routine on Sunday mornings. Or maybe not… who knows? I don’t have it all planned out, I’m just a dude trying to do his best in his own little way in his own little world.
Grace and peace to all of you!
–Michael
Michael,
Know that I am always with you in spirit and love hoping that where I could not reach you will. And you are right to put your marriage at a high consideration in all decisions. Best of wishes.
Cliff
Hi Michael Redlefty and Cliff
What do you mean by substitutionist redemption model?
Thanks
Julia
Julia,
That God could not accept us due to the fall of Adam/Eve, and to bridge the gap God himself (or a perfect human) had to die in our place to conquer sin. Jesus in a sense was substituted for us, and took on our sins, to open the path to redemption. The model says that without that sacrifice, we were hopelessly separated from God.
I personally don’t believe that God is limited in that way. He made us. He knew what would happen. And I think God can reach out to us without having to kill himself to balance out the sin equation.
To me, the power of the cross is that it’s an illustration of true selflessness and the love of God that should be inside all of us. To me it’s merely a reflection of the relationship between God and man, a relationship that has always been there. To me, God wasn’t saying, “I’m doing this so that we won’t be separated anymore.” I think he was saying, “I’m doing this to show you how much I’ve always been, and will always be, with you.”
I’m pretty much the only one in my family who thinks this way, so of course they think I’m in danger of hell.
But I love them no matter what, and I’m not even God. So surely he can love people no matter what as well.
Hi Redlefty
Thanks for getting back to me on this. I think this concept was what the sermon “Justice” by George MacDonald was about. However, the language was pretty difficult to understand. I appreciate your clear explanation.
Julia