All Or Some?
It was said by one of our commenter’s here on Bold Grace that it is not wise to give the truth of the gospel of grace and peace to those who lack personal control and discipline.
It was said we that need to give them discipline and structure first and then freedom after they learn to control and discipline themselves?
If it is done in this manner then how is this taught in relation to the gospel?
And when is the truth about the freedom of the gospel revealed?
And when it is revealed to them and they understand that they have been lied to from the start how do you explain it to them?
And what do you do if while you are teaching them your discipline and control gospel they find the true gospel of grace & peace?
Do you explain to them that you lied to them for their own good?
Do you tell them that the true message of the cross is only for those who have progressed to a certain point in spiritually?
NO!!!!!
We at Bold Grace are not ashamed of the gospel any longer. We will not teach or agree with those who believe and teach that the message of Bold Grace is only for the more spiritually advanced.
But even in disagreement on this we acknowledge that those who give part of the truth are doing it out of their heartfelt belief that it is the only way. And we applaud them for saying it even if we don’t agree.
Peace
Geo
Hey Geo
Long time no hear. Funny thing about sharing information, the truth is, people only hear it when they are ready. There is an Old Japanese saying that goes.
“Dont teach until youre asked”
” We will not teach or agree with those who believe and teach that the message of Bold Grace is only for the more spiritually advanced.”
That would sound very Gnostic, wouldn’t it Geo, if you guys did that? I personally know that you’re no Gnostic! You wish everyone to have this news.
Hey John! Yeah I am on the road and not much time to do anything other than read comments. That old saying is spot on! Or the way I remember it is this “when the student is ready the teacher will appear”
HEY Don!
You got me on that one bro! I WANT ALL TO KNOW! Sure miss you man! I might be down your way next month working in the Dallas area. If so maybe we can do dinner one night? I sure hope so!
Peace
Geo
Geo: Do you explain to them that you lied to them for their own good?
Or do you tell them that you felt they needed to get their lives straightened out before you told them about all this “freedom in Christ” stuff because you don’t realy believe it has the power to change lives?
Bruce,
I remember when I too could not conceive that telling people what I now believe would effect a change in them. I was scared to death to share Bold Grace with “undisciplined” people. Hell I was scared to share it with ANYONE! I was scared that I would be ridiculed and laughed at by those who I thought at that time were the “learned” in the things of God and the church. But that seed of freedom and peace had been planted and once it is planted NO ONE needs to do anything but watch it grow! And it will grow. The message of Bold Grace is one that will act as a grain of sand does in an oyster. The message of Bold Grace will agitate the self-righteous. It will cause those who believe their good works are what makes them right with God mad and they will look to silence the person bringing the message. But it will be to no avail. Because again once Bold Grace has been planted in a human soul it will work its way to completion! I have seen it over and over over the past 4 years. The process is always the same for those who are steeped in do good get good religious beliefs. It was the same for you and me. It is so wonderful to be able to see others go through it!
And go through it they will once it has been planted in their soul.
Peace
Geo
I guess what I’m saying is that if we don’t believe it, then we cannot effectively share it. But if we do believe it, then we can’t help but share it. Surely though, it’s not something you force down someone’s throat. But it is something you can ease into, realizing that the words you say have the power to shake someone’s belief system down to the roots. Many will receive it with caring thought, but many will lash out at you in an effort to protect their sacred cows (and their own self-righteousness). It can get ugly, but its worth it. And it is beautiful to see a heart set free to enjoy life with God!
I never felt the fullness of the freedom Christ spoke about until I finally gave up organized religion. Jesus said “the truth would set you free and you would be free indeed.” I happen to be on my way to a funeral this morning and I already have a sick feeling in the pit of my stomach about what I know I will hear from the preacher. The sick message of grace and law is forced on people even in the midts of death. When will they tell them the truth????
“When will they tell them the truth?” - Cliff
You already know the answer to that one, Cliff.
This topic got me to thinking about some questions I have in my head. I’ve asked them to a few of the folks here via email, but I’m still not clear on a lot of things as it relates to ALL being righteous in God’s eyes. So, here are a few of my questions, and a few questions I can imagine my religious friends would ask if I shared the gospel with them, as it is shared here at BG:
1) HOW IN THE WORLD would I actually go about telling ANYBODY about the gospel?
2) Surely someone will say, “Where do you get the idea that EVERYBODY is righteous before God? Only believers are righteous!” On that note, I’m having trouble finding verses in the bible that says we’re ALL righteous, without finding an equal number of verses that seem to speak of those who are obviously NOT righteous in God’s sight. The bible gives lists of those who “will not enter into the kingdom of God”. How do I reconcile this?
3) If we ARE ALL righteous before God, when, why and how did we become that way?
4) What was the purpose of Christ dying on the cross, if not as punishment for the sins of you and me?
I have hundreds more questions. These are just a few. I want so much to believe in the good news, as it is shared here, and share it with others……BUT I’M SCARED, & I CAN’T CONVINCE MYSELF IT’S TRUE. Anybody want to help me along?
Jason
“And when it is revealed to them and they understand that they have been lied to from the start how do you explain it to them?” (Geo)
That’s the thing - it’s not a lie. People need structure to develop a paradigm or a meaningful foundation. The example is you can only build a house with what you are given - not with what you think you have. My point all along is people that lack the discipline - do not know what it is that causes them to not have the ability to change…they want to build a house but have few tools and no expertise on how to use them.
I agree, God is not angry with them - but that sentence alone does not change everyone’s life. There is a whole process to be traversed before one can even get to the fulness of realization concerning the impact of that idea. They have to learn the rules before they can see how they were impeded - or what the impediment actually is.
Even then, we are talking about a moral rehabilition here. I think I heard Bruce say something about trading addiction for addiction - where this may very well be the case - I would rather a rapist trade his sexual addiction for an honoring our women addiction. Question is, how do you get there? Well, that takes some sweet time and a way for that person to mentally place the moral idea - and this requires a structure - a foundation - a paradigm.
“Do you tell them that the true message of the cross is only for those who have progressed to a certain point in spiritually?” (Geo)
I’ll ask everyone on this site point blank - did you come to the message of the cross without a level of progression? If it is true you moved from idea to idea until this one made sense - then how come it is problematic for another to do so? Geo called it ‘lying to them’? Yet, I am guessing, it was a progression in most of our faiths that got us to this gracious understanding. If you have been given grace, give grace.
I am also not sure people truly get what I am saying when I talk about people that need the structure first - then can move into the arena of deeper ideals concerning this faith (more freedoms). I am talking about real criminals, not tv show ones, real people with real problems - who are struggling like hell to make ends meet (in their heads) - and when ends don’t meet and they have exasterbated all known avenues - go back to their known solutions (ie: robbing, drug dealing, or what have you). There is no simple answer to those kind of problems - and I can guarantee this much - lack of structure, emotional trauma and lack of trust, and no personal discipline are many of the factors keeping them there. That, my friends, requires answers deeper than a theory on the power of Grace (it requires some type of structure).
I don’t think you are wrong about the aspects of grace per se - but I do think it can be better thought out. It’s okay if you disagree with me on this - I am not sure I am even right - this is not a tested and true idea. However, if we want to find out if I am leading down the right path here - then we need to test it.
Jason
There is a great book called “The inescapble love of God”. Its written by Thomas Talbott. Check it out you may find it answers lots of your questions.
John T.
Jason,
I totally understand your questions and the need for answers, but my question would be why the need to go to the bible for those answers? This is scary. You are right about that, but for me the fear comes from being taught by others what is right and wrong rather then listening to my innerself. The church use to scare the hell right out of me. I was afraid to feel anything. I was afraid to believe in anything until I started to read about the Native American Spirit and then that left me reading about other religions and beliefs. I finally decided that simply loving others as good as I could was taking me on a journey of peace. This journey found me here at BoldGrace. I have learned that religion is a cover up for those who fear God and I accepted that I wasn’t one of those people that feared God and I have begun to trust each moment for what it is. I don’t search for answers anymore. I don’t need them. I just live life trying to learn as much about myself as I can, but on my terms. I do what feels right in my heart and I can’t believe in a God or higher power that would judge others, but not judge me.
I understand where you are at and I wish for you a journey where your heart leads you and not religion.
SVS said: did you come to the message of the cross without a level of progression? If it is true you moved from idea to idea until this one made sense - then how come it is problematic for another to do so?
You could probably call it “progression”, but I think of it as “frustration”.
Just because some had to move from idea to idea, does that mean everyone has to? Looking back on my life, I feel robbed of the abundance of life I could have had, but was hidden from me by those I trusted with my spiritual welfare. They we idiots (uh, let’s say “misinformed” so we can show grace). Not to say I can’t love those idiots. Many of them I still know, and find that they too are moving away from the religious nonsense they held to for so long.
Jason, this is what elders do. They can look back on their life experiences and see how things could have been better. Then they share that understanding with others in hopes that their lives can be better too. What’s wrong with wanting the best for people? To me, that’s what love does.
Maybe your God says “you must learn the hard way”, but mine says “come join me, let’s enjoy life together.”
I really don’t think people need structure and discipline. I think they need love and hope… acceptance and inclusion.
Job 40:2-5 “Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him? Let him who accuses God answer him!” Then Job answered the Lord: “I am unworthy — how can I reply to you? I put my hand over my mouth. I spoke once, but I have no answer — twice, but I will say no more.”
Job 42:1-3 Then Job replied to the Lord: “I know that you can do all things; no plan of yours can be thwarted. [You asked,] ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.
When one studies the Book of Job you walk away with one feeling at the end of the book and that feeling is AWE. We try so hard to make sense of everything in this life but at the end of the day we either stand in AWE of God or we stand in fear of him. I attended a funeral today of a young woman in her forties and I listened to a preacher spend 30 minutes telling this woman’s family and friends how they had no hope unless they put Jesus first in their lives. This man barely mentioned anything about this woman. As I listened I could only hear his self righteousness coming through loud and clear. He spoke of how he had served the Lord all his life and made Jesus first in everything. Oh how the Lord must of been so proud of him. He had all the answers and every answer was filled with fear of HELL if you didn’t listen.
Job said and I agree: NO PLAN OF GOD’S CAN BE THWARTED and it is God’s plan that all men will be saved.
Jason, I have answered those questions many times and if you really want them the answers are there. John T reccommended a very good book, but if you will look in our archives you will find many of these questions have been dealt with over and over. I personally believe that those who really have the questions already have the answers in their own hearts, they just aren’t ready to believe them yet.
Jason, have you listened to any of Mike Williams’ audio teachings? That would be an excellent place to start, and I believe will answer most of your questions. Just click the Gospel Logic link in the lefthand sidebar. There are more in our “audio” page at the top of the blog.
I attended a funeral today of a young woman in her forties and I listened to a preacher spend 30 minutes telling this woman’s family and friends how they had no hope unless they put Jesus first in their lives. This man barely mentioned anything about this woman. As I listened I could only hear his self righteousness coming through loud and clear. He spoke of how he had served the Lord all his life and made Jesus first in everything. Oh how the Lord must of been so proud of him. He had all the answers and every answer was filled with fear of HELL if you didn’t listen.
Sounds almost like my grandfather’s funeral nearly four years ago. (To make it even worse, he was a pastor of a fundamentalist church.) Another minister gave the eulogy, but it turned into a freakin’ sermon about making one’s life right with Christ, else you’d be doomed to hell, with a side order of political/moral rhetoric for good measure (2004 was an election year in the US, after all). There was very little said about my grandfather himself by this man (someone who’d claimed to have known him for quite a few years). Anyhoo, listening to all that made me sick to my stomach. I, pretty much, had to keep myself from bolting out the door or screaming. I didn’t go to the funeral to hear this crap! (Actually, I didn’t want to be there at all; but that’s another story.)
Jason
I would agree with Bruce and Cliff.
If you are truly looking for answers to all of the questions you asked look through our archives and if you go and listen to audio that Bruce suggested you will find the answer to those questions and many, many more. Also I would suggest you listen weekly to Glenn Klein and Mike Williams of The Gospel Revolution here is the link http://www.glennkleinonline.com/
Click on the WEBCAST Icon.
The broadcast is weekly on Wednesdays @ 9:00PM Eastern Time
Or you can click on the WEBCAST Icon and scroll down to The Mike Williams Link click it and archived shows for the past two years are there I think Or just click the link below to go directly to the archived page http://www.glennkleinonline.com/webcast/guests/mwilliams.html
Peace
Geo
“I am also not sure people truly get what I am saying when I talk about people that need the structure first - then can move into the arena of deeper ideals concerning this faith (more freedoms). I am talking about real criminals, not tv show ones, real people with real problems - who are struggling like hell to make ends meet (in their heads) - and when ends don’t meet and they have exasterbated all known avenues - go back to their known solutions (ie: robbing, drug dealing, or what have you). There is no simple answer to those kind of problems - and I can guarantee this much - lack of structure, emotional trauma and lack of trust, and no personal discipline are many of the factors keeping them there. That, my friends, requires answers deeper than a theory on the power of Grace (it requires some type of structure).” (from societyvs)
I get what you are saying. I see it all day long every day in the work I do. It’s tragic.
Bruce
“Looking back on my life, I feel robbed of the abundance of life I could have had, but was hidden from me by those I trusted with my spiritual welfare. They we idiots (uh, let’s say “misinformed” so we can show grace). Not to say I can’t love those idiots.”
Its interesting because I see you as a deeply passionate human, who wants so badly to connect and help others, and then I read your words and see how deeply hurt and angry you still are. The words victim come to mind. Children get taken advantage of, Adults roll over. We may be totally misinformed as youths, but it is our decision to stay misinformed. Unfortunately some stay that way longer than others.
“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
I think when you truly heal and find the Grace and Love of God you wont need to call people idiots anymore.
Well, I guess I’ve been put in my place…
Thanks
John, often outrageous situations call for outrageous language. Besides, “idiots” is not a derogatory term, it is a descriptive term.
Also, John… you grossly underestimate the power of indoctrination. But, as you insinuate, maybe I’m the idiot.
Bruce
Go to youtube and check out a song named “flawed design” by a band named Stabilo…………youll like the lyrics and tune
Bruce
By the way I know Indoctrination very well, I was just indoctrinated into a different world than you were. Some of us then become the abuser rather than the abused. Thank God I didnt stay there.
I think there is a misunderstanding that awakening to bold grace means the end of structure. Paul is the very best example of this type of grace and he said he buffeted his body daily to bring it into subjection. In the book “Self Esteem, A New Reformation” by Robert Schuller he brings out the abundance of studies showing that at the root of all criminal activity is a lack of self esteem.
Now I ask, does the traditional structure taught by the church encourage self esteem? I think not. True self esteem can not come from our ability to perform because we always come up short. True self esteem comes from realizing (awakening) to who we already are. Who we already are is a fact, not something we attain to and sharing this great news with even the most hardened of criminals is their greatest hope.
Rom 1:16-17
6 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Paul says in the Gospel there is revealed the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD, not of man. It is a righteousness that is found only in Christ and man does not add to it in any way. The changing of man’s heart does not come from the outside in, but rather from the inside out. It comes when a person is overwelmed by the realization that they are the perfect image of God and that Jesus came to show us that image that has been there from the beginning.
The church has continued down a path of personl performance (structure) for over two thousand years without success. I say, LET PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH OF WHO THEY ALREADY ARE, and then watch the beautiful transformation that will take place. I believe in the POWER OF THE GOSPEL.
LET PEOPLE KNOW THE TRUTH OF WHO THEY ALREADY ARE, and then watch the beautiful transformation that will take place. I believe in the POWER OF THE GOSPEL!
AMEN Cliff!
Most who call themselves or are identified by the term “christian” believe in a God who only has power to save those who cooperate with Him. That in my estimation is a very low opinion of a supreme being. One who needs human help in order to Redeem is NO REDEEMER AT ALL!
Peace
Geo
If all we need to do is to let people know the truth of who they already are, then why did Paul spend his time admonishing the church (in Romans 6, as well as a number of other places) not to sin so that grace may abound? (I’m not trying to be argumentative, I’m just trying to understand how you fit these scriptures into your theology.)
Connie,
Romans 5:18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.
Read the whole book in context and you will get a different take on what you quote.
Peace
Geo
Also Connie you wrongly assume that all of us here at Bold Grace consider the New Testament writings as “scripture”
Jesus said the “scriptures” were the law, the psalms and the prophets!
If you take the N.T as scripture that is fine but Jesus Himself DID NOT.
In the “Scriptures” that Jesus considered “Scriptures” it says that God would do NOTHING except He reveal it to His Prophets first. Prophets being those in the O.T.
So according to that scripture show us where the prophets said God would give mankind a “chance” to be Redeemed.
Peace
Geo
Amos3:7″For the Lord GOD does nothing
without revealing his secret to his servants the prophets.
Where was this “chance” doctrine that the church teaches today talked about by the prophets of old?
Peace
Geo
Jesus obviously didn’t include NT writings when he spoke of scripture since they hadn’t been written yet. Does this mean that you don’t look to the NT for guidance? If that’s the case, then there’s not much point in our discussing it, is there? We are totally not on the same page, I guess.
“So according to that scripture show us where the prophets said God would give mankind a “chance” to be Redeemed.” (from GEO)
I didn’t say anything like this or mean anything like this in my post. You are reading something into what I said that is just not there.
Geo
If you dont believe the NT is scripture then how or why do you quote Romans, when talking to Connie?
John
Because she quoted it as “scripture”
Connie,
Guidance is one thing and scripture is another
Do you look at the N.T as scripture and God Breathed?
If so that is fine with me but that is not what Jesus nor Paul called scripture
Peace
Geo
Connie
Where the NT agrees with scripture I agree with it. But where it is debate and opinion then no I do not. When Paul told Timothy to bring his cloak and parchments was that God Breathed Scripture? If not then what is the criteria for determining what is and is not scripture?
Peace
Geo
I think I understand what you are saying now, GEO. Thanks for the explanation. While most of Christendom would include the NT when using the term “scripture,” you only consider scripture to include what was around at the time Jesus lived. That being the case, it is pointless to discuss NT passages with you, I guess.
Great post, Geo. If humanity has been set free for freedom’s sake, then God apparently feels that we’re ready to handle the truth. Keep talking grace boldly. Anything less is bondage, and how can that serve anyone’s interests — especially God’s. The problem isn’t that we’re not ready for the free and abundant living that comes from a grace awakening. The problem is that we don’t believe we’re ready. God trusts us, so I think we can too. If not now, when? If not us, who?
Connie,
If you read Romans in context it becomes clear that sin is connected to law keeping and those who were continuing in sin were continuing to keep the law alive.
Rom 7:6-11
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
You can not continue in sin if you understand your true self to be dead to the law. Study the NT carefully and you will see a battle going on between those who were mixing law and grace. Paul fought hard against that making it clear that we can only be saved by grace through the faith of Christ. We were all baptized into Christ on the cross and we were all raised with him on that third day.
Eph 2:4-22
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
“Heb 9:26
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.”
Heb 10:1-10
10 The law is only a shadow of the good things that are coming — not the realities themselves. For this reason it can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship.
2 If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all, and would no longer have felt guilty for their sins.
3 But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins,
4 because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.
5 Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said: “Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but a body you prepared for me;
6 with burnt offerings and sin offerings you were not pleased.
7 Then I said, ‘Here I am — it is written about me in the scroll — I have come to do your will, O God.’”
8 First he said, “Sacrifices and offerings, burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not desire, nor were you pleased with them” (although the law required them to be made).
9 Then he said, “Here I am, I have come to do your will.” He sets aside the first to establish the second.
10 And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
PLEASE READ VERSE 10 ABOVE OVER AND OVER AND KEEP ASKING YOURSELF WHOSE WILL IT IS THAT MAKES US HOLY, AND ALSO THE LAST PART OF THAT VERSE SAYS WHO THAT WILL IS APPLIED TO—-ALL.
The only people who are suffering from the effects of sin are those who still believe they must obey some law to make them righteous. They suffer either by giving up because they feel so inadequate or they suffer every day in doubt and guilt as they constantly try and fail to live up to the demands of what ever law they have put themselves under.
Gal 3:21-26
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
THANK GOD FOR THE FAITH OF JESUS AND THAT JESUS INCLUDES US ALL –VERSE 26.
Connie, and all… my personal opinion is that the NT has great value, but probably no more than many, many writings about the spirituality surrounding the Christ event. I see it as the account (history) of the event, and the reports & commentaries by those close to the event at the time. It is interesting also to look at the debates (disagreements) about what happened and what it means. Just like people disagree now, people disagreed then. It is all very interesting reading, and can even be quite enlightening… even inspiring. But, to revere it, even worship it… is a mindset I can’t leap to.
When we take an honest look at the history of the NT, and the way it’s been changed, manipulated, twisted, and misinterpreted, it would be difficult to call it “God breathed”… at least in it’s present form. Do you realize that the gospels were not penned until after Paul wrote his letters to the churches? And that the authors of the gospels did not know of Paul’s letters, and Paul did not know of the gospels? Think about it.
The first gospel account (Mark) wasn’t written until some 30 years after Christ walked the earth (and the others written some 20 - 30 years after that)? Do you remember an event from 30 years ago well enough to write in detail what happened? How about 60 years ago? And if it was such an important event, why did it take 30 years before someone even thought to write it down? And it is never mentioned that Christ requested that any of the account even be written! Top it off with the fact that, for several of the books included in the bible, it can’t even be determined who the author is!
Another point to consider is the wealth of writings of that time by other authors (not included in the present day bible). Do you realize that the book we call the bible today was assembled by church leaders who picked only the writings that fit their agenda? (And you don’t think you’re being manipulated?) When Constantine took over the church in the 4th century (if you can’t beat them, join them… then, as their leader, insert your agenda as you please), the church decided what fit (and promoted) the direction they wanted to take people, and what didn’t. The writings that didn’t fit their purpose were destroyed (at least, they thought they got them all. Fortunately some survived). This is what you put your hope, and faith, and trust in?
From the viewpoint of organized religion, you would think Jesus said somewhere… “here is your new religion, go write it down, study it, and follow it to the T.” Hmmm, I just don’t think that was the intent of the Christ event. Personally, and you can believe whatever you want, I think the Christ event was exactly what the Prophets of Old said it would be - a revelation of God’s acceptance of His creation… a message from God to His extended family, proclaiming - “I love you!”
Like I mentioned, believe whatever you want about God, but I am convinced that what we believe will set a course for what our lives will become. I think it was Dr. Wayne Dyer who said, “change your thoughts, change your life!” I also believe that when Jesus said “repent”, he was calling us to change our minds about God. Stop thinking that God is angry with you, waiting for you to screw up so He can toss a little wrath your direction, or worse yet, give up on you altogether and rid of you by punching your ticket to hell… and realize that He loves you without condition, expectation, or requirement. Understand that His love for you is complete, and perfect, and nothing (read NOTHING) can ever come between you and Him. NOTHING!
An interesting link to examine the chronology of the bible, as well as all the writings from the early church is…
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/
And here is an interesting look at the authorship of the NT…
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mbible4.html
And another regarding authorship…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Authors_of_the_Bible#New_Testament_2
Bruce
Something just clicked. You dont even believe the bible is the word of God. You just intuitively know that God is Love………….Good for you man.
The church of man has convinced us that we are evil and can’t trust ourselves. But, I think God communicates with each of us in a way that speaks directly to our hearts, and stimulates our minds. Sadly, we won’t listen to our hearts because we don’t understand that God is in us. We think (again, because of church teachings) that God is “out there somewhere” and can only be heard through intermediaries. I think this is why there is so much suffering in the world. We have been told that we are unworthy of connectedness to God unless we strive to be good, hold to a “correct” theology, and obey the mandates of religion. We won’t allow ourselves to realize (awaken to) the idea that we are not only NOT disconnected from God, we are a part of Him!
We have bought a bill of goods, my friends. We have been duped!
Bruce
A man after my own heart. The wife loved it too. Did by chance you check out that song I suggested? I will send you another one via your email.
Haven’t yet, but will in a bit. Thanks!
I tend to think that ‘our hearts’ aren’t the way to go. I tend to agree with the scriptures that our hearts contain all sorts of evil and wickedness.
In Romans we are told that “no one seeks for God, and that “no one is righteous, no not one.” Coupled with the passage in Isaiah that “All our righteous deeds are as filty rags” lets me know that what I really need comes from outside of me.
I believe that is exactly why Jesus instituted the sacraments. He knew that we are all about the self, and that even after Hid death and resurrection, we would attempt to turn the whole thing into a religious project of the self.
Even after Christ gets a hold of us we still have that ‘old Adam’ dogging us until the day we are put into the ground. Romans 7 is a good illustration of that, if you can’t see it in yourself.
Anyway, that’s my 2 cents. Thanks very much!
- Steve Martin
Welcome Steve Martin
I would answer you by asking you to take the “Challenge” that is in our newest post here at Bold Grace. Go and listen to what Mike and Glenn say in that link and then come tell us your thoughts.
Peace
Geo
Steve, you need to believe whatever makes sense to you. I used to believe quite the same as you just described, but I don’t any more. That doesn’t make me right and you wrong, or vice-versa. It only means that it is possible that there are other ideas out there that might make more sense to you if you will open your mind to the possibilities. If you don’t, no biggie. Continue on the path you’re on, and you will be blessed. Take a new path, and you will be blessed… maybe even more.
But, I have to say that I disagree whole-heartedly with the idea that the old Adam is still dogging us. Is the power of the cross that ineffective? Did it only perform part of its job? Its OK if you dont believe that the work of the Christ is that complete, but doing so will free your mind from the fear of the old Adam. It will free you to participate fully in the kingdom of God, and live openly in the grace of Father.
We have a restaurateur here in town who uses this catch-phrase in his commercials… “try it, you gonna like it!”
Try believing, just for a moment, that you are fully righteous before God, and no one, and no thing, can ever, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever come between you and Him. See if it doesn’t change your life. See if it doesn’t alter your thinking about everything you fear. See if it doesn’t translate you into a place of relief, rest, and peace. Just for a moment.
Steve raises some strong points…ones that I was taught to believe. But after some time, I saw that the people teaching me those things wanted me to believe them over what I knew in my heart. “Don’t trust yourself. Trust the preacher/denomination/tradition/etc.”
Interestingly (at least to me), it might be important when looking at those passages to look closely at the context. They’re not simple once-for-all declarations applicable to all people for all time. They’re ensconced in a setting directed toward particular people in a particular situation. A lot of times we recognize this. After all, no one today is making an ark like Noah’s — even though that is in the Bible.
Hebrews 9:14 talks about Christ doing away with our sin consciousness. That’s a liberating idea to be sure.
Warmly,
Kevin
I so agree Kevin. One can truly misunderstand the NT especially if they are ingrained in Law. Those who mix the Law with their grace have a veil that does not allow them to see beyond the traditions of their fathers.
Kevin & Cliff
SO TRUE!
We should have NO CONSCIENCE OF Sin since the Cross.
If there is just ONE have to or must then Grace is not Grace and Law is not Law. Only one rule causes the veil of Moses to fall and Grace is of NO EFFECT! I know this is hard for those who believe we have to have rules but the truth is only the goodness and love of God causes man to change. No amount of discipline will set people free. It in the end leads to death and destruction. Narrow is the way (GRACE) that leads to life. And broad is the way (THE LAW..630+ OF THEM) THAT LEADS TO DESTRUCTION. Living a life of Grace is the hardest thing a person will ever do in this life. But at the same time it is the easiest thing to do!
Peace
Geo
Geo
So so misinformed. Of course you should have conscience of when you do wrong(sin), if not you’d be a sociopath.
John T.
According to the writings of the bible where there is NO LAW there is NO SIN! Now I agree that where there is law wrong can happen. But as far as I believe there are NO LAWS between God and Man any longer therefore there is no SIN! Can we do wrong things? I would imagine so but who’s laws are we applying in order to make something right or wrong?
Your Friend The Sociopath
Geo
Also just to let you know………
I HAVE NO CONSCIENCE OF SIN ANY LONGER!
It is impossible for me to sin.
Peace
Geo
Geo
WOW!
John T.
Sometimes, I think we have great difficulty separating what is flesh and what is spirit. When Jesus described the kingdom of heaven, he talked in terms of goats and sheep, wheat and chaff, etc. I don’t think for a moment that he was referring to good people vs. bad people (like the church teaches), but that each of us has in us the goat (earthly flesh), and sheep (pure, perfect spirit). As we enter the kingdom, the sheep-side of us enters in, and the goat-side of us is cast off.
When thinking about terms like perfection, righteousness, and “no conscience of sin”, we refer to the spirit-side of our being. The flesh displays it’s own life while we are in the physical, but it is only temporary. The flesh-side will cause us to fail because it has its own appetites and desires. It needs to feed itself with all the pleasure, possessions, and ego it can, because it knows its days are numbered. In it’s course, it will cause us to hurt others, and cause pain, suffering, and anguish in us. That is what it is designed to do.
Life teaches us to subdue that flesh, so we don’t have to suffer so much of the consequence of its actions. We try our best to overcome our flesh-side, but it will continue to bring us down. The problem is, in our minds, it is very difficult to separate the spirit from the flesh, and look at each as different entities. To us, it feels like we are one. But the glory of the Cross of Christ is that it revealed the separation of spirit and flesh. It tells us that the flesh will be disposed of, and the spirit will continue on by itself.
If we can think in those terms while the flesh is still with us, we can begin to find relief from our fear of God. He does not look at our flesh at all. He knows what he designed it for, and the purpose it serves. But, he does not hold its actions against us. He sees us in terms of the pureness and perfection of our spirit. If we can learn to do the same, our lives will improve immensely. We don’t need to worry about heavenly consequences of our flesh. There are none. But, we can save ourselves a lot of pain and suffering if we can learn to control our flesh while we are still connected to it.
Bruce,
I couldn’t agree more and in fact it gives me great peace knowing God will rid me of all impurities just like the dross is melted away from the gold. I know that all that we are going through in this flesh has a much higher purpose and that God will show us that glorious purpose in its fullness when we leave this flesh behind forever.
John T.,
WOW Indeed!
Peace
Geo
You guys have an awesome spirit. All y’all.