Comments on: Answers to Hard Questions for Sue http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/ It's more wonderful than you can imagine! Wed, 07 Jan 2009 17:09:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.2 By: Sue http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-4210 Sue Thu, 06 Nov 2008 19:27:38 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-4210 Bob, "Jesus Against Christianity - Reclaiming The Missing Jesus" by Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is an excellent source for the topic you seek. 353 pages/very detailed - Because he first loved us - Sue Bob, “Jesus Against Christianity - Reclaiming The Missing Jesus” by Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is an excellent source for the topic you seek. 353 pages/very detailed - Because he first loved us - Sue

]]> By: marco http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3760 marco Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:36:13 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3760 Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins: http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm the book is called "Liberating the Gospels" although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and is excellent. there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: "Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally" grace N peace, Marco Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins:

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm

the book is called “Liberating the Gospels”

although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” and is excellent.

there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org

Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: “Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally”

grace N peace,

Marco

]]> By: marco albright http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3759 marco albright Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:34:58 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3759 Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins: http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm the book is called "Liberating the Gospels" although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and is excellent. there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: "Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally" grace N peace Marco Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins:

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm

the book is called “Liberating the Gospels”

although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” and is excellent.

there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org

Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: “Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally”

grace N peace

Marco

]]> By: marco albright http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3758 marco albright Mon, 13 Oct 2008 13:30:44 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3758 Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins: http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm the book is called "Liberating the Gospels" although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called "Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" and is excellent. there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: "Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally" Marco Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins:

http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm

the book is called “Liberating the Gospels”

although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” and is excellent.

there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org

Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: “Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally”

Marco

]]> By: Cliff http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3750 Cliff Sun, 12 Oct 2008 08:29:08 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3750 Bob, It's a post I wrote a couple of years ago. It's fairly short so I will just copy it here: Through a Child’s Eyes! Posted by Cliff When I was a boy we lived in the country. Our house was on the corner of two gravel roads (that’s country). My Dad worked at Studebaker’s in Southbend, Indiana and my Mother stayed home taking care of my brothers and I. We were not rich by any standard, but we never went without either. My memories are very fond of my childhood, filled with lots of love and family values that have served me well for my 55 years on this earth. Church was a normal part of our life. We went on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning, and Sunday night. As a boy I didn’t realize all that I see wrong with the church today. I liked going and seeing my friends. I liked being together with my family and I especially liked getting to go to the Dairy Queen on Sunday nights after church. Well unfortunately I grew up and as I became active in the church I saw lots of things that I just couldn’t accept. I won’t list it all here today but probably at the top of the list is the spirit of legalism that pervades the church. Oh, many will deny it but it exists none the less and continues to have it’s destruction in the minds of well meaning people. At the root of all legalism is LAW. And anyone who picks up a bible will find a law that they feel must be followed or else. The “Or Else” is the real problem. I have never minded people who have strong convictions about how they should lead their life, until they try to force it on me. That’s where the rub has always been for me. I grew up in the “churches of Christ” (non-instrumental) and it’s history is one of division. They have split over such things as use of a piano in worship, women teaching in adult classes, how many communion cups you can have, types of baptism, who can be divorced, eating in the church building, and the list could go on and on. So, just what is my point? Well, if you back up a few paragraphs you notice I said I liked church as a child, because as a child I never even knew about all the silly things that the adults were fighting about. I just liked singing songs, being with my family, seeing my friends, and enjoying all the good times we had together. I wasn’t looking to see who was sleeping with who, or who got picked up for a DWI, or who slipped up and said a cuss word. I didn’t care if you were baptized or what your position was on taking communion or using a piano. Do you think that just might be why Jesus said we have to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven? You see, today I am speaking to those of you who still attend church. Don’t get caught up in all the adult silliness. Don’t fall into the trap of legalism and its destruction. Study for you, not to convince someone else of what they aught to believe. Find the joy that God intended for us to have when we come together. Let nothing divide you from anyone else. And if you decide church is not for you, don’t give up on your relationship with Christ. As most of you know me by now you know I believe we are all his children whether we attend or not. Yes, I hope the day comes that people from all walks of life can come together and really enjoy each other. At this point, I don’t think I will see it in my lifetime, but maybe my grandchildren will. Anyway, I am grateful for the fond memories that I have as a child and maybe God has a way of helping us all filter out the ugliness that is often associated with the institutional church. Love can cover a multitude of sins. Bob,

It’s a post I wrote a couple of years ago. It’s fairly short so I will just copy it here:

Through a Child’s Eyes!
Posted by Cliff
When I was a boy we lived in the country. Our house was on the corner of two gravel roads (that’s country). My Dad worked at Studebaker’s in Southbend, Indiana and my Mother stayed home taking care of my brothers and I. We were not rich by any standard, but we never went without either. My memories are very fond of my childhood, filled with lots of love and family values that have served me well for my 55 years on this earth.
Church was a normal part of our life. We went on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning, and Sunday night. As a boy I didn’t realize all that I see wrong with the church today. I liked going and seeing my friends. I liked being together with my family and I especially liked getting to go to the Dairy Queen on Sunday nights after church.
Well unfortunately I grew up and as I became active in the church I saw lots of things that I just couldn’t accept. I won’t list it all here today but probably at the top of the list is the spirit of legalism that pervades the church. Oh, many will deny it but it exists none the less and continues to have it’s destruction in the minds of well meaning people.
At the root of all legalism is LAW. And anyone who picks up a bible will find a law that they feel must be followed or else. The “Or Else” is the real problem. I have never minded people who have strong convictions about how they should lead their life, until they try to force it on me. That’s where the rub has always been for me.
I grew up in the “churches of Christ” (non-instrumental) and it’s history is one of division. They have split over such things as use of a piano in worship, women teaching in adult classes, how many communion cups you can have, types of baptism, who can be divorced, eating in the church building, and the list could go on and on.
So, just what is my point? Well, if you back up a few paragraphs you notice I said I liked church as a child, because as a child I never even knew about all the silly things that the adults were fighting about. I just liked singing songs, being with my family, seeing my friends, and enjoying all the good times we had together. I wasn’t looking to see who was sleeping with who, or who got picked up for a DWI, or who slipped up and said a cuss word. I didn’t care if you were baptized or what your position was on taking communion or using a piano.
Do you think that just might be why Jesus said we have to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven? You see, today I am speaking to those of you who still attend church. Don’t get caught up in all the adult silliness. Don’t fall into the trap of legalism and its destruction. Study for you, not to convince someone else of what they aught to believe. Find the joy that God intended for us to have when we come together. Let nothing divide you from anyone else.
And if you decide church is not for you, don’t give up on your relationship with Christ. As most of you know me by now you know I believe we are all his children whether we attend or not.
Yes, I hope the day comes that people from all walks of life can come together and really enjoy each other. At this point, I don’t think I will see it in my lifetime, but maybe my grandchildren will. Anyway, I am grateful for the fond memories that I have as a child and maybe God has a way of helping us all filter out the ugliness that is often associated with the institutional church. Love can cover a multitude of sins.

]]> By: Bob http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3749 Bob Sat, 11 Oct 2008 18:26:03 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3749 Cliff, some good insights into some things I have also wondered about. Different perspective then I am use to. "Thru the eyes of a child" sounds interesting. Where can I find it? As for being held accountable for the actions we do on earth, it seems to me we are held accountable while we are on earth. This could be by going to jail, costing us a lot of money, loose of respect and trust by family, friends, or the community, etc. This seems more appropriate then God torturing us forever for what we do in this temporal life on earth. Marco, I have questioned the acceptance of the New Testament as the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God for 35 years now. This is a viewpoint not too well accepted by other Christians, even many in the grace circles. Do you have a web site or know of any that deal with this issue? Cliff, some good insights into some things I have also wondered about. Different perspective then I am use to. “Thru the eyes of a child” sounds interesting. Where can I find it?

As for being held accountable for the actions we do on earth, it seems to me we are held accountable while we are on earth. This could be by going to jail, costing us a lot of money, loose of respect and trust by family, friends, or the community, etc. This seems more appropriate then God torturing us forever for what we do in this temporal life on earth.

Marco, I have questioned the acceptance of the New Testament as the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God for 35 years now. This is a viewpoint not too well accepted by other Christians, even many in the grace circles. Do you have a web site or know of any that deal with this issue?

]]> By: marco albright http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3746 marco albright Sat, 11 Oct 2008 11:57:15 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3746 I agree the bible is fascinating, perhaps that is what led me(leads me) to finding out how it was written, by whom and so on. As far as understanding words Jesus most likely have spoken and those that are a product of tradition, well, thats part of the digging and searching. Its not all black and white, but there are clues and evidence to be found. I have come to understand the bible as an epic, not literal history, of the Jews. The NT writings stem from the OT, they are not eyewitness accounts, but were written to fit and expand on the OT to give reason to the movement that became know as Christianity. The staggering sobering reality is not one reputable scholar today would say they understand the virgin birth or physical ascension, for example, to be actual historic fact. They are part of the developing tradition of the day, built with the God language of that given time. In todays world these old themes are dying fast, the old wine skins cannot contain the new wine of Enlightenment, of Awareness. The thing I appreciate about this site is the freedom to share, also the understanding and promoting a gospel that includes. We may not take the same path, but we arrive at the same destination. Sam I apologize for not speaking as clear or in a manner that is profitable for you, grace and peace to one and all Marco I agree the bible is fascinating, perhaps that is what led me(leads me) to finding out how it was written, by whom and so on.
As far as understanding words Jesus most likely have spoken and those that are a product of tradition, well, thats part of the digging and searching. Its not all black and white, but there are clues and evidence to be found.

I have come to understand the bible as an epic, not literal history, of the Jews. The NT writings stem from the OT, they are not eyewitness accounts, but were written to fit and expand on the OT to give reason to the movement that became know as Christianity.

The staggering sobering reality is not one reputable scholar today would say they understand the virgin birth or physical ascension, for example, to be actual historic fact. They are part of the developing tradition of the day, built with the God language of that given time.
In todays world these old themes are dying fast, the old wine skins cannot contain the new wine of Enlightenment, of Awareness.

The thing I appreciate about this site is the freedom to share, also the understanding and promoting a gospel that includes. We may not take the same path, but we arrive at the same destination.

Sam I apologize for not speaking as clear or in a manner that is profitable for you,

grace and peace to one and all

Marco

]]> By: SUE http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3742 SUE Fri, 10 Oct 2008 17:06:57 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3742 Cliff, The bible is fascinating. I'm grateful to have learned that because of God's love for his creation NOTHING can separate anyone from him. AWESOME!! Because he first loved us - Sue Cliff, The bible is fascinating. I’m grateful to have learned that because of God’s love for his creation NOTHING can separate anyone from him. AWESOME!! Because he first loved us - Sue

]]> By: Cliff http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3740 Cliff Fri, 10 Oct 2008 13:55:11 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3740 I have also read all the books debunking scripture and why some things do not belong but for me the bottom line is that everything we have has been allowed to stay for whatever reason. I'm not saying it's all true but maybe God wanted us to use our perfect hearts that he created to find our way through the maze of man's interpreted scripture. I also believe there is enough simple scriptures for anyone to find their way, as well as enough tough scriptures for the most learned to search out their entire lives with always something to learn. In either event for me I have always found the bible to be fascinating. The peace I have is because I realize that what I believe about the bible will play NO PART in my redemption. I have also read all the books debunking scripture and why some things do not belong but for me the bottom line is that everything we have has been allowed to stay for whatever reason. I’m not saying it’s all true but maybe God wanted us to use our perfect hearts that he created to find our way through the maze of man’s interpreted scripture. I also believe there is enough simple scriptures for anyone to find their way, as well as enough tough scriptures for the most learned to search out their entire lives with always something to learn.

In either event for me I have always found the bible to be fascinating. The peace I have is because I realize that what I believe about the bible will play NO PART in my redemption.

]]> By: Sam http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3738 Sam Fri, 10 Oct 2008 11:56:46 +0000 http://boldgrace.com/2008/09/30/answers-to-hard-questions-for-sue/#comment-3738 As I have said before, I read here many times but as you know I very seldom comment. I suppose I could say I have limited understanding on many subjects but I do enjoy reading most of what is posted here as well as the comments by some. I, like Sue have had many questions answered here but I have to be honest that I have great difficulty understanding what is meant by Marco's comments. I know I have said this before but I cannot pinpoint or follow the meaning behind the comments he makes. We all know we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs and rightly so and it's obvious the moderators of this site respect that. I cannot say I agree or disagree with Marco's comments as I have no idea what is being said. I suppose it could be said it is because of religious upbringing and I have a set mind pattern that I live with, but that is no longer so as I left those behind years ago and have embraced grace and the fact Jesus did what He did at the cross was for every human being. Just my thoughts today as I sit here and try and make sense of the meaning behind the aforementioned comments. Sam As I have said before, I read here many times but as you know I very seldom comment. I suppose I could say I have limited understanding on many subjects but I do enjoy reading most of what is posted here as well as the comments by some.

I, like Sue have had many questions answered here but I have to be honest that I have great difficulty understanding what is meant by Marco’s comments. I know I have said this before but I cannot pinpoint or follow the meaning behind the comments he makes. We all know we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs and rightly so and it’s obvious the moderators of this site respect that.

I cannot say I agree or disagree with Marco’s comments as I have no idea what is being said. I suppose it could be said it is because of religious upbringing and I have a set mind pattern that I live with, but that is no longer so as I left those behind years ago and have embraced grace and the fact Jesus did what He did at the cross was for every human being.

Just my thoughts today as I sit here and try and make sense of the meaning behind the aforementioned comments.

Sam

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