Comments on: Clarity of Thought!

By: Marco

Marco — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 10:31:52 +0000

As a christian there isn’t one single thing I have to do, the fantastical part about it is, is that it was never about having to do anything anyway, the whole tribal concept of gaining favor from the blood thirsty god in the sky with laws(put in place for the security and survival of the tribe - by the tribe and for the tribe) thus sacrificing lambs and placing sins on goats and sending them into the wilderness is ancient tribal Jewish (and other tribes sacrificed to the god in the sky) story, it is their experience, their mythology, their religion, their perception etc.

The world was flat and the earth was gods footstool. Hell resided inside the earth itself, so on and so forth.

My christian experience is to hear the spirit of the Christ calling me into a new humanity outside the boundaries and theistic imperialism of yesterdays religions/perceptions. A humanity that is free to live and love without prejudice,

Peace out,

Marco

By: steve martin

steve martin — Thu, 03 Jul 2008 04:22:06 +0000

Don,

You are a man that has heard the gospel. I mean, really ‘heard it’ !

By: Don R

Don R — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 21:10:34 +0000

Marco- I know whereof you speak, brother. I, too, am in that same place.

Steve- You speak the great truth.

By: steve martin

steve martin — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:44:12 +0000

As a Christian, there is not one single solitary thing that I must ‘do’.

Nothing.

That statement just drives Evangelicals up the wall…but it is true.

Now that is ‘bold grace’.

By: Cliff

Cliff — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 16:10:27 +0000

Marco,

I do understand the journey you are on and share in much agreement with many of things you have said, and as my daughter Mindy has taught me, my heart is something to be trusted more then I every thought possible when I was ingrained in church philosophy. If you truly study the writings of the OT & NT and how they came into being it changes how you see everything. I do think God (the universe) has allowed this book (the bible) to be a great influence on mankind but I think we were also expected to use the glorious brain and heart that was given to us to sift out that which does not fit with a peaceful life. Thanks so much for sharing.

By: Marco

Marco — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:37:30 +0000

I would just like to add one other thing, please don’t think that I do not understand what it is that is being preached(shared) on this site, I came out of the evangelical church, after over 10 years, to be so powerfully impacted by the very message you all share here, I remember meetings with Mike Williams and weeping in his arms because of the words he spoke, I listened to Robert Rutherfords messages religiously and shared them with friends, Martin Zender was a fave, as were others, I preached and shared this good news with whom ever would listen, alot of whom were fellow church members many of whom just couldn’t embrace an understanding of God redeeming all mankind, it is not that I don’t understand it or have not be effected by it.
With careful study and consideration, the bible began to lose its status as infallible or divinly inspired(both old and new testaments) in my heart and mind, I knew I was stepping into a whole new journey, having kept the elements, the essense, of the spirit that is in the message close to my heart, moving forward wasn’t just an optional step, but a necessary one, I was able to. Much in the same way many of you can relate to when you moved on from “churchianity”, you knew you couldn’t just close your eyes to it and look away. Thanks again, also would like to mention I really appreciate the freedom here to share my heart and mind with you all,

Marco

By: Marco

Marco — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 15:11:55 +0000

ah yes the gospel is very romantic indeed, symbolically speaking I am with you 100%, I tend to view the kingdom of God as only ever something that was/is never external, but one that is subjective to the individual(s)having the experience, objectively speaking we want so hard to find something to believe in, a parent God figure in the sky, in control and taking care of things(us), reigning terror (or love as is the case here) on our enemies(read old testament), having come to the realization that this is part of a dying theism, God language that no longer speaks to the people of this day, I abandon the old wine skins, they just won’t do any longer, I fill my new wine skins with the vision that Christ calls me into - a kingdom of the heart, this Jesus comes along and flips the religious institution on its head, so much so it has him crucified, the kingdom of God is within you he says to his friends and even his enemies.

In the spirit of it all we see this Christ person making no difference between male or female(so unlike the patriotic male God of the OT), Jew or Greek, gay or straight, black or white, but calls into a wholeness of self, challenging us to go so far with this as to be willing to give this self away.

Such a revolutionary this man was the hearers of his day knew nothing better than to wrap their theistic God language around him and years(decades) later following his crucifixion, all the while a developing tradition emerges over the following 50-100 years and results in the the gospels that were written, in fact some of Paul’s writings date earlier than the gospels, and is even evidenced by him making no reference to the virgin birth that came out of the developing tradition, simply speaking of Jesus as one born of a woman.

Humanity isn’t(wasn’t) so much in need of rescue from a “fallen state” as the old language speaks, but the need, as incomplete creatures, is to be called into wholeness, to be willing to step into a new humanity.
The “boldness of grace” is simply one avenue to walk in this new sense of being, to love others undeserved has transforming power to heal and restore that fellow soul, and since we are, metaphorically speaking, the body of Christ, this newness of life he calls us into, we have the capacity
to love and he loved, to give as he gave.

It was never about trying to gain right standing with the theistic God in the sky who has to punish Christ for our sins, that thinking is so bankrupt, but that was the language of the day, resulting in the developing tradition that begins in Matthew, the concern wasn’t to give historic record, the concern was to explain the God that was met, that was experienced, in this Jesus Christ, using the God language of the day.

I am rambling on now, I know I go against the grain, but I really think for Christianity to survive in this current world of ours we need to be willing to move forward in a bold new way, thanks for reading,

Peace to you all,

Marco

By: Cliff

Cliff — Tue, 01 Jul 2008 04:59:44 +0000

Connie, I sincerly believe that God’s wrath and his love are identical things. We need not fear because once we understand how awesome God’s love is for us we can relax knowing that eventually He will work out what we need to learn here on earth and once we see the glory of this journey we will look back on everything and understand. Below are some things I wrote about this a year ago.

Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,

Now we know that God was revealing something from heaven that would stand against all the godlessness and wickedness of men but what was it? Was he going to bring down fire and brimstone? Was he going to turn all the wicked people into pillars of salt?
You see we have the advantage of knowing exactly what God was revealing from heaven that would be able to destroy all godlessness and wickedness of men. Paul had already given the answer in the previous two verses.
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
As he says: “In the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed”. The righteousness from God that was revealed in the gospel is Jesus Christ himself. Jesus came to overpower godlessness and wickedness of men by forgiving all their sins. Where sin has gone grace has gone all the more. The LOVE of God and the WRATH of God are absolutely the very same thing. Yes, God loves us enough to destroy all the godlessness and wickedness that is in our lives but the way he accomplishes all of that is through the beauty of his glorious nature which is seen in the life of Jesus Christ. HE LOVES IT OUT OF US.
Abraham Lincoln once said: “The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend.” That’s exactly what God has done with all of us and he demonstrates his plan in the gospel. This is why the apostle John said the following:
1 John 4:18-208 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19We love because he first loved us.
God knew he could never bring us back to perfection through threat of punishment and yet so many preachers today are teaching the very opposite of what was revealed from heaven in the Gospel message. The gospel message is the only answer to our godlessness and wickedness and the answer is GRACE. There is a day for all of us when we will recognize this awesome love and on that day of awakening we will fall down on our knees in complete and total praise of this God of Love.

By: Connie Lard

Connie Lard — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 17:03:16 +0000

“You see, God will not have to force anyone because even the worst of sinners once faced with the full glory of God will fall down and give praise voluntarily.” (from Cliff)

This clears up for me what you guys believe. You are saying that even though someone may live a life that doesn’t seem to be in line with God’s will (like Hitler), at the end transformation will take place when that person is standing in the presence of God. Guess I’m a little dense, but I think I finally get what you are saying now. It is quite a paradigm shift. It will take awhile for me to consider this.

Thanks for the explanation.

By: SteveW

SteveW — Mon, 30 Jun 2008 14:37:02 +0000

But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
(1Co 15:20-24 NASB)

All rule and all authority is rooted in law of some form.

All will be made alive. Some take longer but it will happen. Boldgrace is abolishing all rule, all authority and all power….thank God.