The Internet
It has been said that the Internet, with its open exchange of information and ideas, caused the demise of the Soviet Union. When a people, closed off to the outside world, living in unrealized bondage to a system (a system they thought brought them security), are able to escape for a moment (even if just electronically), they might begin to glimpse a freedom to which they have had no access previously, and start to yearn for more. The contrast between "what is", and "what could be", ignites a passion that becomes an unstoppable force. And that force has the power to change the world.
I wonder if the Internet will also become the demise of organized religion?
Ben Franklin said, "Anyone who trades liberty for security deserves neither liberty nor security."
I wonder if the Internet will also become the demise of organized religion?
I HOPE SO!!!!!!!!!!
And I also HOPE Bold Grace will always be a place that helps facilitate that demise.
From a Motel room in Omaha, Nebraska
Peace
Geo
Right On George,
I have seen the Glory of the Coming of The Lord. The internet was raise up for a time as this. A time were doctrine has squeezed the very life from God’s people (all of us). A time where “houses of worship” are made of bricks and wood. A time where the clergy and TV preachers have waved the Bibles and said THIS IS Gods’s Word. Holy Crap!
The New Covenant is the Living Word written in our spirits. “And God will live with them and He shall be their God…..for ever. Never remembering their sins” The Net is like the Spirit……it is everywhere. It is the new reformation, the 95 thesis, the sword. etc. We will look back in a few years and will realize that the Net was the weapon that brought down the virtual church, not the true one. THE TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE…..after you know it.
aka. chaplain roy
HOLY CRAP!
Hey Chappy, as I was reading that goose bumps raised out of my skin and I jumped from my chair and got suddenly charismatic! Rolled on the floor and started barking like a dog! Started laughing and couldn’t stop. Shundai bo bo’ed a few times and got up refreshed from what I had just read! hahaha! Your comment all joking aside did excite my spirit! I can’t wait to get down and see you and Don again!
Peace
Geo
I hope it is the demise of organized religion. I hope we all here are igniting a passion for others to escape and become free.
I’m not as optimistic as you all, about the possibility that any of us will see the demise of organized religion. If it EVER happens, I think it will be many, many years after we’ve all passed from the scene. Remember, organized religion keeps people in bondage & FEAR, and I’ve found fear to be a greater motivator than love in many instances.
The organized church will always hold up HELL as the punishment for not following it’s prescribed formula. HELL sells, and as long as it does, people will stay in organized religion. At least that’s my perspective.
I do think that there are quite a few folks who have taken a step back from organized religion because of knowledge gleaned from the internet, and I think that’s a good thing. But I think the number of people (inside religion) that are beginning to experience freedom aside from organized religion, is not nearly as great as we would like to imagine.
Jesus said he came to set us free. I beleive we are and the only message is to remind people of this great truth. Thankfully the internet is a great tool that has finally put an end to the bully pulpits all across the world. More and more folks are getting an opportunity to allow the glory of their own creation to come to its full fruit.
Good post to read. However, I would tend to agree that although the “demise of oirganized religion” may have begun, and hopefully it has, I think it is at least beyond my years that I have left here on earth (I will be 65 in July) but then again we don’t know how the Lord has this plan worked out. I know we are seeing more and more people set free from its bondage but we have to agree that the vast majority are still held in it’s bondage. But what a joy it would be to see this happen in our lifetime. It would be quite an exciting time. The internet is a great tool and I use it all the time to try and spread the Gospel of freedom, but we must not forget it is also used to spread the message of organized religion as well as being used to spread the Truth of freedom from that very thing.
Geo - I have felt for a number of years now that very thing. I hope we are right.
I saw a sign on a church this Sunday morning that read, “Global warming is a hoax. Hell is not.”
Roy, Jason, you may be right. It might take quite a while….
Have you guys seen the statistics for church attendance over the past 30 years in the U.S.? I’d have a hard time making the case that the demise didn’t begin quite a while ago!
I think it may be. Obviously it will talk awhile to completely dismantle it but free flow of information eventually dismantles systems based on fear. Take a look at the largest Protestant denomination in the US, the Southern Baptist Convention. They are very concerned at the large rate of young people who leave their faith after they leave home, which is as high as 88%. I’m one of them. Mainline denominations are also losing young members. Around Easter in my local paper had an article on religion stating that among young people from 18-29, nearly 1/3 are atheistic/agnostic. It will take time but I think the culture is ripe for a revelation of a God of unconditional love. Many organized churches will either have to change or eventually diminish.
The institutional church could take a lesson from a famous Baptist (John the Baptist) when he said: “He must increase; I must decrease”, or something to that effect.
On a related note - One thing that I’ve been giving a lot of thought to lately is this: How in the world do you go about explaining to someone who seems to be content with organized religion (or anyone really), that God really is a God of UNCONDITIONAL love? Seriously, HOW? I want to spread this good news, but I have no clue how to start a conversation about it.
Any thoughts on this?
Jason
I have three boys, ages 23-35, all graduates of a Southern Baptist Christian School, that was part of a SBC charismatic church. None of them or either of their parents attend any SBC church anymore. Only one attends church at all on a regular basis.
I guess my freedom from organized religion has “infected” my family. We all are delightfully happy and guilt free. We are close to God, see miracles and minister to others. The internet has been a big part of our escape.
Gosh, so many good comments! Thanks! I’d love to address everyone individually, but don’t have time at the moment.
Jason, I’m not sure it’s really important to share the good news, unless someone really desires to hear it. They might not state it in those terms, but you’ll pick up on the clues, subtle as they may be.
For me, I’ve always liked to ask people questions. Like…
Do you think God is real?
What do you think God thinks of you?
Why do you think that?
Do you feel like you’ve made “peace” with God? No? What if He already made peace with you, but no one has told you yet?
What if God made peace with all of Creation, and everyone is included in that?
What if there is no reason to fear God?
Would that change your life?
Would you live somehow differently?
Well, you get the idea…
Enjoy life, my friends!
Hello All
Im really mystified here. If as you say we are all Perfect, then doesnt that mean that the Pastors who preach the Doctrine of Eternal damnation are perfect also. And if they are perfect, yet we think they need to adopt a more Loving and community message, what prevents them from thinking that we need to change some of our behaviours too. Can anyone clarify that one for me?
Remember if we are all Perfect in the eyes of GOD, it shouldnt matter what we Preach, or does it?
John,
In my opinion, it matters what we preach in the here and now, but not beyond that. Since all of us are living in the here and now, I’d say it makes a big difference.
I guess it’d be like telling someone they should stay away from (fill in the blank). Not because it would hurt their relationship to God, but because of the consequences of their actions in this life.
Sometimes I think it’s all a moot point, though; Doesn’t God have all this sorted out in His perfection, without any assistance on our part?
Jason
Well said Jason.
John, yes they are perfect too. The problem is, they don’t know it. And because they don’t know it, they believe they are condemned if they don’t believe the right thing, the right way, and in the right place. And to make matters worse, they go around scaring the crap out of people, placing them captive in their little kingdoms, and making them pay for the honor of doing so. I have no problem with them. They can do whatever they want to do. I just feel sorry for the people who fall for their lies, and have to live with the fear and guilt that comes with it.
As individuals, I can love them honestly. And if they ask me, I will tell them that I disagree with their message of fear and condemnation. That doesn’t mean we can’t be friends, although I doubt that they would find me acceptable. They need to protect their “beliefs” at all costs, lest they be led astray, and into the fiery pit. They live in fear, and my hope is to lead them into real peace… to help them realize their perfection, so they won’t have to torment themselves and those who follow them.
Bruce
My wife had a good question this morning. If we are all perfect, does that mean we are all right in our beliefs?
John T. Wrote:
If we are all perfect, does that mean we are all right in our beliefs?
geo here:
John what this question shows is that you are still eating from that same tree that Adam and Eve ate from. The Tree of The Knowledge of Good & Evil. My heart felt plea is quit eating from that DAMNED TREE! God never intended man to know good from evil. It was eating from the tree that caused all of mans problems in the first place and today eating from that same tree is what causes the majority of suffering and disputes in the world today. I know you may not understand what I am saying and it is not something someone can teach you nor explain to you nor can you learn it in a book, but when you get it you will know. I know to you it does not make sense when I say I no longer try to improve myself by being a better person. It just happens that I am becoming a better and better human not by my striving or keeping the score that I used to do this or that and now I don’t do those things anymore. It seems from a previous comment that you judge yourself a better person because you no longer do this or that and others are judged by you because they still do those things. My improvement as a member of the human race is happening because I know from where I came and to where I will go when this realm of experience is over. It just happens! I understand it hurts you when someone says all of your being a good boy does not count for anything! The first time I became aware of that truth I fought it for over a year! You see I used to look at myself in the same you you still currently look at yourself and others when you said in a comment: Hello I’m John T. I —– too much and ——- too much and —— too much etc………. I used to do the very same thing to myself John. And you know what? Underneath all of my trying to be “better” I knew that I was not! And deep in your soul John you know the same thing weather you are conscious of it or not. John I know the pain of coming to the end of your personal self-righteousness. And I also know how it is for awhile is a place of darkness and hopelessness. But when you become aware of “it” then those thing you struggle with in your personal life will begin to be less and less of a struggle until one day they are no longer a part of your daily life or thought. So what is “IT” that is something again I nor anyone human can teach you nor can you read it in a book. It is not a formula nor a life improvement course that can be taken. “IT” just IS! My hope is that one day you would discover “IT” when you do all of your trying to be better will cease and you will know that what you have been striving for your whole life you ALREADY ARE!
John, we here at Bold Grace have not nor will we ever reject you you have rejected yourself and that has caused you to feel rejected by others. Peace and Grace in your quest.
Peace
Geo
Hi Geo
The way God made my brain, things have to be relatively Logical to me. So if possible I will try to make it as logical as I can. I know Ignorance is bliss, but Im hoping youre not suggesting I stay Ignorant.
Ok, Im going to try to clarify my understanding or lack thereof once again.
I think from now on instead of the word “judgement” I will replace it with the word “assess”. Here goes.
I am a massage therapist and lets pretend that you have decided that you need my help with some physical issue you are having. You come to my clinic for some treatment and during the course of the treatment you make an assessment that what I am doing is hurting you. I then say to you, its ok, Im perfect and God loves me, and I continue the treatment. Again you say to me that it is hurting and could I please stop. I then say to you again its ok, I love you and Im perfect and God loves me. And so if my behaviour is hurting you, is it then ok for you to make the assessment that what I am doing to you is Hurtful and not very loving?
I know this scenario is an exaggeration, but I ask you do we not make assessments everyday on behaviours that we do and what other people do to us? These assessments (judgements) are made in hopes the hurtfull behaviour can be modified so that we can all live in a more loving community.
Now I know you guys here at Bold Grace say you do not make assessments of people, but the truth of the matter is, that is exactly what you do with people of the traditional church. Now I know you word it by saying you are not in agreement with the organization and not the people in it, but the truth of the matter is the People are the organization. Just as the Bold Grace members are the people of this organization.
Now here me again, I KNOW we are ok with GOD……..I am not talking about our overall Connection to the source. I am talking about our behaviours that hurt each other and ourselves. And so, how do we as a Community address these concerns and find Loving, Productive ways of pointing them out without condemnation?
My Question is How do we do that?
John,
Go outside right now wherever you are and look at the sky. Then look at the first live non human thing you see, a bird, a dog, a cat, a horse, a worm crawling on the ground, a flower, feel the sun,rain or wind on your skin. Those things have the “IT” factor. And after you have contemplated them long enough you also will have “it” And you my searching friend will have the answer to your question, “How do we do that?”
Peace
Geo
John, I don’t see it as judgmental, or condemning. I see as observing a condition that the holder probably isn’t aware of.
“John, do you realize you’re standing in the middle of an Interstate Highway? Just thought I’d let you know.”
“John, I’m not sure your aware of it, but you are wearing a winter coat on a 95 degree day. Was that your intention?”
“John, I see that you participate in organized religion. Do you think by doing that you might be trading your “freedom in Christ” for the seeming security of the institution? It’s OK if you don’t, I just thought I’d check.”
The thing is, there are many people out there who desire something more meaningful than organized religion offers, and are looking for answers. They feel all alone and desperate for some means to break away from their addiction to religion that holds them captive. They want to move toward a more fulfilling spirituality, but they are too fearful to break their bonds (if they truly recognized them as bonds). They crave the deeper connection with the Source of their spirit, but don’t know how to move into it. They’ve tried the “church thing” for a long time, now frustrated and hungry, they come to places like this for direction and inspiration.
Sometimes, we speak aggressively about the harm organized religion can do to a person because we want to fuel that person’s passion to break away. We hope to encourage them into the wilderness so that they can begin to detoxify from the harsh indoctrination they’ve received by the religious leaders. And most times, the only way to begin that process is to muster up the bravery to step away, and wander through the wilderness. And it is there that they will cross paths with fellow sojourners… seekers of the Creator… looking for meaning in their lives.
I remember an song with a line… something like… “another chain will set you free!” It seems like that was the mantra of the churches I belonged to. Give us a deeper commitment, and you will honor God by it. Give us more money, so God will be blessed. Let’s put more into our worship times, and God wil be pleased. More, more, more… Give more, and you will finally find the peace you seek. If you don’t have peace, it just means you haven’t given, done, said enough yet. Keep going, keep striving, keep struggling… God will reward you for it!
Geo
Youre right I get it now. Act like an animal and I will find my connection to “IT”.
Thanks for your time and wisdom on life.
John,
The anger, rage & hostility you said you had under control is showing. And thank you for being your true self by letting it show in your last comment. The very fact that you came to that conclusion John shows your lack of understanding about what was said to you. Keep searching John. You will get it.
Peace
Geo
Geo
Ive never said I have everything totally under control. In fact I have stated quite the contrary to you through email on numerous occasions. Right now I disappointed and slightly frustrated that no one at Bold Grace will actually answer my questions about accountability or consequence. All I got from you was your “IT” factor. Curiously it reminded me very much of the Traditional Church person who would say, “Dont worry JESUS is the way.” I like the fact that you guys so much want to talk about Love and forgiveness and God will never forsake us. In fact that is one reason why my wife and I drove 10hrs to come and see you. One thing I have found in life though is, “Love is not a feeling but an action.”
You guys talk a good game for sure.
John, there IS accountability and consequence… but only in this lifetime… and not from God.
If we hurt people, they will distance themselves from us. If we are unloving toward people, they will likely reciprocate. Our negative actions will, most likely, come back to us in some form of pain. This is nature. This is the law of “life on earth”.
And on the flip side, the good we do will, most likely, return to us in the form of people who want to be in our lives in a positive way. If we comfort people, they will usually comfort us in return. And if we give the cashier $.50, they will give us a candy bar. Again, the law of “life on earth”.
But, whether we shine at fulfilling the “law on earth”, or fail miserably, it doesn’t change the way God sees us… it doesn’t change our eternal destiny. It just means we learned the things we needed to learn during our stay here. It all goes toward good… it all puts us closer to our destiny.
I’ve seen people agonize over “doing good”, fearful that not doing so will negatively affect their eternal outcome. They fool themselves into believing they have accomplished peace with God because of their actions. That works for a lot of people… right up to the point where a moment of reality sets in and they see themselves for what they really are. Frustration sets in. Anger sets in. Hopelessness sets in. They have bought into the lie that our eternal destiny is based on our actions. They see themselves as “sinners” working to overcome their sin nature in order to satisfy an angry God. They struggle and strive to do everything right, and end up bitter, and fearful.
I’m not saying there is no value to “doing things right”, but it is terribly wrong to based our self-image on how well we do. If we see ourselves as “perfect” in God’s eyes, and understand that we cannot fail him, no matter what… we transcend our minds into a new nature - one of contentment, satisfaction, and peace. If we continue to see ourselves as unworthy challengers in the “God-monster’s” plan of winning and losing, we will always be frustrated, angry and bitter.
That’s all we’re talking about here. Learning to see ourselves as God sees us - perfect and holy. We’re talking about shedding the bonds of angry teachings that require you to measure up to “”God’s” impossible expectations. That’s what dislike about organized religion. That’s what we desire to set people free from.
It was a delight to have met you and Denise. We’re so glad you made the effort and incurred the expense to come. We hope to answer your questions to the best of our ability, but please remember, we’re just a bunch of knuckleheads who stumbled onto a life-changing revelation and want to share it with others. We don’t have it all sorted out. We don’t have all the answers. Some of the ideas we have don’t really translate well to written words, and are even very difficult to speak at times. Ideas from the Godly realm sometimes don’t have counterparts in the earthly, so it is difficult to explain them. But, there is a profound peace experienced between us. It’s likely something more experienced than explained. We have been connected with a bond that exceeds human understanding… and that’s what compels us to share, and that’s what motivates us to see others come to that place.
But, it all starts with the knowledge of God’s perfect, relentless love for us, and His complete and undying passion for the world He created. Latch onto that, and the world becomes a better place… the air smells sweeter… the water seems clearer… and the sun shines brighter!
Bruce,
I am so glad you wrote that last comment. You have put into words as well as it can be put what we are about at Boldgrace.com. Thanks for sharing your heart.
JOHN T.
I would like to just say one thing to you and anyone else with questions. When it comes to questions about my spirituality, God’s love or how I affect others all of my questions were not and are not answered by someone else. They were and are answered by me because of my own experiences, my own consequences, my own conscience, and my truths. Noone else can do anthing for me other than support me if they choose and I them through our quests for our own anwers. The last thing I need or anyone else needs is “assessed” by others.
My good friend just sent me this wonderful quote:
Each thing in its way, when true to its own character, is equally beautiful.
—Edward Abbey
Mindy
therein lies my issue.One of individuality.When we truly are loving and being loved we would not take issue if someone points out that are actions are hurtful to ourselves and others. If we are to be a community, then that means we are supposed to join in each others lives. And if someone is doing harm, how do we as a community(in a loving way) inform them of that. I see what your issue is because all I keep hearing is that if anyone Assesses or judges your behaviour, it is tantamount to Condemnation of you. Why does it have to be so black and white. Why cant someone who Loves you point out youre being hurtful? Are you that afraid of growth? I havnt once said it was about answering your questions. I have clearly stated on numerous occasions my questions were about Community and how we can make it more loving.
I will tell you something Mindy. Whatever you do or have done, remember I have 10yrs on you. So I dont need to point the finger very far when I describe behaviours that are hurtful. I just need to look in the mirror in the morning. GOD loves me that im sure, but GOD also wants me to be more like the perfect creature he made, and I know my community will help me. So I welcome their assessments of me, because I know Im alright with GOD.
“Community”:
a group of people living in a particular local area; “the team is drawn from all parts of the community”
a group of people having ethnic or cultural or religious characteristics in common; “the Christian community of the apostolic age”; “he was well known throughout the Catholic community”
common ownership; “they shared a community of possessions”
a group of nations having common interests; “they hoped to join the NATO community”
profession: the body of people in a learned occupation; “the news spread rapidly through the medical community”
agreement as to goals; “the preachers and the bootleggers found they had a community of interests”
residential district: a district where people live; occupied primarily by private residences
(ecology) a group of interdependent organisms inhabiting the same region and interacting with each other
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
For me John my life isn’t about community. I don’t want to condemn you or assess you. I know I am alright with God and it isn’t my place to assess you. I look in the mirror each morning and I see me. God loves me and that I am sure of. Even he doesn’t assess me so why would I want to assess anyone else.
This world is filled with soo many different “communities” or organizations that I don’t always need to be a part of or worry about. If you want to be a part of a community that assess others then so be it. It is your life.
You ask, “Why cant someone who Loves you point out your being hurtful?” “Are you that afraid of growth?” John, the beauty of all of this is that you can do whatever you want and I am sure after having met you that you will sincerely think you are pointing things out in a kind way. If I am hurting you then either toughen up and let it go or stay clear of the ones that are hurting you because ultimately it is just your perspective on good and bad. I just know my relationship with God has nothing to do with your assessments and that is what is important to me to understand and I wish for everyone to understand that.
John,
You grow your way and I will grow mine. LOL, you have to admit that was kind of funny
Love,
Mindy
You’re right I get it now. Act like an animal and I will find my connection to “IT”.
Thanks for your time and wisdom on life.
They most likely said the same thing to Jesus when he told them: Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin. And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
And they most likely said what you said, “Thanks for your time and wisdom on life” when he told them this:
Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
Mock all you want John. We still love and accept you.
John wrote:
If we are to be a community
John could you please define what makes a community? Could you tell us what rules, in your mind, hold and keep a community together?
John Wrote:
Why cant someone who Loves you point out you’re being hurtful?
John, Who said that? And in what context?
John Wrote:
Are you that afraid of growth?
John, What is your definition of Growth? And does growth in other people have to be by your definition in order to be considered growth by you?
John Wrote:
I have clearly stated on numerous occasions my questions were about Community and how we can make it more loving.
John, All of your talk of community sure sounds like “christianeese” for the “right kind of church” If anyone wants to making anything more loving just look in the mirror as you said.
John wrote:
GOD loves me that i’m sure, but GOD also wants me to be more like the perfect creature he made
John, therein lies the whole issue. It is from the knowledge that we are ALREADY perfect that we can begin to see all of the things you talk about come to fruition in our lives. Once again you are looking at things as right and wrong. Eating from the Tree of The Knowledge of Good & Evil. As long as a human eats from that tree then death and destruction will be the results. Again you can write all of the mocking provocative things you want about us here at Bold Grace and it will not change the truth that you are looking outside of yourself for what is truly already inside of you. John you know the answers to all of those questions you are asking. And as long as you continue to deny that, those answers will never come to the surface of your thought process. I know you want as the most of the world wants a “how to” manual. Well the Good News is you already have it inside of you> You are Righteous, Perfect and Holy John. And it again is from that repeated knowledge that all of your community question will be answered. “How To” Religion is what Jesus came to destroy John.
Again when you wrote: GOD also wants me to be more like the perfect creature he made
John, do you believe what Jesus said when He said, “I am in them and they are in Me?”
If so how can you be more perfect that Jesus the Savior of the world!?
You are in him John, He is in you John. He is in all of the human race John. The fact that at this time you deny this does not make it not true. All it does is make it of no effect to and for you.
The Apostle Paul asked the Galatians this question:
Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
So I welcome their assessments of me
Here is mine if it matters John: You are Righteous. You Are Holy. You are PERFECT!
Peace
Geo
Geo
Heres some news for you. I dont believe Jesus is or was God. I dont believe he is my Saviour. I do believe Jesus to probably have been an exremley enlightened Human being. Just like you or I could or will become. Now with that said I do believe my Creator cuts me some Slack(grace). I dont think he needed to pretend to be tortured on a cross, but I do believe for Jesus it hurt like Hell. I also believe that my creator has all kinds of things in store for me. Happily ever after in Heaven, I highly doubt it. I hope youre not too surprised when you find out what you do in this life has negative effects, and maybe a little longer lasting than your physical body. As far as mocking you. I guess that in itself is a Judgement call of me on your part. Whether you are right or not is another matter. Hey I guess I should just accept what the members of BOLD GRACE have told me. “John we are just not on the same page as you.” Hmmmm I wonder if thats because you Judged my writings that maybe pointed out some differences in our belief systems.
I think you Geo, may be closer to everyone else than you think, your Self righteouness reeks to high heaven
Thank You John.
Grace & Peace to You
Geo