God Is My Teacher!
The following verses tell us that God has taken complete responsibility for what we need to learn while on this earth. Maybe that’s why He tells us to quit judging each other.
Heb 8:10-13 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." By calling this covenant "new," he has made the first one obsolete; and what is obsolete and aging will soon disappear.Heb 10:16-18 "This is the covenant I will make with them after that time, says the Lord. I will put my laws in their hearts, and I will write them on their minds." Then he adds: "Their sins and lawless acts I will remember no more." And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin.1 John 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.1 Thess 4:9 But as touching brotherly love ye need not that I write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another.Matt 7:1-4 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?1 Cor 4:3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
Isn’t it a peaceful feeling that we do not have to rely on anyone to teach us what is most important?
And isn’t it a peaceful feeling to know it is not my job to judge others?
Wow, if the church quit teaching and judging, what would be left? I guess they didn’t get that memo from God.
Cliff that was awesome I remember while in church reading and rereading that and thinking then why?
You are so right on. Why do we constantly worry about anything or anyone judging us we are all here learning. I may not totally understand all the things that happen to me in this life but they are for my learning.
The hard lesson to learn is to stop trying and just live and let God teach us in His way and to let others live with out judging them. It;s been ingrained to us to judge and it’s so amazes me how no matter what it still tries to pop it’s head as long as religion keeps teaching that I guess it will always be but thank God eyes are opening to the truth.
Great Post
Jennifer
Cliff
Just curious, if someone were to rape your grandaughter would you not judge them, or would you say the are righteous, holy and perfect?
If he is not, then no one is. No one…
There are always earthly consequences to our actions. But, God’s grace falls equally on all. Either all are perfected in God’s eyes, or no one is. Doing harm against individuals, or societies, will inevitably cause pain… to others, and to ourselves. This is the law of planet earth. What goes around, comes around. Life’s lessons will be learned. Some will learn faster and better than others, but all will learn, one way or another. We can learn painfully, or painlessly. The choice is ours. But, this is completely separate from our standing with God. The problem with religion is that it teaches that there are some who God accepts and loves, and those who He does not. And every religion draws the line of what is acceptable, and what is not, at different points. But all religions try to base God’s view of us based on the “law of the earth”. And that won’t work, because according to the law, we ARE ALL GUILTY~! People say that if you believe in Jesus, your guilt is covered and you are seen by God as blameless. But the problem is, what is it you need to believe about Jesus for that formula to work? And furthermore, what must we do, exactly, to fall under that covering? And if we figure out what we must do, how important is it that it be done correctly, fully, completely, and thoroughly enough? Where is the line?
You see, what religion boils down to, is that our standing with God is completely up to us! If we are so confident in ourselves, and our ability to please God… or confident in the ability of the church to correctly lead us into relationship with God in a way that will give us confidence. But you know what? I have lost confidence in myself, and lost confidence in the church, to gain any kind of right-standing with God! If there is to be any “righteousness”, it can only come from Him, and from Him exclusively! I can’t trust myself. I can’t trust the church. I can’t trust any other person… not even Cliff, Geo, and Steve to lead me into perfect relationship with God. NO ONE!
If God’s grace is sufficient, then it can only be sufficient for all… equally. If it is not, we are right back where we started. Right back to where Jesus was when He said “no man can please God.” The Jews tried, and they’re still trying. And the current church is no different. They only package it a little differently, and call it “Christianity”. But it is the same thing… there are us “chosen people” and there are all the others… the lost ones… the ones who need “saved”. They require compliance, conformity, and obedience… slight at first, then increasing as you move toward “perfection”. The problem is, no matter how close we come to that level, we can never actually attain it. Thus, frustration, hopelessness, and depression set in as reality reveals the fallicy, and we begin to understand that we simply cannot do it.
It must be done for us. It must be given to us. It must be.
————
Has anyone listened to the short audio clip in the side bar under the heading “Listen to This”?
In just a few minutes time, Mike Williams explains this concept very well.
John, I was thinking about something you said and can’t seem to get past it. It was something like, “GOD loves me that i’m sure, but GOD also wants me to be more like the perfect creature he made.” Let me ask you, John, if that’s what God “wants” (expects, requires, desires), what happens if we don’t attain becoming the “perfect creature”? If we can’t, how close is close enough? At what point do we cross the threshold into fulfilling God’s “wants”, and at what point do we fall short? At what point can we stop worrying about it? At what point can we feel assured that we have hit the mark? At what point do we no longer need to agonize over it? At what point are we “safe”? And what if we reach the point, but find out the point moved? What if it is a carrot on a stick and always moves just ahead of us? This is the problem with organized religion. They tell you that the “point” is out there, somewhere, but secretly never want you to reach that point, because it would put them out of business. If you have no worries about your relationship with God, the religious leaders (scholars) have not power over you. They can no longer control you and manipulate you. They would no longer be needed. They would disappear.
John T,
I think Bruce answered your question quite well.
Great comment Bruce.
When Adam sinned in the garden was start of man judging himself and others and Jesus end all judgment at the cross John 12;31.
I believe that God’s love and mercy is the greatest thing in the universe and there is nothing that can truly stop it. They tried to at the cross but it could not be stopped.
Just think if the church would preach and teach this truth what a different world this would be.
Love Dan
Amen Dan.
Cliff- I think you know me pretty well and that I am not contentious. I have a question that I really desire to know your answer. The first verse you quote says in part:
“This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel….”
My question is how this verse applies to us. I have a feeling it may be tied to verses that include us (Gentiles), to which Paul brought the good news.
The reason I raise this question is that it is well known that Jesus said in Matthew that he had only come to the house of Israel.
I can see how an person outside Christianity could view the contents of this verse as applying to Israel only.
Thanks for your response. Love ya bro.
Don R, I believe the following scriptures speak for themselves.
Heb 10:9-10
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
ONCE FOR ALL!
Heb 7:25
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
WE ALL COME UNTO GOD BY HIM!
John 12:32
32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself.”
ALL MEN WERE DRAWN INTO HIM.
Matt 3:9
9 And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham.
GOD DOES NOT NEED TO SEE OUR BIRTH RIGHT TO
CONSIDER US AS THE SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.
Luke 22:16
20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.
DID HE ONLY POUR OUT HIS BLOOD FOR THE JEWS?
1 Cor 11:25
25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.”
THE CORITHIAN CHURCH WAS FULL OF GENTILES.
2 Cor 3:3-10
3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God.
5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God.
6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant- — not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was,
8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious?
9 If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness!
10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory.
THE OLD COVENANT DEALT WITH FLESHLY ISRAEL,
THE NEW COVENANT DEALS WITH THE HEART OF MAN.
Heb 10:14
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
I JUST THREW THIS VERSE IN CAUSE I LIKE IT.
Conclusion: There is only ONE New Covenant and to think the verses you gave me do not include us all would mean the Gentiles would have to be under some other covenant.
1 Tim 4:9-10
9 This is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance 10(and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men , and especially of those who believe.
Don R…..I hope this answers your question. There are many more verses that I am sure you are aware of that talk about Jesus including ALL and I would have to believe that means we are ALL under one covenant with God.
Hi Bruce
Thanks for taking some time and trying to answer my question. I am still curious whether or not Cliff would judge the rapist though. Now as far as religion and its leaders, I have this to say. I am not nor will I ever be religious. I actually believe that the biggest problem with Christianity as it is taught in the Traditional Church model is not that they believe in the concept of hell, its that they believe we are all doomed by something some guy named Adam did. The most dysfunctional thing in my mind is to actually believe you were born bad. And not only because of what you do yourself, but because of what some fictional character did 6000 yrs. ago. Now think about how much damage that has caused to the Human psyche.
I do believe in a creator and I believe we are here to learn some things about ourselves as spiritual entities, through the experience of being physical beings. In my mind its kind of like playing a game and you slowly develop your skills through time and experience. Now as it is with learning anything new you go through growing pains. Also as it is with any kind of game you have people who try to cut corners(cheat) and others who do not. You have some players who play more efficiently than others. Kind of like you “reap what you sow” or “what goes around comes around”. In other words there are laws that press on us in this life and will effect our outcomes. I dont believe at all that there is some divine entity that will torture me or punish me for any actions that I do, but I do believe it created a system where I will definately have consequence for what I do. Both good and bad. Now here is the interesting part of what I believe. Kind of like a game with periods or quarters, this part of my life(the physical) is just a portion of my overall game. In other words I dont think my learning or consequences will end when my physical body dies. That is why I believe it is important what we do to ourselves and other people. Not because I am going to be tortured or punished but because of the consequence of my actions. I believe the Bible and other books have outstanding ideas in them that will help us play the game. The problem is that there are many other aspects in the books that will totally mess you up. The key is finding what works and what doesnt. That in itself is a major challenge. Now about this Jesus guy………………..Wow I think I need some more time before I tackle that one for you.
Cliff- Thanks for your response. Since first coming to the realization of the “real” good news about “ALL” of us, I have had no doubts as to it’s veracity. My questions were more for people without a strong “Christian” background.
John T
The only thing i find curious is why someone would ask such a horrific question in such a personal way.
Doug,
I think John T just enjoys mental masterbation of which I gave up years ago. I hope he finds his peace but I am convinced he needs some time in the wilderness of religion and self righteousness before that will happen.
Doug and Cliff
The reason I asked it that way was because each and every time I asked it another way it was never fully answered. And as you can see now, its still not being answered. I guess for some to make their faith work, logic is left at the door. By the way cliff I guess your reference to me enjoying mental masturbation is as close as you will come to admitting that you make judgements of others. Why not just come right out and say yes? As you know “the truth shall set you free.”
John T,
You have ears to hear but you do not listen. Bruce answered your question in full but I guess you didn’t like his answer. I can’t answer it any better.
“Wow, if the church quit teaching and judging, what would be left?”
Hi Cliff! Actually there’s quite a bit more to church than just teaching and judging. But I think you know that already.
Connie,
You are right. There are a lot of great things about church that I miss and if I could truly feel free I would probably go but I don’t think it’s possible for me. For me, I just can’t be a part of any group that rejects those that don’t agree with the doctrine and at this stage in my life I would not be able to be quiet about what I believe, so, I think it’s best for all around that I stay clear.
Love Ya Lots Connie.
Cliff, Do you not see that many of the statements that are made here at Boldgrace are, shall we say, a little judgmental? I think the tendency to be judgmental has little to do with whether we attend church or not. Some of the most judgmental people I know don’t go to church. Just my observation.
I guess my point is that I can’t accuse someone of judging others without myself being judgmental.
All humans are judgmental. We judge everything around us all the time. Should I step out in front of that speeding semi-truck? My judgment says, “no, I shouldn’t”. Should I listen to a preacher twisting and warping the perfect love of God into a message of fear inducing guilt and shame? “No, I shouldn’t”. Should I warn others that the religious belief system they have adopted is poisoning their minds, enslaving them to their “leaders”, and robbing them of the incredible life God intended for them from the beginning? My judgment say “yes, yes I should”.
Jesus questioned the popular thinking of the day, and challenged others to see things differently. He suggested that they change their minds about God. He warned them of the dangers of giving themselves over to religious thinking, and the burdens that religion would heap on them.
If attempting to bring others up to a new level of spirituality, and profound peace, and an incredible freedom to live life abundantly is wrong, then I’m sorry… but I can’t stop encouraging others to look higher, and see that there is a sweetness to life that is far beyond their wildest imagination, but right within their grasp!
Connie,
I have never critisized anyone for making judgements. I think Bruce explained that very well. I have condemned organizations that make decisions that some people are acceptable to God and others are not. I believe with all my heart that every single human being is loved perfectly by God at all times from their first breath to their last. Even the organizations that I judge I still believe that every person in them is just as acceptable to God as I am. Do you think these organizations feel the same way about me? I think not.
Cliff
Definition…..ORGANIZATION..any organized group, as a club.
You are definately Judging people because the head of the Organization is a Person. Your cousin is right.
Bruce
So should I judge my Brother when hes doing too many drugs? And because I love him should I warn him? And if I do am I a Judgemental person? By the way my brother is dead from an Overdose………….I wish I judged his behaviour quicker.
Hey John T.?? Why would you ask such a question? I mean feel free to be inquisitive, but why ask such a question and then pretty much demand a personal answer? Why do you need to know how my Dad responds to rape. You do know my Dad isn’t God or his son, right?
Bruce said it best…”All humans are judgmental.” Absolutley YES we are judgemental. What a boring world it would be if we didn’t get emotional or personal about the things that go on in our lives. I don’t think God expected me to walk around and thank him for the man who raped me? I was mad about it. Hell, I still am. It has affected soo much of my life, but God is the one who loves that man for me. I wake up screaming in the middle of the night because I am dreaming of every detail, but that is just a small part of my story. I have no idea what that man’s story is. Only God knows, so I will let him worry about it and I will move on.
By the way John T… I am sure my Dad was sad for me. I am sure my Dad was devistated and filled with anger, but John that is all a part of being human and as humans it is important to move on and let God love those who hurt us. I don’t know if I will ever love that man who raped me, but I know God does.
Mindy
Pain, we all know it well. My, how my original question has morphed into something so personal, when all I was trying to point out is that maybe our actions as Humans have consequences and maybe as a Community we should be able to find a way to point these things out. Mindy let me ask you something, if we are supposed to be a loving Community dont you think that we should make some judgements of what is Good and Bad?
John T.,
Your judgements are painful, but they are yours and not mine. I can’t live life by what you think. I can only make decisions for myself and not for others. It isn’t my place to decide what is right or wrong for you.
I have tattoos. Some people think that is bad. They think that I am hurting myself by getting them. Some people think that the tattoos are pieces of art? I dated a beautiful black man and some people thought that was wrong and thought that I was making my life more difficult by dating him. Some people think I am too fat and feel that I am slowly killing myself. Some people think that I should not smoke because they think I am killing myself. What I think is the only thing that matters. In the end it is me and God…not me and you or me and my daughter…it is me and God.
You obviously need community so let me ask you this? Why can’t you have a loving community without judgements of each other? Is the community not capable of love without judgements? Can that community survive without judgements?
I can only grow by what my own heart teaches me and not by your judgements of my life and what you think is good and bad. My life is different then yours. We can certainly share just as we are now and You and I can only choose to support each other when our hearts reveal our own personal truths.
Consequences…I meant to say also that yes, you and I will suffer the consequences of our actions, but I will suffer mine and you will suffer yours. Hopefully we will both learn in our own way about them. They are consequences and they are tough to go through so why do I need anyone else pointing that out? That just causes more pain?
You obviously need community so let me ask you this? Why can’t you have a loving community without judgements of each other? Is the community not capable of love without judgements? Can that community survive without judgements?
The reason I think we need to make Judgements is precisely because people rape, people abuse, people hurt each other and people hurt themselves and cry for help. If we are going to live together, how do we find a way to make Judgements, not for condemning, but for showing ourselves and others that our actions can potentially hurt each other? Why cant we admit that our hurtful actions arent very loving? Obviously you know pain and I can admit I know it all too well also. If GOD wants us to love each other and be better at community, then how do we find a way to address these concerns? Again Im not talking about condemning each other. If we were meant to be alone we would have all been born on separate islands, but obviously thats not the case.
I am surprised that there has been little or no comments on the verses in this post. There is a reason the old covenant failed. The old covenant was of the letter. It pointed out good and bad behavior and it gave consequences. The Jewish people did their best to follow this God given law by using community as a means of making sure everyone kept to the letter. They failed utterly. The church has followed the same course, using community as a means of keeping people right before God and making the writings of the “New Testament” their law. They too have failed utterly. To this there can be no dispute. We at Boldgrace have no doctrine for anyone to follow. We have no rules or regulations concerning personal performance or personal belief that will make someone right with God. There is no creed that one has to abide by in order to be accepted. Yes, we do share a message of Bold Grace that says EVERYONE is already OK with God regardless of how they choose to live their life. What my personal position is on any particular issue in this life is completely irrelevant to the message we speak here at Boldgrace. You will notice in this post that I am pointing people to God being their teacher, not me. If they decide they want a human teacher then their are plenty of JOHN T’s out their that are ready and eager to tell them what’s good and bad in their life. That’s a responsibility that I don’t want and don’t believe God intended.
So, John T………You win. Take the responsibility of teaching as many people as you can what is Good and what is Bad. As for me I only have one central message and that is: GOD LOVES US ALL PERFECTLY REGARDLESS OF OUR PERFORMANCE, AND YES JOHN T, HE EVEN LOVES THAT MAN THAT WOULD RAPE MY GRANDDAUGHTER, EVEN IF I WOULDN’T.
The message of Bold Grace has never been about me, but rather about what God thinks of me even when I don’t see it.
Eph 4:2-6
2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.
4 There is one body and one Spirit— just as you were called to one hope when you were called—
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism;
6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
Cliff and Bruce, Thanks for your thoughts on judging. As you indicated, it is necessary to judge if we are to live our lives in an intelligent way. And it seems to be a part of our humanness to extend judgment to others, often wrongly. Kind of like we’re playing God. I think anywhere you have a group of people there is this tendency, and that Jesus calls us out of this way of thinking, as you said.
Cliff, You have included some beautiful scriptures for consideration. As you know, there are also scriptures which encourage us to exhort and admonish each other (I won’t include them here, as I’m not intending for this to become a scene of dueling scriptures).
The key, I think, is to always remember Eph. 4:2-6 and let that guide our behavior.
Hope you all have a good day!
Cliff
I have never ever stated that we need to do things to be right with God, thats just your Old bad experiences coming through and putting them on me. I have only asked how do we make better community and does making judgements or assessments of peoples behaviours help us in that process. If I am wrong for asking that, then sorry you feel that way.
For the BOLD GRACE TEAM
Thanks for all your ideas on Grace and Love. I have learned much from the discussions. I will bow out now, take care.
I sincerely enjoy everyone quoting the bible. It is a great book to read, but it is just that….a book written by man.
My behavior is guided by my heart and not scripture. I will never again live by that book or any other book.
John, if people would simply love others without trying to change them (read, fix them), community would be better. I’m not saying that we should not care for the welfare of another, but do so in love, not with the agenda of building “a better community” or a better world. Love will do that. And only a love untainted by fear can change lives. Let’s not condemn those who don’t/can’t measure up to our expectations. It’s one thing to encourage someone into a higher place, but it’s another thing to place requirement on them just because we think we should. See the difference? The problem with the written word is that it is so easily misconstrued, and taken offense over. Differences of opinion are just that. They are only as temporary as we are. But, we too easily take it as “rejection”, and typically they are not meant that way. Such is life! A monumental effort at trying to get along. But, what I’ve found in life… and this is just me… is that the less agenda I come into a situation with, the less likely I am to offend. Unfortunately, this website is all about agenda… the agenda of understanding a grace so bold, that it surpasses all understanding. Not an easy thing to convey to someone. Know what I mean? My ideas are based mainly on experience, and I had to experience quite a bit of “stuff” to arrive at this point (where ever this point is), and I can’t expect others to leap to where I am just because I think it’s a better place. That is not fair. But, on occasion, someone is ready to make the leap, and I relish being there for them.
I wish you well, my friend. I hope you get to the place to strive for. I hope you find the perfect peace. I like you, John (and your lovely wife, Denise), and want only the best of life for you both. If I can help you in any way, encourage you in any way, or just be a friend… you can count on me. Our beliefs about God and life are only a very small part of “who we are”, and in the grand scheme of things, only a drop of rain in the wide, deep ocean. You and I are so much more than our ideas, and as a fellow human being containing the same spark of life from the Creator, I salute you and your quest.
Be well, and prosper!
Hi Bold Grace! I’m new here. I was reading through the comments and something jumped out at me, so I thought I’d post about it. Hope thats OK.
JohnT, hope you are still here because it is about something you said:
“Bruce
So should I judge my Brother when hes doing too many drugs? And because I love him should I warn him? And if I do am I a Judgemental person? By the way my brother is dead from an Overdose………….I wish I judged his behaviour quicker.”
I was wondering if you believe that you had the power, contained in your judgment, to prevent your brother from dying by overdose? IOW, does the mere act of making a judgment about another cause them to stop, or change course? I heard the pain in your words, and I know that it must be very hard to deal with his loss.
The reason I ask this question, though, is that with all the judgment that has gone on, and that was recorded in scripture, I can’t really see how it made things better for the world. So we judge something bad or good; does that make us feel as if we’ve done our duty?
Love itself is an action. I wonder if putting the focus on judgment causes separation, even if on a purely subconscious level. This separation would then render our love ineffective because the label of “bad” has detached us from the one who needs our love?
I’m sorry if I’ve repeated something already brought out in this discussion. Some of the longer comments I skimmed through.
Paige
Hi Paige
Unfortunately the idea in which I am trying to speak of has been stuck in the word “judgement”. My idea is not to judge the person bad or good, the idea is to judge whether the action or behaviour is bad or good. Also I was trying to stimulate conversation around the fact that maybe our behaviours are actually hurtful to ourselves and to our fellow Humans. All Im trying to say is how as a community do we become more accountable to each other and how do we learn to Lovingly point out when someone is hurting us. I know with some of my good friends(who by the way are technically Fundamentlist Christians), I can tell them when their full of Sheit and they know I Love them and have their best interest at heart.
“Love is not a feeling, but an action”
John T.
PS. I will never know what could or would have been the difference for my Brother. One thing I do know is many of my behaviours towards him were not very Loving, and Judging him wasnt one of them.
John T,
I think I see what you are trying to point out. I know for me, I tend to have a hard time putting words to this also.
I think that in all honesty, I do “judge” an action or behavior good, or bad. However, it is a personal judgment. What I mean by that is, I make the call that doing something would either be wise, or not wise. From there, I make choices about what I’m going to do/not do. I think this is a common experience for all us humans.
For another (not talking about my children not yet adults), I’m learning that it is just not my place. Someone may be doing something I wouldn’t, but I just can’t know if that is the very thing that God is going to use, or is using, to teach them something they need to learn. Now, if this person were to ask me (for example), “Do you think I should try meth?” I would say, “No.” I would tell them what I know about it, and the dangers it presents to them. Would I use hell as a leverage to hold over them? No. I would ask them how they would find it a loving way to treat their own body, though. I might ask them if they were thinking in the long term about their health and their personal relationships. After that, the decision about what they do is always their own. If they were to “hit a wall”, I would have to seek the Lord for wisdom in how I would best be of use, or help at that point.
What are your thoughts?
Paige
Something I read recently shed some light for me on this idea of “judging.” Basically, to sum it up, the author said that it is best not to set “expectations” for others, as this is often the source of conflict and disappointment. Rather, we should live with a sense of “expectancy”, meaning that we are expecting good, even wonderful things from our friends and loved ones. I have found this to be very helpful to me in dealing with my grown sons. When they were young and still at home, I did expect them to abide by certain rules, like curfews, doing homework, cleaning their rooms, etc., and yes, I “expected” them to go to church with me.
Now that they are adults, I no longer set these expectations for them. They are each living their own lives and I can relax with a delightful sense of “expectancy”, even “wonder”, waiting to see what happens next!
Connie,
Thats a great way of summing my thoughts up! Thank you for sharing that. It is so true that our own expectations lead us to produce our own disappointment.
Paige
Ladies
Nice thoughts. My emphasis again was based around community, so lets say Im a raging alcoholic and abusive to my family and friends, should I be left alone to do as I please or would it be in the best interest of everyone involved to find a loving way to show how my actions are hurting the people I supposedly love?
John T,
I guess I’m kind of biased because I’m married to a police officer. His job often involves stepping into those exact situations and enforcing the boundaries that are already set up in our society.
Do you think that by acknowledging the scriptures admonishing me not to judge, that I am saying there are no boundaries?
Paige
Again what Im talking about is the decisions that we make as a community in regards to what and how we judge. And if we are on the same page then it shouldnt be an issue. The key is whether or not people are willing to have their areas challenged or not. I think this scripture says it nicely.
2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.
John T,
You keep saying “again” as if I’m missing your point. Could you show me where, in my posts, you see me going off track?
As far as the decisions we make as a community…I think we need to keep in mind that those decisions are subject to change. I can cut my hair today, and be fairly certain that no one will judge me a temple prostitute, yes?
Paige
What I mean is we have to have consensus, which is obviously hard. Also whether we want to admit it or not we are continually judging or assessing others anyways, so if everyone is on the same page how can it be considered condemning or wrong? I believe the reason why people dont want to have their actions/behaviours looked at is because they feel its a condemnation of their spirit, which isnt necessarily true. I think when we truly click as a community it becomes more about the people rather than the person. But hey, in North America that way of thinking is just not acceptable.
Consensus may give me the allusion of safety and security. Consensus will not ensure that I never experience pain. It will not ensure that I, or others will always toe the line. It will not ensure that I am right, or we are right.
Having the law did not prevent suffering, law breaking, etc. Our laws won’t guarantee lawfulness today either. We do the best we know to do, and learn the hard way when we don’t learn it the easy way.
Bringing this back, I believe I judge. My judgments are for me, and for those God has given me temporary charge over (my kids). I can’t fix the world, I can only fix me with the help of God. All other fixing, I leave to His capable hands.
” lets say Im a raging alcoholic and abusive to my family and friends, should I be left alone to do as I please or would it be in the best interest of everyone involved to find a loving way to show how my actions are hurting the people I supposedly love?” (from John T)
Clearly this would be a time when each person who is affected by the behavior of the alcoholic must set clear boundaries. An intervention could be life-saving for the alcoholic and for those being abused by him or her. This is an example of appropriately judging, imo. However, if you then extend that notion to say that no one should ever drink a beer and condemn anyone who does (as some religious groups do), then you’ve gone beyond what is appropriate for you to judge, I think. A person has a right to make his own decision about whether to drink or not to drink. A person does not have a right to rage and abuse others. My rights end when they start hurting others.
But, I don’t think the original post was intended to mean that there is never a time to confront someone if what he is doing is harmful to others. Jesus certainly didn’t hesitate to do this, as seen in the story where he took whips and ran the money changers out of the temple because they were cheating people out of their money.
There is such a diversity of material in the Bible that I think those verses we prefer to highlight tells us more about ourselves than the Bible.
More along the lines you’ve picked:
Call no one on earth your father for you have one Father who is in heaven. (Close paraphrase, NT - I forget which gospel.)
And they were astounded at his teachings for he spoke as one having authority and not as the scribes. (Ditto…)
Wonderful comments by all. Regardless of where you find youself to be if love is your guiding goal then you have already found your way.
John T…….I do wish you the best and even though we have not seen eye to eye the journey we are both on would encourage us both to keep seeking a better understanding of our eternal connection.
Welcome Paige……I have a grandaughter by that name……Glad to see you visiting. Great comments.
Paul Maurice Martin……Is this your first time here? Very interesting comments. Hope you come back.
John T,
I think I really hear what you are saying, and I agree. For me it’s not about judging who’s in or out of heaven, or who’s OK with God. It’s about learning, through experience, what really works to have a great life and relationships within community.
If there’s a behavior that we know is destructive, both to the individual and the community, I believe we have a responsibility to at least bring it to their attention. And to back up our perspective with evidence. It doesn’t mean we kick them out of the group.
Thanks Redlefty
I see maybe simplicity is the key. You described it so well. Lmao.
John T.
Redlefty, the problem is that different groups carry that “judging” to varying degrees. Some groups have solid, honest relationships in place, and can encourage each other into improved behaviors in a healthy way, but other groups (in my opinion, the vast majority), maintain shallow, even sick, relationships, and so often carry out their judging in a dictatorial, oppressive way - very harmful, and very destructive.
Thing is, to me, all of this falls within the realm of “self-improvement”, even pop-psychology, and really doesn’t have anything to do with relationship with God. Strong, healthy communities of like-minded friends are great, but as soon as we confuse our condition with our acceptability to God, we cause destruction.
Listen to some of the most popular TV preachers… Joel Osteen for instance… they aren’t sharing the good news of the gospel of Christ, they are teach self-improvement and pop-psychology. No problem with that. That’s what a lot of people want… “OK, I know God loves me, but tell me how to make my life better!” Whether it’s Dr. Phil, or Wayne Dyer, Eckhard Tolle, or anyone preaching well being, it’s all about how to ease your pain by changing the way you think, and making better decisions. Nothing wrong with that. But, most churches take it way too far, and start placing requirement and expectation on people to measure up to their burdensome standards… why? So you will be found acceptable to God on the final day.
I say, you ARE acceptable to God, right now. There is nothing you can do to change that positively, or negatively. You just are. Now, if you want to change your life so you’ll have less pain, knock yourself out. Just don’t think it will win you favor with God.
Hmm… I think much of the gospel of Jesus was exactly about making our lives better, so I would see the Joel Osteens of the world following that fairly well. At least better than the fire-and-brimstone style of preaching.
“Whether it’s Dr. Phil, or Wayne Dyer, Eckhard Tolle, or anyone preaching well being, it’s all about how to ease your pain by changing the way you think, and making better decisions”
Again, in my opinion this is what Jesus did as well.
As far as the rest, you already know we agree that these guidelines to better living don’t have an impact on our security with God.
I agree with you somewhat, Redlefty. But I don’t see Jesus’ primary mission on earth as teaching us how to live a more perfect life. I think that was incidental to the main purpose… which was to set people free from the mindset that God was against them.
Still, he had good things to say about living life focused on the spirit instead of the flesh, and about love, and about God. With that I agree. But, if it was a large part of his mission, I think he would have simply dictated the “rules for good living” to some scribes or something. I think his teachings were meant to cause the religious scholars to see him as a revolutionary, a radical, and a heretic. That had to happen to bring about the crucifixion… and at the same time, revealed a whole new level of spirituality to the world… one of peace and grace.
Bruce Man………….you know exactly what redlefty is talking about. Hes not talking Condemning, hes talking LOVE……..and how do we learn it better. My sense is you and many others got so burned by a bunch of religious Shit heads that its coloured the way you see everyone else who actually may genuinely want to help. Call it self improvement if you want, maybe its just peeling the onion to expose the best parts of ourselves. After all, religious or not we’ve all had some shit head put their foot on our throats. I know it all too well myself.
Still, helping others “peel the onion” is risky business. It’s too easy to go overboard and cause greater harm than the pain you’re trying to cure caused. Know what I mean?
It has been said that power corrupts, and I can attest to that. I have been in those positions of power, and I know how easily it can sway you to act in ways you wouldn’t normally act. You feel responsible for people, and for their lives. It is very stressful, and it can make you want to “fix” people, NO MATTER WHAT. It can cause love to fly right out the window in the name of “doing what you HAVE to do”. Whenever people come together on a regular basis, human nature establishes a “pecking order”. Those with the most capabilities bubble up into positions of leadership, to which the people being led give them a certain amount of authority over their lives (read - power). And while power can certainly be used toward good, it so often goes awry.
People who seek some level of security in their lives quickly turn to these leaders and give more and more control. They think that giving their leadership more control will bring them more security. A vicious cycle for sure, but even more hideous is the people who accept that controlling power, and use it against the people who gave it to them. The more they control the people, the more the people seek greater security, and the greater security they desire, the more control they give. Where will it end?
For me, it ended when I simply stepped away. The “communities” I was involved in had become sick… toxic… and few could see it. I tried different communities, but within a short time, the same signs appeared… it was sickness all over again. And most of that sickness came from the teaching leadership offered. They preached FEAR, and then fed on that fear to wield power over their flock. More sickness.
It wasn’t until I found this group of friends at boldgrace that I finally found true community. Even with the great distances between us, there is more love, friendship, compassion, and community than I’ve ever seen in any traditional church. The reason? We have no leaders, and have no need for any leaders. We’re simply a bunch of friends on a journey together, enjoying God’s peace and grace. No agendas, no power struggles, no funds to collect, no building to pay for, no need to build community (because it just “happened”). It’s not to say we’re without our challenges and pains, but they seem to be rare. This is probably the only true community of which I’ve ever been a part.
Peace, friends!
PS - John, I appreciate your zeal for Life, and I appreciate that you’ve got me writing again. It feels good, and I guess I didn’t realize that there was much in me that needed said. Love ya!
Bruce, Cliff, Geo, Steve
One of the things I appreciate in my friends is the ability to tell each other when were full of Sheit, and still maintain the relationship. It doesnt matter whether their right or I am, just the fact that we know where we stand, side by side. Hope youre stilling standing, cause I am.
Bruce
I like your style and passion for life, glad I could be of some assistance whether I knew it or not lol.
My philosophy professor I had last spring semester accurately put it like this “Humans are the judgmental animals”. lol
Everyone has their opinions and people can strongly disagree about many things. What I love about this community is the ability to love even when there is disagreement. I think the reason many judgments end up being so condemning is as a whole organized religion is very dependent on “being right”. I’ve heard sermons and was taught all my life how important it was to get my beliefs not just about God but social, moral, and political issues right in order to please God.
I think we need the freedom to be wrong. Honestly, I doubt any of us will ever get everything right in this life. I believe that knowing that our being right or wrong doesn’t determine our standing with God can help us be more honest about disagreements and willing to listen to each other instead of getting defensive and cutting off contact with someone just b/c they may differ from us. John T., I believe your last post says it quite well.
I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
I never read this before! Did you make it up?
Maybe it should say, 1 Clif 4:3
1 Cor 4:3
3 I care very little if I am judged by you or by any human court; indeed, I do not even judge myself.
Paul really understood how the judgement of man vs the judgement of God has little value. I am learning slowing to be like Paul and as I see myself in his image more and more I find little reason to judge myself or others.
As we become more secure in who we are from God’s perspective, a boldness sets in, and a humiility. A boldness to find others offenseless, and a humility to see others as equals in the perfection of life.