Why We Are Forgiven
The church will teach you that you are forgiven because of two actions. One of those actions is God’s and the other one is our’s. They teach that God sent Christ to the cross so that we then we could have an opportunity to accept forgiveness by confessing our sins, repenting of them, and then following an obedient lifestyle that will gain us heaven when we die. Of course the problem in that teaching is the same problem mankind has always had and that is our inability to follow through with our part.
With our track record as humans do you really think God (our Father) would leave anything up to us? If we look at the words of Jesus we can get clearer understanding of why we are forgiven:
Luke 23:34 Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing."
We are forgiven because we don’t know what we are doing. Now that fits fairly well with what I know about the human race. Even now in the age of information and enlightenment look at our world and you will see a human race still in chaos, division, and ugliness. Has the church provided the answers? I think not. The reason the FATHER will forgive us today as well as 2000 years ago is because WE STILL DON’T KNOW WHAT WE ARE DOING.
Paul the apostle told us the same thing about his forgiveness:
1 Tim 1:12-17
12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has given me strength, that he considered me faithful, appointing me to his service. 13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
Again we see WHY he was forgiven, because HE DIDN’T KNOW WHAT HE WAS DOING.
God made his first covenant with man and God kept his part but man failed completely. Why would God make another covenant with mankind knowing he would fail again? Well he did make a NEW COVENANT but as you read it tell me what part man plays?
Heb 8:7-12 For if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would have been sought for another. But God found fault with the people and said : "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest.For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more."
As you read this NEW COVENANT who is taking the lead to make sure WE WILL ALL KNOW THE LORD?
We received forgiveness because we didn’t KNOW what we were doing and God has made clear he will not leave any of us in our ignorance and unbelief. Sooner or later we will all know because this covenant is based on what God will do not on what we will do.
Thank God for His promise of forgiveness without us asking for it.
Love Dan
Cliff, I just may be thinking myself into the looney bin - but - Since mankind had NO control in being created and has never known what he is doing why does he need forgiven at all?
Because he thinks he does. The mind of man lives in the illusion of it’s false self and part of the cure from that illusion is to believe you are forgiven.
Question: Maybe this relates. Maybe not. But I feel like it might. Why does a 51 year old woman who’s discovered that she has cancer, stop at her altar after communion with no words in her heart at all, to find herself suddenly praying in her head, “Lord, find me worthy.” I’m confused by this, but I felt it so keenly, it had to be one of the most soulfelt prayers that I ever prayed, and I’ve no idea where the words came from. I never really felt unforgiven. I have trouble forgiving myself for things, but I’ve always known that God forgives me. Find me worthy? Worthy of what? Where did that come from? Do I doubt my own worth to God? Dunno. I do feel that I’m on the verge of learning great lessons, but it’s still a confusing time. I’ve been reading your post, and trying to put it in place. What is the illusion of my false self? I don’t get it.
Debby, The illusion of the False Self is that it does not see the real self. The real self is WORTHY. The real self is perfect as it was made in God’s image. There’s a wonderful quote that I love to use that speaks to this:
NOTHING REAL CAN BE THREATENED, NOTHING UNREAL EXISTS, AND THEREIN LIES THE PEACE OF GOD.
The false self is the UNREAL that does not exist except in our minds.
Jesus said to the same crowds that crucified him that THEY WERE THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD. Who was he speaking to when he said that? Certainly not the false self. He was speaking to that part of each of us that has always been light and always will be.
When Jesus told the Father to forgive them because they do not KNOW—–just what was it that they didn’t know? THEY DIDN’T KNOW THAT HE (JESUS) WAS THE PERFECT REPRENSENTATION OF WHO THEY REALLY WERE.
PEACE
Debby, Another way of looking at this is that we are composed of many “selves,” which often becomes apparent during disrupting life events. Examples are replete in literature of those who expressed this, sometimes to their own delight, at other times in dismay or despair. Think of Walt Whitman’s “Song of Myself” - “I am large! I contain a multitude!” Think of the man in the Bible possessed by demons - “I am Legion!” Think of Paul - “the good I would do I do not…….”
A crisis gives one the opportunity to step back and observe these conflicting “selves” in a way that may not have been possible before. I believe your cry at the altar may be evidence that there is still within you a child which doubts herself as worthy. Acknowledging this and bringing her before her Father can be a part of your healing.
When you read the New Testament with this concept in mind, you can see that one important thing Jesus does in his actions and parables is to confront men (and women) with their inner division so that they may be made whole. He is a beautiful example of a man with an undivided heart, and that is what he invites us to become. This is redemption. It allows us to have a “dancing life” rather than have to plod along in old worn-out shoes!
I am getting bummed out - Why wouldn’t a loving God just end all the illusion? It can’t be because we need to learn because millions of babies and children die without “benefit” of learning. I, too read A COURSE IN MIRACLES which actually gave me migrane headaches. Am I just stupid?
Sue, I have not read A COURSE IN MIRACLES, which does sound like something that would give a person a migraine headache!
And, yes, it would be nice if life were simpler, but the reality is that it just isn’t. (”Life is difficult”, if I remember correctly, is one of the first lines from THE ROAD LESS TRAVELED, written by Scott Peck.)
I find it most helpful to focus on what I can actually do something about, rather than trying to tackle questions like the one you asked. Sometimes posing those kinds of questions can be used as a smokescreen to keep us from dealing with issues closer at home where we might actually have some impact. (Not saying that you are doing that, just that I have done that in the past and found it to be a frustrating waste of time!)
love what you said there Cliff in your last post, good stuff!
Marco
Connie, I read “A Road Less Traveled” many years ago. I have spent most of my adult life seeking “truth” that makes sense. It is true life is tough and not equally tough and that is not an illusion! If I measured my life by victims of the holocaust or any other murder senario it would seem I have lived on easy street. But others tradgedy only gives brief relief to my cross of depression. I think most people go thru this kind of thinking, because basically self is the only person we can trust, as we can only hope our trust in others is true. I feel any ? is legitimate, and the same ? will resonate differently to each person. It seems that any answers anyone comes up with is only true in part as an exception to any answer always pops up! Connie, thank you for your input. I think I read a poem by you about grace and I wanted to copy it but cannot find the post it is in. Have a beautiful day - because he first loved us - Sue
Sue, You are absolutely right that life is tough and not equally tough and that is not an illusion. (I’ve never heard it put quite like that before!) I have spent too much time in the past wondering why I had to face certain difficult situations and others around me didn’t. It seemed so unfair. And, then there came a time when I could see that, compared to many, my life has been lived on “easy street”, as you put it. What I choose to focus on makes all the difference. There are still times I can get quite bogged down in lamenting my losses, but, for the most part I now choose to focus on the blessings. I wish I was more like those who just naturally seem to see through rose-colored glasses, but I am more of a melancholy bent. Therefore, it has taken a lot of work for me to become a person of peace and joy. Your comments have led me to think you and I may share similar struggles. May you be blessed with a day filled with delight!
Cliff, I apologize for getting away from the subject of the original post. You are right that some churches teach that we must earn our forgiveness. Not all churches teach that, but some do. I agree with you that the Bible is clear on this. We are unable to live the kind of lives it would take to “earn” forgiveness. Even the best of us (whatever that means) cannot do that. Jesus is our example of what that perfect life looks like, and he showed us what perfect love does. We can’t live up to that. We can fall on our knees in worship, or dance with joy in delight, or sit quietly in wonder, but we can’t possibly live up to it!
Cliff, ” Nothing real can be threatened, nothing unreal exists, and therein is the peace of God” Is this spiritual or physical? It sounds pretty but physical is real and always threatened, what is unreal that does not exist?
We live in a very unreal world. You see people with low self esteem, you see people with high self esteem. Their vision of themselves is not real. What is real is what God created. Everywhere you look people are trying to be what they are not. You see people trying to create worlds for themselves that are not real at all, to move in spheres that don’t even matter. And when it comes right down to it, what is real is God and what he has created, and this will be forever. Is this what you are trying to say?
After the flood God said the imagination of mans heart is evil from his youth (Gen.8:21)- it does not say some mens hearts but mans heart, so, is this our false self? Adam and Eve had knowledge before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was that knowledge absent of good and evil? I guess a false self verses real self eludes me as God created everything about us including our imagination, and evil (Isaiah 45:6&7) God created everything therefore nothing is false.
No. I think that we all struggle with our own concept of self. However God knows exactly what we are, and loves us despite that. Satan deceives us, allows us to deceive ourselves. Satan is one of God’s creations. God created good. God created evil. God gave us free choice. He loves us, but we are the choosers. I think, anyways.
To All: I have really enjoyed the exchange of ideas all through out this post. And Connie…..you know me better then to ever think you need to apologize for anything. I love the way you think and everything you add to all of our conversations. That also goes for everyone.
Sue….What I quoted about “Nothing real……is a statement that came out of the Course in Miricles. I have also read “The Road Less Travelled” and loved it much. It is one of the few books I read at least three times.
As far as what I think is “UNREAL”:
2 Cor 4:16-18
16 Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.
17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.
18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen. For what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.
The flesh (this body of clay) that we SEE is the unreal, but within it is the UNSEEN (the reality of who we really are).
All that God has allowed us to experience is for a reason beyond our present understanding so I always try to keep that in mind. Once you relax with the thought that you (as Job) will never in this body of flesh be able to comprehend GOD then it is easier, as Connie said to concentrate on the blessings. Does that mean we should not ask? Of course not. Part of this great experience is asking, seeking, knocking. But what should not be apart of it is doubting that GOD loves us any and all along the way of our journey.
PEACE
What Cliff said about real vs. unreal is so right. Too often in my asking, seeking, and knocking I have focused on the unreal, meaning the material things I can SEE, rather than the real and eternal. I recently read a suggestion which has helped me in prayer. Pray earnestly for your heart’s desire, then end the prayer with “that or something better!” It’s kind of a different way of saying, “Thy will be done.”
Cliff, Jesus said, Father forgive them; for they know not what they DO. He did not say forgive them for they know not what they don’t know. YES, the flesh is temporary but that does not equate unreal. I am sure when Jesus was in the flesh he experienced it as real. I also think it is human to doubt God, he will never leave us even if we doubt. As a child it never occured to me that I needed Gods forgiveness until another human in church preached it. I wonder if I would have thought it up on my own if I had not received it from another person. Also, if man is the one who thinks he needs forgiven then Jesus did not need to ask God to forgive mankind, which leads me back to my first post today. You know I love to hear you teach, and I love this post and all the people who lovingly shared thoughts, thank you all for allowing me to be a part of it. I look forward to more. Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue, You always have a right to disagree here and still feel very welcome. I think when Jesus told the FATHER to forgive them he said it outloud for their benefit. He already knew they were forgiven.
I think its more real than that Cliff, I think if Jesus really muttered those words it was from a heart that went through the hell of the cross, sometimes we loose sight of Jesus humanity and this is unfortunate, infact it is within his humanity God was revealed, I think the key here is not getting caught up in thinking is he really asking the Father to forgive or are they already forgiven, but to peer into the spirit of it, you see a physically broken mans heart cry that doesn’t stop loving others wastefully,
Marco
Recently I found WWW.FINDAVERSE.COM where you put in a word or phrase etc. and all bible verses that contain that word will come up. The following words are simply not found in the bible; free will - free choice - personal saviour - illusion - false self - rapture - but delusion is in one verse. Some wonderful info I found at tentmaker.org are as follows; 1)The Savior of the World Series - 15 subjects - The Lake of Fire by J Preston Eby (several subjects of which one talks about free will) 2)The Problem of Evil by John Essex followed by The Role of the Adversary by James Webb 3) Bible Translations that Do Not Teach Eternal Torment by Gary Amirault (this one shows how the word hell was mistranslated into scripture) The following verse is taken from a poem by George Roemisch; Forgiveness is the fragrance of the violet which still clings to the heel that crushed it. Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue- You are obviously in “seeking” mode. That’s great! It’s a wonderful place to be in. I believe our Source opens more doors to revelation when we open up to hear what the universe is saying. We are ALL on our own path to the same destination. There are many different ways to arrive at that same place. It makes me so joyous to see one seeking as you are because I too am on a journey. Namaste- I recognize, and salute the divinity in you.
Ron R, Thank you for your post. I am in seeking mode and will be until I am no more because there will always be something I don’t know or understand. I am very curious! I would love to hear about where your journey has/is taking you. Because he first loved us - Sue
Debby, I have been thinking of you and wonder how you are feeling? Your post did not say when your illness was diagnosed and I wanted to wish you wellness. I hope you have found your answer to your ? of why you asked God to find you worthy. You are worthy - you have Gods grace and that is sufficient! Because he first loved us - Sue
Cliff, In the quote above about man not teaching neighbor and Gods words written on the heart - Isn’t this website about teaching grace and looking within? Obviously not everyone comprehends therefore needs teaching. We are born with learning capacity - we learn by observation, study, choosing, others choosing for us, depravation of whatever, abundance, etc. Some people are born and live without the ability to learn or think, ie a baby born without a brain yet eats and sleeps, who when I last saw the medical program she was on she was about 2 yrs. old being lovingly taken care of by her mother. She is a person (clay) without a brain. So there must be something else within - the breath of life? In another post I observed Adam and Eve had knowledge before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, was that knowledge absent of good and evil? What kind of knowledge was it? As far as going to a church - aren’t we in church wherever we go as we teach and are taught by all encounters with other people? My home is wherever I am and wherever I am God is there inside and outside of me. - Because he first loved us - Sue
You speak of ignorance and unbelief. Unfortunately, from what I have read, this site is full of both. I cannot believe you have read a Bible, and still come up with the foolish things that you spew out. I hope and pray that God opens your eyes to the truth of the gospel, soon. I genuinely feel so sorry for all of you. The Bible says that when the blind lead the blind, they will both fall in a ditch. OPEN YOUR EYES. When Jesus said, forgive them for they know not what they do, He was speaking about their ignorance of who He was. It was not a blanket forgiveness to ALL people, for ALL time, who are ignorant and don’t believe. Satan LOVES the fact that this is what you got out Jesus’ statement. Please see that you are headed down the road to destruction. There is only ONE name by which a man MUST be saved, and that is Jesus Christ.
Oh Alan, get over yourself!
Just kidding with you!
Yes, there is only one name by which a man must be saved… and it happened some 2000 years ago! It doesn’t matter if we believe it or not. With Christ, all mankind was gathered in him, died with him, was resurrected with him, and ascended into heaven with him! We are all “born again” with Christ! Isn’t that great news? If we will allow our spirits to awaken to that possibility, it is truly the most astounding news any lifeform could receive! It will set our spirits free to experience God with intimacy, and begin to grasp the Kingdom!
Your fear is overwhelming. You don’t have to believe anything we say here on Boldgrace. And you don’t have to worry about us. We trust Christ. Period. We don’t trust what we do, say, act, feel, believe… we just trust Christ. If he was who he said he was, then it is finished. No more struggle, no more doubt, no more fear… God made peace with his creation. He revealed in no uncertain terms that he is NOT angry with us. He freely gives us his righteousness, and he keeps no record of our wrongs. He is love, and love casts out ALL fear.
Don’t fear, my friend. What will it add to your life? Fear is the destroyer of life and you appear to be full of it. Hang out with us, and watch your fear melt away into a perfect peace. Find yourself settled in your connectedness with the Father, and enjoy his life within you.
Peace, brother!
Bruce, I know you mean well, and I know you truly believe what you are saying, but oh my gosh!!! You could not be more misled. We are not ALL born again. What Christ did on the cross was to give us the OPPORTUNITY to accept Him and BE born again, spiritually. My fear is not an all encompassing fear that keeps me awake at night. I am a very happy person. What I am afraid of right now is the tone of your blog. It reads like a new-age, happy happy, joy joy kind of fluff writing. You have drank the kool-aid and haven’t tasted the poison yet. That’s why I go to church. I get my mind filled with truth,and not this kind of worldy propaganda. I truly hope you change the way you think, because I truly am afraid that you will open your eyes one day in hell, and too late, realize how wrong you were. I don’t write all this to belittle you, but to warn you. I will continue to pray for you. May God bless you.
Thanks, Alan. I really need your prayers, but I’d rather know your love.
Question: if Jesus is the Christ, then it is because he fulfilled the prophecies of old. Where in those prophecies did it say the Christ would give the world an OPPORTUNITY to be saved?
I know you mean well, Alan. I was in your shoes a few years back. In fact most of us here were. But, our hearts were awakened to a truth that surpasses all understanding. It’s OK if you don’t get it. You can believe whatever you want about God. You can continue to beat yourself up, and live in the illusion that it is what YOU do that determines whether God accepts you or not (isn’t that the same as self-righteousness?). If acceptance by God is determined by what we do, say, act, believe, etc., how can we ever be sure we have done, said, acted, believed… correctly enough, completely enough, or thoroughly enough? Where is the assurance, if we must count on ourselves for our salvation? I’d rather simply trust Jesus. If Jesus is who he said he is, then he IS the redemption of the world. And as we begin to understand the perfection, and completion, of our redemption through Christ, our minds will begin to find salvation from the doubt and fear that torments us.
Love
Alan, Since you seem to be so sure what is required of mankind to be OK with God could you please explain in detail exactly what one has to do or believe to be OK with God? I might warn you that 33,000 different denominations of the christian way have tried this without any agreement or success on just what that formula would look like. You must be a very bright person to have all the answers.
Nice smart answer Cliff. No, of course I do not have all the answers. And Bruce, you do have my love. I have been reading some of the posts and comments on this blog, and I am absolutely dumbfounded. You say you believe in Jesus Christ, you DON’T believe in hell, even though Jesus preached on hell more than anything else, and you believe you can just go through life doing whatever makes you happy, with no consequences, because Jesus said “Father, forgive them”. If you really believe ON Jesus, you will read His words, ALL His words, and see how horribly wrong you all are. I will not try to convince you anymore of what the Bible really says, because you have closed your ears. And why? Because you saw too many bad things in your churches, and you got fed up and left. Well guess what. I have seen a lot of bad things in my family growing up, and I learned to deal with them. I didn’t just leave. We are commanded by Jesus to gather together with other believers, and worship our Creator, God, His Son Jesus, and to have His Holy Spirit living inside us, guiding us and convicting us of our sins. No, it isn’t always comfortable and fun, but He never promised it would be. All I can say is, there is a hell, and you need to ask God to forgive you of your sins, and stay out of it.
That’s cool, bro! We must all live with God as we understand him, and surely, in doing that, we will become just like him (as we know him).
“Show me your friends and I will show you your future.”