Answers to Hard Questions for Sue
IF YOU DENY ME BEFORE MEN I WILL DENY YOU BEFORE MY FATHER.
I agree that Jesus will deny us before the Father if we deny him, but just what does that mean? Peter denied him and yet we know he was not denied redemption. What then was he denied? When Peter denied Jesus he was denying himself the fellowship of God’s perfect Love. We can and often do this whenever we look to ourselves for righteousness, but when we count ONLY on the righteousness of Jesus we find ourselves in perfect alignment with who God made us to be. JESUS IS THAT PERFECT LOVE and when we deny him we are being denied the peace that comes from knowing we are one with the FATHER.
IF YOU BELIEVE YOU WILL BE SAVED
This is an easy one. There is a big difference between being saved and being redeemed. Salvation does come from believing the Gospel message. When we believe that God loves us separate and apart from anything we can do or believe our minds are saved from self righteousness (the need to follow law to be right with God) that always ends in failure and a tormented mind. Believing the Gospel (God’s love for us through what CHRIST DID) leads our minds into a Peace that has nothing whatsoever to do with our performance. If you do not believe you are still redeemed, you just don’t know it yet. The time will come that every knee will bow and every tongue will praise God for His UNCONDITIONAL LOVE. And by the way, I don’t think most christians believe. They are too trapped by the false Gospel that they need to believe something and do something to be OK with God.
DEPART FROM ME, I NEVER KNEW YOU.
You can read the following post that deals more in-depth with this subject http://boldgrace.com/2008/04/27/mathew-25-the-judgment/ Let me say that Christ does not identify with our false self. All of us have acquired a false self that is based on the lies we have believed over our lifetime. Most of those lies has come from the church. Certainly Christ is always speaking to the false self inside of us to depart and eventually it will, but the part that Christ does know within us he will never deny. The true self within each of us is that part that can not be destroyed no matter how bad we think we have been. God made us in his PERFECT IMAGE and that IMAGE will always remain.
BELOW IS ANOTHER SET OF QUESTIONS I ANSWERED AWHILE BACK THAT YOU MIGHT BE INTERESTED IN READING.
I received an E-mail this week with the following questions from a sincere seeker of truth. Below is how I answered.
I do have a question or 2….or 3. If our sins were covered on the cross, hence, redeeming all men, how are we held accountable for the actions we do earth? (Murder, adultery etc etc) Is there no longer a moral right and wrong? If there is, in our limited understanding, what does it matter then what I do? I am not justifying the notion that we can or should do what we want, but how are we held accountable for stuff that goes against the goodness of God? Does sin still exist? Is there temporal punishment?
I could think of a million more but I am on journey right now with 2 broken legs slowly dragging myself.
________________________________________
Concerning your questions about being held accountable for our sins. I firmly believe that no human being escapes the consequences of their choices, but what has really helped me be OK with that notion is knowing that God is not only able but willing to take every choice we make and turn it into good. I believe He has set up a perfect process by which each of us will learn what we need to learn while on this earth. I have also come to believe that even his so called wrath is really his perfect love and I welcome it. We don’t have to fret about anyone getting away with anything because the system He has us in is quite capable of giving us exactly what we need in LOVE. Let me share with you a post I did that explains this in more detail.
I WELCOME THE WRATH OF GOD!
Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
You see we have the advantage of knowing exactly what God was revealing from heaven that would be able to destroy all godlessness and wickedness of men. Paul had already given the answer in the previous two verses.
16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Abraham Lincoln once said: “The best way to destroy an enemy is to make them your friend.” That’s exactly what God has done with all of us and he demonstrates his plan in the gospel.
1 John 4:18-20 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 19 We love because he first loved us.
For Paul the apostle it happened when he was on the road to Damascus and he describes what God did for him and will do for all.
1 Tim 1:12-17
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14 The grace of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, along with the faith and love that are in Christ Jesus.
15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners — of whom I am the worst. 16 But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life. 17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Hi Cliff
I WANT to believe what you’ve written, but what about John 3:16 where it says “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him will not PERISH but have eternal life”. Doesn’t this verse imply that believing in Him saves us from death (physical/spiritual) rather than from self-righteousness?
Thanks
Julia
Julia, Who was Jesus talking to? A master of Israel….and he was talking about people have the ability to have a different life then they were experiencing through the LAW. The LAW lead life ending in “perishing”, destruction, death. He wanted them to experience ETERNAL LIFE. Now just what is ETERNAL LIFE? Let’s begin with the orginal meaning of eternal.
NT:166
1. without beginning or end, that which always has been and always will be
(from Thayer’s Greek Lexicon, Electronic Database. Copyright © 2000, 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
Think about it Julia…..What is it that is without beginning or end, which always has been and always will be? IT IS GOD, and God created himself within us. Jesus was telling them in John 3:16 that by believing in who he was allowed them to believe in who they truly were……”CHILDREN MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD.
Now when you look at who Jesus was talking to it is clear he was talking to people who were steeped in following a moral code (the law) in order to be right with God. Without doubt we can lead a perishing life (trying to follow law) here on earth but as I said at some point even that life will completely be destroyed making room only for what is reality. The reality is that Christ has taken us all into his body at the cross. We are perfect in every way even if we don’t believe it yet.
1 Cor 15:49-57
49 And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50 I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—
52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality.
54 When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: “Death has been swallowed up in victory.”
55 “Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?” h
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God! He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
WHERE IS THE STING OF DEATH? THE CHURCH STILL TEACHES IT HAS A GREAT STING, BUT THE GOSPEL SAYS WE HAVE BEEN GIVEN THE VICTORY THROUGH OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST.
Cliff, The posts you write and answers to questions are delivered most lovingly. Thank you. Because he first loved us - Sue
Cliff I thank God you are still writing the true gospel and open peoples hearts and minds to true love and grace of God.
Love in Christ Dan
Thanks very much for answering my question, Cliff. I agree with Sue “the posts you write and answers to questions are delivered most lovingly.” I must admit I feel like the person who wrote, “I am on journey right now with 2 broken legs slowly dragging myself.”!
Cliff, I am overwhelmed with your posts, they are deeply insightful and my heart asks what would life have been like if such love and acceptance was taught in my early years. I would like to have in my hands all of your posts. My ? is are all availabe? Do you have a book? I have 4 grown children and many grandchildren and I would like them to know this grace and peace given to us freely by God and Jesus.
You must be so busy and I don’t know exactly how this website works and I don’t want to offend anyone. I am 60 years hungry for this way of understanding the scriptures. Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue
This is Geo. I am one of the five who write post here at Bold Grace.
Let me suggest that you listen to a friend of ours here at Bold Grace. His name is Mike Williams. He has a weekly online call in show. The archive is here
http://www.glennkleinonline.com/webcast/guests/mwilliams.html
Also you can go here http://www.gospelogic.com/audio.htm
and download some of Mike’s talks. Mike’s website is http://www.gospelrevolution.com/
That will hold you until Cliff has the time to reply. also checkout out AUDIO LINK HERE
http://boldgrace.com/audio/
Peace
Geo
Sue
Checkout our AUDIO PAGE
http://boldgrace.com/audio/
Peace
Geo
Sue,
If you go to the left hand side of and scroll down until you see “Categories”, then you will see the names of those who contribute to this site. Just click on “Cliff” and it will bring up everything I have posted. Or you can just click here….. http://boldgrace.com/category/contributors/cliff/
I could also send you some of my old posts written before I got on this site if you like. They are in “Word” fomat.
And thank you for your kindness. I have been searching for this all of my life and in my early years I had no one I could turn to. It’s so nice now to have so many friends all across the world who understand what true grace is all about.
Cliff
Cliff, YES! I would love to have copies of your prewebsite posts. Will this be thru email/mail? I look forward to much reading. Thank you so much.
Cliff, amazing revelation regarding the wrath and love of God being the same… Jesus Christ. This helps me so much with one of many things that I’m trying to put in proper perspective regarding the Gospel that just recently has opened up to me (after 30+ years in evangelical Christianity).
After reading the Bible for so many years with “law” eyes, everything has been turned upside down with my new “grace” eyes. Thanks for this blog and all those that contribute.
Cliff, Thanks so much for the old posts!
Cliff, I just read “Thru the eyes of a child” from your old posts and I learned we both have the same church background, church of Christ! Just thought it interesting. Thanks - Sue
Cliff, I was going to to compare John 10:11 (Jesus said I am the good shepherd and Luke 15:4 (man having 100 sheep leaving them to find 1 that was lost) as an example of GRACE until verse 7 (100 being just and the 1 needing repentence). I get GRACE - God seeing all mankind thru Jesus and his sacrifice - what I don’t know is how to discern scripture that sounds like traditional christianity, ( damnation etc.) and this includes many scriptures where Jesus is talking. Am I making any sense? How do you do that? Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue,
One thing that helped me sort out that kind of question was learning that Jesus was talking to people before THE CROSS. The event of the Cross changed everything.
Peace
Geo
I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in
heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over
ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Who is the sinner? the sinner is the one who tries to relate to GOD THROUGH HIS ACTIONS, WORDS AND DEEDS. The ones who need no repentance are those who see and understand that GRACE is the ONLY way to know God within us the hope of glory
Peace
Geo
Geo, Thank you so much, I think I get it ! It is so wonderful to be able to get answers from others knowledge. I will separate what Jesus said before the cross (speaking to people of his day) to what he said after his ressurection (speaking to ALL?). Because he first loved us - Sue
I suspect some of what we have written concerning the words of Jesus spoken are more a result of a developing tradition (gospels were written 80+ years after his death) than actual historical record.
One doesn’t need so much to seperate what Jesus said before/after the cross, one needs to seperate what Jesus actually spoke with what Jesus is said to have spoken.
I sense that Jesus pointing to the kingdom(realm) of God already within and his very much so humanitarian efforts are in keeping with the actual historic Jesus before the traditional God lanuage tried to make sense of it all (insert virgin births and magical assensions).
Grace is a wonderful expression of love, but to build doctrines around the concept of grace is more religion, it gets boxed and wrapped to sell(give) to the masses.
I suspect every and any words that were actually spoken by Jesus can be gleaned for spiritual growth in the here and now, the realm within is not on a clock nor follows a calander of events,
happy day,
Marco
Marco, How does one separte what Jesus actually spoke from what Jesus is said to have spoken? All we have on what Jesus said is in the Bible. Without virgin birth and assension we also have no ressurecton, I’m not sure what you are saying. Thank you - Because he first loved us - Sue
As I have said before, I read here many times but as you know I very seldom comment. I suppose I could say I have limited understanding on many subjects but I do enjoy reading most of what is posted here as well as the comments by some.
I, like Sue have had many questions answered here but I have to be honest that I have great difficulty understanding what is meant by Marco’s comments. I know I have said this before but I cannot pinpoint or follow the meaning behind the comments he makes. We all know we are entitled to our own opinions and beliefs and rightly so and it’s obvious the moderators of this site respect that.
I cannot say I agree or disagree with Marco’s comments as I have no idea what is being said. I suppose it could be said it is because of religious upbringing and I have a set mind pattern that I live with, but that is no longer so as I left those behind years ago and have embraced grace and the fact Jesus did what He did at the cross was for every human being.
Just my thoughts today as I sit here and try and make sense of the meaning behind the aforementioned comments.
Sam
I have also read all the books debunking scripture and why some things do not belong but for me the bottom line is that everything we have has been allowed to stay for whatever reason. I’m not saying it’s all true but maybe God wanted us to use our perfect hearts that he created to find our way through the maze of man’s interpreted scripture. I also believe there is enough simple scriptures for anyone to find their way, as well as enough tough scriptures for the most learned to search out their entire lives with always something to learn.
In either event for me I have always found the bible to be fascinating. The peace I have is because I realize that what I believe about the bible will play NO PART in my redemption.
Cliff, The bible is fascinating. I’m grateful to have learned that because of God’s love for his creation NOTHING can separate anyone from him. AWESOME!! Because he first loved us - Sue
I agree the bible is fascinating, perhaps that is what led me(leads me) to finding out how it was written, by whom and so on.
As far as understanding words Jesus most likely have spoken and those that are a product of tradition, well, thats part of the digging and searching. Its not all black and white, but there are clues and evidence to be found.
I have come to understand the bible as an epic, not literal history, of the Jews. The NT writings stem from the OT, they are not eyewitness accounts, but were written to fit and expand on the OT to give reason to the movement that became know as Christianity.
The staggering sobering reality is not one reputable scholar today would say they understand the virgin birth or physical ascension, for example, to be actual historic fact. They are part of the developing tradition of the day, built with the God language of that given time.
In todays world these old themes are dying fast, the old wine skins cannot contain the new wine of Enlightenment, of Awareness.
The thing I appreciate about this site is the freedom to share, also the understanding and promoting a gospel that includes. We may not take the same path, but we arrive at the same destination.
Sam I apologize for not speaking as clear or in a manner that is profitable for you,
grace and peace to one and all
Marco
Cliff, some good insights into some things I have also wondered about. Different perspective then I am use to. “Thru the eyes of a child” sounds interesting. Where can I find it?
As for being held accountable for the actions we do on earth, it seems to me we are held accountable while we are on earth. This could be by going to jail, costing us a lot of money, loose of respect and trust by family, friends, or the community, etc. This seems more appropriate then God torturing us forever for what we do in this temporal life on earth.
Marco, I have questioned the acceptance of the New Testament as the inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God for 35 years now. This is a viewpoint not too well accepted by other Christians, even many in the grace circles. Do you have a web site or know of any that deal with this issue?
Bob,
It’s a post I wrote a couple of years ago. It’s fairly short so I will just copy it here:
Through a Child’s Eyes!
Posted by Cliff
When I was a boy we lived in the country. Our house was on the corner of two gravel roads (that’s country). My Dad worked at Studebaker’s in Southbend, Indiana and my Mother stayed home taking care of my brothers and I. We were not rich by any standard, but we never went without either. My memories are very fond of my childhood, filled with lots of love and family values that have served me well for my 55 years on this earth.
Church was a normal part of our life. We went on Wednesday evening, Sunday morning, and Sunday night. As a boy I didn’t realize all that I see wrong with the church today. I liked going and seeing my friends. I liked being together with my family and I especially liked getting to go to the Dairy Queen on Sunday nights after church.
Well unfortunately I grew up and as I became active in the church I saw lots of things that I just couldn’t accept. I won’t list it all here today but probably at the top of the list is the spirit of legalism that pervades the church. Oh, many will deny it but it exists none the less and continues to have it’s destruction in the minds of well meaning people.
At the root of all legalism is LAW. And anyone who picks up a bible will find a law that they feel must be followed or else. The “Or Else” is the real problem. I have never minded people who have strong convictions about how they should lead their life, until they try to force it on me. That’s where the rub has always been for me.
I grew up in the “churches of Christ” (non-instrumental) and it’s history is one of division. They have split over such things as use of a piano in worship, women teaching in adult classes, how many communion cups you can have, types of baptism, who can be divorced, eating in the church building, and the list could go on and on.
So, just what is my point? Well, if you back up a few paragraphs you notice I said I liked church as a child, because as a child I never even knew about all the silly things that the adults were fighting about. I just liked singing songs, being with my family, seeing my friends, and enjoying all the good times we had together. I wasn’t looking to see who was sleeping with who, or who got picked up for a DWI, or who slipped up and said a cuss word. I didn’t care if you were baptized or what your position was on taking communion or using a piano.
Do you think that just might be why Jesus said we have to become like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven? You see, today I am speaking to those of you who still attend church. Don’t get caught up in all the adult silliness. Don’t fall into the trap of legalism and its destruction. Study for you, not to convince someone else of what they aught to believe. Find the joy that God intended for us to have when we come together. Let nothing divide you from anyone else.
And if you decide church is not for you, don’t give up on your relationship with Christ. As most of you know me by now you know I believe we are all his children whether we attend or not.
Yes, I hope the day comes that people from all walks of life can come together and really enjoy each other. At this point, I don’t think I will see it in my lifetime, but maybe my grandchildren will. Anyway, I am grateful for the fond memories that I have as a child and maybe God has a way of helping us all filter out the ugliness that is often associated with the institutional church. Love can cover a multitude of sins.
Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins:
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm
the book is called “Liberating the Gospels”
although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” and is excellent.
there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org
Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: “Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally”
Marco
Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins:
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm
the book is called “Liberating the Gospels”
although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” and is excellent.
there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org
Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: “Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally”
grace N peace
Marco
Hi Bob, I stumbled upon this link to a review of a book by JS Spong, it is an interesting article in explaining the New Testaments origins:
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/world/christ/xt-ibel3.htm
the book is called “Liberating the Gospels”
although I have never read that picticular book, I have read another by Spong called “Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism” and is excellent.
there is this website as well, a very good resource www.westarinstitute.org
Also you may want to check this out, a book by Marcus Borg: “Reading the Bible Again For the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not Literally”
grace N peace,
Marco
Bob, “Jesus Against Christianity - Reclaiming The Missing Jesus” by Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer is an excellent source for the topic you seek. 353 pages/very detailed - Because he first loved us - Sue