If We Could Only Understand…..
If we could only understand God would explain. Many come to this site and remind me of myself in younger days. They are full of questions and in great need of answers and I guess that’s what keeps me writing, although I’m not really sure it matters at all.
Let me tell you about my parents. My Dad was Cliff (the first) and my mother is Barbara. They raised my two brothers and me in a very loving and good home. We went to church (churches of Christ) most of my young years. My parents were never happy in the church because they had such loving and honest hearts and it was just too much for them to be phony. When my Dad lost his job at Studebaker’s in South Bend we moved to Richmond. I was 12 at the time. It gave them the opportunity to leave the church since we didn’t really know anyone in our new home town. It was the best choice they could have ever made and even though there were struggles I believe they enjoyed a peace together that few church goers ever find.
At age 22 I went back to church taking my family with me and was determined to find truth. What always stuck in my head was my parents great happiness without the church and I needed to understand what went wrong. And so, I studied. I asked every imaginable question and also sacrificed much time in reading, searching, & looking for truth. Looking back I can tell you that the church is the last place for real truth seekers. I endured much pain through the years because I was unwilling to just accept the status quo and fall in line.
To make a very long story short the point I want to make here today is that it really doesn’t matter if you spend your life seeking all the answers (like I did) or just give up and trust your own heart (like my parents did). You see we can not in this limited physical experience understand and I don’t think we were even created to do so.
Job 38:1-3 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
Man has written some incredible words throughout the ages but the reality is that at our best our words to each other are dark counsel and without knowledge. I’m not saying they don’t have value. I’m just saying that I have come to a place in life where I am convinced that we need to quit worrying about the answers so much and spend more time listening to the still small voice within. That’s what my parents did without even really understanding it. I guess I did the same thing except I took the long painful road that finally led me back to my heart.
My father has been gone now for almost 13 years. He was so loved and respected by everyone who knew him and yet according to even the most liberal of churches my father is suffering an eternal torment because of his lack of church affiliation. Those that knew him best will tell you that in their hearts they could never believe my Dad is in HELL but their church doctrine says something different. WHY CAN’T THEY OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT THEIR HEART TELLS THEM?
The bottom line is that "IF WE COULD UNDERSTAND GOD WOULD EXPLAIN". The fact is we CAN NOT UNDERSTAND and I don’t think we ever will. Oh, that won’t stop me from asking or searching because for some reason He made me (us) that way. It must have a purpose but I just don’t think the purpose is about the answers. I think it’s all about the experience.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Look up the word "KNOW" in the above verse and it means to experience in a very intimate way. It has nothing to do with intellectual knowledge. It comes from the same word used in the OT when it talked about a man knowing (have sexual relations) with a woman.
God is not interested in our UNDERSTANDING. He is interested in US EXPERIENCING HIM.
Please don’t think I mind the questions. That’s part of the EXPERIENCE, but I do want all of you to have the advantage of hearing your still small voice a lot quicker then I did.
PEACE,
Cliff
TRUTH
. . . . as experienced by Wes Miller
Fear not the loss of splendor in the setting sun of Truth,
But savor the tutelage of Truth in the solitude of the evening and in your meditations of the night,
For joy comes in the morning as again the rays of Truth ignite the heavens with blazing
revelations in its vindication of Eternal Life.
Christ is the Way.
The Way is Truth.
The Truth is Life.
There is No Death.
“MY SELAH ZONE”
. . . . as experienced by Wes Miller
I used to think that my times of ‘spiritual’ inactivity and drought were brought about by an elusive something that I did or did not do.
I felt guilty when I was not on a ‘spiritual’ high, “on fire for the Lord”, and constantly gorging myself on artificial God things to the point of gluttony. Anything less was “backsliding.” The religious blahs devoid of feeling, desire, and excitement were unacceptable. I had work to do for the Lord.
But, instead, I discovered that He had a work to do in me. My manufactured worship had eclipsed the silence and rest that God had planned for me at a time when I was most teachable.
Selah, i.e., Stop! think on these things; let yourself grow; let God show and teach you His meaning.
When I have finished a meal at my Father’s table, it is normal that I not feel desire and hunger.
It is now time for me to digest what Father has provided for me.
I call this “my Selah Zone”. This is where the taste of my belief is absorbed as the nourishment of confidence when I remember, meditate, and understand that which is now becoming a part of me.
A respite is essential for my ignorance to become insight and my relationship to mature into bonding.
When the current session in “my Selah Zone” is finished, I will again receive what is necessary for me, when it is time for another feast.
Sounds like you are in the “experience zone”. Our words may be only dark counsel compared to God’s but your words carry a lot of the “still small voice” in them.
Wes
I LOVE YOU!
It is so good to see you post here.
We had a GREAT time at breakfast a few weeks ago and long to have more time together.
Peace
Geo
Cliff wrote:
They are full of questions and in great need of answers and I guess that’s what keeps me writing, although I’m not really sure it matters at all.
Cliff,
You are right on one level, that level being God’s view and opinion of us. On that level it does not matter. What you write will NEVER change His view of us as His Children. We are now and will forever be with Him regardless of our thoughts, writings, actions or beliefs. Thank God His agreement is with Jesus and not with me or you or any of mankind.
But on the level that we live on in this life it means LIFE to ALL who read your words. Even to us who know you it means daily fuel when we read your thoughts. Those words help me see my worth. A worth that will never change and as we see so we become in this life.
Peace
Geo
If Uncle Tooday isn’t in heaven, then none of us have any hope. I have absolutley no doubt. That man taught me more about love than most people in the “church”. I loved him dearly and miss him very much. I can just picture him and his brothers and even though they were affiliated with the church, I know they’re in heaven, too.
Love ya Cliffy
your cuz
Lisa Hazelbaker Perry
Cliff, The bible says God is no respector of persons and yet a few found favour with God. What is the difference? Because he first loved us – Sue
Lisa, It’s so good to hear from you. They were three of the best men I knew. Somehow all three of them were able to scale the walls of religion and always stay close in spite of what the church tried to teach them. They were men of love first and that’s what made us love them so much.
Love Ya Lisa with all my heart,
Cliffy
Cliff, As usual your posts are very thought provoking. There are many bible verses that speak of withholding understanding and some like Luke 24:45 “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.” John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” Perhaps understanding = knowing = experience? Is Hebrews 10:16-17 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them: and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” the small still voice you speak of? Because he first loved us – Sue
p.s.
I think questions and answers do matter as they help us get thru this life.
Dear Sue,
The answers you seek are NEAR YOU, in fact WITHIN YOU, in your heart and in your mouth. As you turn to your heart for the answers you will begin to feel something welling up. As soon as you become aware of the feeling, speak it out. It is all there within you. Have a go Sue
Sue
Audrey is spot on with her advice to look within yourself. God our Father, our lord Jesus and His Holy Spirit are there within you! All of the answers to the questions of life are there within you! What we at Bold Grace seek to do is help you discover those answers. Please don’t ever take anything we say as “the truth”. The Truth resides within you and within ALL of Mankind. The problem as I see it is that religion including christianity has added stuff to the simple message that God is in us the HOPE OF GLORY!
To ALL Who comment here:
You are a shining light a city on a hill. You make it easier for all to see the Christ within!
Peace
Geo
Cliff I really enjoyed your testimony and your conclusion. I know the difficulty of writing and once when I was frustrated and ready to quit I asked, “why write?”
That still small voice answered, “when you write you worship Me.”
I never had a problem after that and if there was none to read that which I write I would still continue because He is worthy to be praised.
Brother you seem to have a wonderful view of the infinite nature of God and the difficulties we face in understanding Him and I appreciate that. I started a series on my blog entitled, “Paradoxology & The Kingdom of God.” This is just a little excerpt which I believe echoes your message.
How often I enjoy reading of some great theological mind that has fallen at His feet knowing that only with our vision of Christ, is there sense to made of our existence. And that sense ……. well it’s nigh impossible to explain, thus we can only throw up our hands and point to Jesus and say there it is ….. there it all is! That is God and that is Love! That’s the Whole of it and Whole of it is Jesus! And when you have come to the place where He is all you see and there is nothing else, you will ……….. well then you will be the Whole and you will understand perfectly. Such is the Mystery of Christ, the Resurrection and God, All in All.
It is all found in Jesus. And “Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way.”
Be blessed my friend and thanks for writing,
Jack
Jack said: “It is all found in Jesus.” And “Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way”.
Until the religious world (christianity) sees that there is no recipe there will always be division. Each person has a unique story and the only ingredient that is the same within us is “THE CHRIST WITHIN”. This Christ within can not be intellectualized, He can only be experienced.
Thanks Jack. Your words are greatly appreciated.
Cliff, It’s good to hear more of your story. I never knew the details of why your dad and mom stopped going to church. I do know that one of the greatest delights of my dad and mom was getting together with your parents as well as Uncle Joe and Aunt Abbie. Those three couples shared a bond that is unusual, especially among families today. I wonder if they ever discussed any of this? As far as I know, they never did.
You are right that some churches would teach as you said re: your dad’s eternal destiny. But, there is a wide range of teaching on this subject, and not all churches teach that, and certainly not all churchgoers believe that way.
I might add that there are many reasons that a person might choose to go to church besides to escape eternal torment.
I have already commented on this here before, so I won’t belabor that point. While you have decided that church is not the way for you, for others it is. Not every church everywhere is the same, and I think that is something you often overlook in your comments.
You know I love you and have always held you and your entire family in high regard. May God continue to bless you and yours with love, peace, and joy.
Cliff the writting of your experiences is alot like when Paul wrote the letter to the churches.That was the way God used to open the door for people to see the true.
Love in Christ Dan
Connie, in defense of Cliff’s view, 99.9% of organized churches believe in the doctrine of “Hell, a place of eternal torment.” If they don’t actively preach it, this foul doctrine is the 800 pound gorilla that although ignored still crouches in the corner. Whether it is Calvinism or Arminianism or a mixture as long as any theological belief system of a church is tied to the Hellish doctrine there is corruption, as fear is the motivator.
I spent ten years as a minister in the organized church before I saw the light. I have been out of the system for over a quarter century and have spent much time studying and observing the ways of the Harlot.
Decades ago I used to visit with an old friend and a pioneer of the Gospel of the Kingdom. You might have read the writings of this wonderful man of God or possibly even heard of him. His name is George Hawtin and what he shared with me has above all been a great lesson as far as the ways of churches. George said, “Jack, when ever you turn all the chairs around to face a man, you are in trouble.” Over and over I have witnessed this as one group after another gets together with the idea they will do it differently. It always gets corrupted and it doesn’t take long, as from the group, leaders emerge and take control. Thank God the “Age of the Wilderness Church” is about over.
I care deeply about our children and our children’s children and it was this motivation that caused me to write a message today entitled “Coming of Age.” It speaks to that which I have just shared. I also wept an hour ago, when I read this same message to a friend who was a pastor for many years. Today this woman shares with her six children how the organized church has had it all wrong. She encourages them to come out as she also knows you can never change the system by co-mingling.
My article is published at “Jackson Hole & Christ” which is listed in the Blogroll here. I can only pray it will serve above all our children.
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
Mr. Hennessey, I would be interested to know where you get your statistic that 99.9% of organized churches believe in the doctine of hell? The church exists in so many different places and in so many forms, I just don’t see how it is possible to be so adamantly sure of this figure. It is not my intention to start a debate with you (or anyone) on this point. I just really want to know your source for this. Thanks!
Hey Cliff I enjoyed what you wrote, God as experience is all we ever have, as much as we often tie up this experience with doctrine/information, whether true or false, is as much a distraction as anything else.
Beliefs in God are only a poor substitute for the living reality of God, in this moment. There is no time to be experienced besides the Now, never has and never will be.
Doctrines/information can only point to this realm, but identity is so often bound to the doctrine/information about the realm and not the realm itself.
This realm is without form, I AM. Jesus was a vessel in which this realm was manifest. As we are also.
The whole thing about organized religion, although many teach hell, the problem isn’t necessarily hell, its the literalization of it as an actual place.
Teaching that people will go there if they don’t do this or that would be laughable if it were not so destructive.
The reality is as metaphor hell is real, millions of people are living in hell right now, a hell brought on by themselves/others/circumstances etc..
that they, in their state of consciousness, can see no escape.
Using old God language they need to be “saved”, this power we experience as God needs to be Awakened within, consciousness itself.
What saves us isn’t doctrine/information, but it is a host of everything else, it is Mother Teresa touching a leper, an untouchable.
Sin is not offending the ruling male diety in the sky mentality, sin is when one diminishes the life of another. To enhance, not diminish, the life of another is to walk in the kingdom of God.
It is loving and being loved wastefully, unconditionally without the counting of cost.This is the spirit of it all and this is where we experience
the realm of God. Not tomorrow, not yesterday, Now. Now is all we ever have, Now is eternity.
When organized religion can move on from old broken concepts and into the Present, it will be good. Already there are grassroots movements promoting Progressive Christianity, religion itself must evolve or die.
have a graceful day,
Marco
I continue to enjoy your posts, Cliff. Keep it up!
Marco- Very well put, my friend. Nice comment.
“Mr. Hennessey, I would be interested to know where you get your statistic that 99.9% of organized churches believe in the doctine of hell? The church exists in so many different places and in so many forms, I just don’t see how it is possible to be so adamantly sure of this figure. It is not my intention to start a debate with you (or anyone) on this point. I just really want to know your source for this. Thanks!”
Connie, 99.9% is a metaphorical term and yes without debating or detracting from Cliff’s writing or the many comments I will leave it at that.
Bless you
Connie,
Maybe I have asked this before? Do you hold any position of leadership at your church? Are you on the board or do you have any titles?
Peace
Geo
No, Geo, I don’t. I”m simply a regular person doing the best I can do follow Jesus. I attend church and find that it’s a mixed blessing, as some of the things you guys object to are true, as no group composed of human beings is ever going to be perfect. However, to take what you or I have found in our respective experiences with church and generalize to all churches everywhere is quite a stretch. I’m not ready to drink that koolaid.
Why do you ask?
it is not about going to church or not going to church, I personally do not, but would if there was one within range. Any out let to be an encouragement and blessing to others should not be discouraged. This doesn’t mean all has to be agreed upon to experience fellowship, only that you have a heart that is willing to Be.
in the grip of grace,
Marco
Marco, I love what you said about sin being that which diminishes others. And the inverse is true too. Love is that which increases others. That’s beautiful.
But, as to being an encouragement to those who participate in organized religious services… I equate that much the same as trying to be an encouragement to people going to see a movie at a theater. The majority of the people don’t know each other… most of the time, they are “busy” watching the performance… and afterward, they just want to rush home.
Personally, I think we can be an encouragement to everyone we come across, especially if we can somehow “connect” with them in real terms. That is one of the greatest joys in life… discovering ways to make someone’s day a little brighter.
Great love
You are so right Bruce! I love to meet a total stranger and find our connection. I learn so much more that way!
Bruce, I certainly relate to what you are saying. My primary place of ministry is at my workplace, as that is where I spend 40 hours a week. I try to find small ways to encourage coworkers and patients as we go through the day. When I can do that, not only do I make their day a little brighter, mine is brightened as well! Share the love!
I kind of figured Connie that you did not hold any position at your church. 4 of the 5 contributing writers here on Bold Grace were in leadership positions. I am not sure about Mindy? But I know myself, Bruce, Steve and Cliff were. The reason I asked is that it would be hard for you to see what we see if you had not been in those positions. My guess is that if you spent 10-30 years as we have in those positions you would then have the same view that Cliff and the rest of us do. I am happy for you that you are not in those positions. It is those positions that see what we have seen.What we have seen is not from the pew but from the workings on the inside. And I for one can tell you the body is sick on the inside. You may not see it but is is none the less sick.
Peace
Geo
The word church does not come from the Greek work ecclesia. The word ‘church’ is a direct decedent etymologically of the Greek word ‘kirke’. In Anglo Saxon it’s the word ‘Circe’; she was a character of Greek mythology who was the daughter of the sun god Sol and Perseis. She was supposed to possess great knowledge of magic and venomous herbs, by which she was able to charm and fascinate. With her magic and potions Circe had the power to turn men into animals.
Stranger than fiction ……….. and we wonder the powers of the spirit world as “church” is the common term today. She still charms and fascinates and those under her spell will defend her come hell or high water.
“Come out of her” (Rev 18:4) sounds good to me both inside and out.
and yes and amen Geo, some of us have been inside the belly of the beast and wow do we know the cost
Jack
Geo, Though I hold no position in a church, I grew up as a preacher’s kid and was a deacon’s wife for a number of years until he left me for a younger woman at age 40. I tell you this to say that I’ve had plenty of reason to become disillusioned with churches, and have to a certain extent, but I also realize that not every church everywhere is alike. And that there are many good people in churches (and out) and that much good is done by churches, as well as some not so good things. Just as some families are healthier than others, some churches are healthy and some not so much. I see no reason to totally give up on church (or families) just because of this. You simply cannot generalize your experience to all of Christendom.
If you really understand what I am saying then it really doesn’t matter which position you may take because in either case our counsel is so very limited. The heart unshackled by religion is free to experience the God within and that is all I really care about encouraging in all that visit here. You can not experience the God within through fear. The essence of who we are can only be experienced through absolute unconditional love. The figure may not be 99.9% but I have yet to find or hear about any traditional church that does not have the element of fear. Yes, you can find Unitarian & Universalist churches that do not teach fear but I don’t know of any others. If there are some then please point me to one of them and maybe they will let me hold a meeting. I have asked many traditional churches to let me do just that and I am always turned down.
Connie, Do you think your church would let me hold a meeting? I am not trying to be funny but I think I already know the answer. I am glad you find peace in the church, but for me to support any oganization that teaches fear would no longer be acceptable. As far as the good they do, so do many Muslim groups and yet those same churches that do so much good would condemn the Muslin groups to Hell reagarless of how much good they may do.
The church I attend is far from perfect, but I would not characterize it as teaching fear. I have never heard anything from the pulpit that I would characterize as condemning any other group to hell. In fact, I do not even know what the preacher there believes on that issue, as I have never heard it mentioned. I do get tired of being asked for money, as budget is always an issue. There are other things I could complain about as well, and sometimes do. To be honest, I am not exactly “at peace” in the church, as there are some things there I wish were different. Still, I am not ready to give up on the whole idea of church just because I am not totally pleased with everything that happens in my local congregation. Being a part of a church teaches me that the world does not revolve around me and my little views, and it is good for that if for nothing else.
As for whether the church I attend would let you hold a meeting, Cliff, I really have no idea. We often have had preachers from other denominations come and speak to us and our minister speaks to their churches as well. Not for the purpose of debate, but simply to bring a message that will be of encouragement, and to bring some unity into the often fragmented body of Christ, if only for a little while.
Connie said: “I have never heard anything from the pulpit that I would characterize as condemning any other group to hell.”
Sounds like a healthier group than the last church where I was a member. It was the typical Southern Baptist church. Lots of hellfire and brimstone sermons. In fact, the sermon that pushed me over the edge and made me tell my wife that I was done with church, was one where the pastor gave a list of people BY NAME that were going to burn in hell. He’s still the pastor there. It’s the FBC in Scottsboro, AL. A lot of the people that were members there when I left have also left that church, but most of them are still in other local congregations which may not PREACH hell, but definitely BELIEVE in hell. They can have it if that’s what they want; it’s not for me.
Good to hear that at least your pastor doesn’t scare the congregation with hell.
Jason
Jason, I definitely would have left that church, too. By the way, I live in Florence, Alabama, so we’re practically neighbors!
Hey Bruce thanks for the comments, I appreciate it.
I am not sure how really important it is to know where the word “church” comes from other than to try and show others how smart we are, its just another word of thousands that have ancient mythological beginnings, it is all about what does the word mean in our world today, although it is interesting to know origin thats for sure.
While it is fair to assume church (organized religion) has no use for me and I for it in every traditional sense of the word(not just the issue of hell and fear, but theism in general), I would like to meet with others (the interweb is a pretty weak substitute) and discuss ideas, to encourage and be encouraged, to challenge and be challenged etc..
For my wife and I this would be a “church” within range. Although I do not despair over it, in fact I really enjoy life, when the essence of who we are (consciousness) colors (or begins to) all aspects of life thinking about going/not going to church is about as significant a decision as whether to peel a banana from the top or from the bottom.
yup
Marco
Marco said “I would like to meet with others (the interweb is a pretty weak substitute) and discuss ideas, to encourage and be encouraged, to challenge and be challenged etc..”
I’m with you 100% here, Marco. The only problem is that an institution of organized religion is nothing like that. In my experience, and Connie, correct me if you see it differently… the vast majority of religous businesses (corporations) we call “churches” are far more interested in conforming people to their point of view on all things than being a platform for spiritual exploration and conversation. And that’s OK, because there are a lot of people out there who WANT to be conformed to a certain way of thinking. They find comfort and safety in being told what they should believe about God, and why they should believe it. It’s OK, I understand that need. I had that need (or at least I was told that I had that need) for most of my adult life. I know the attraction. For years and years, I was willing to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” (as Geo would say). I knew when to keep my mouth shut, and I knew when I needed to speak. They told me what to say and how to say it (even though it often went against my better judgment). But at some point, not unlike the new wineskin, I burst at the seams and quickly found myself conveniently on the outside.
Connie, do me a favor. Go up to your pastor and say “I no longer believe in hell. I believe that Christ was who he said he was, and redeemed the whole world to the Father. That is the good news of Jesus Christ! And if that IS the truth, there would be no need for a place of punishment.” It doesn’t matter if you believe it or not… just say the words. I would be extremely interested in the reaction you receive.
Jason, our stories are much alike.
I know it’s not fair to lump all “church businesses” into one basket, but I’ve yet to see a religious institution that did not use fear to control their membership. The fear they preach might not be on the forefront of everyone’s mind and words, but it’s there, sometimes buried buried deep underneath all the fluff, just waiting for the right moment to raise it’s ugly head.
Bruce, Not sure why you think I would do something like that just because someone on the internet wants me to. Pretty bizarre suggestion. I don’t believe in playing games with people just to see their reaction.
Connie, you will never know what they believe until you challenge them. I suggest that, when confronted, they will respond with a message of fear. I have a feeling that they keep their “fear mongering” under wraps and don’t bring it out until they are forced to. If they think you believe the “right things”, then they don’t need to use their fear-weapon. But, if you display a little free-thinking, you might see an entirely different side of things. You say your church doesn’t use fear, well step out of line, and I think you’ll see the truth. Maybe I’m wrong, or maybe you don’t really want to know.
On a positive note, as one that quit the organized church a quarter century ago, I have found those that walk in the deepest places of God dwell much alone with just Jesus. I also believe the greatest advances of and in the Kingdom of God are made through prayer. I love this by Lettie Cowman, an old missionary who wrote much about being alone.
Dare to Be Alone
By Mrs. Charles E. Cowman
“Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” (John 16:32).
It need not be said that to carry out conviction into action is a costly sacrifice. It may make necessary renunciations and separations which leave one to feel a strange sense both of deprivation and loneliness. But he who will fly, as an eagle does, into the higher levels where cloudless day abides, and live in the sunshine of God, must be content to live a comparatively lonely life.
No bird is so solitary as the eagle. Eagles never fly in flocks; one, or at most two, ever being seen at once. But the life that is lived unto God, however it forfeits human companionships, knows Divine fellowship.
God seeks eagle-men. No man ever comes into a realization of the best things of God, who does not, upon the Godward side of his life, learn to walk alone with God. We find Abraham alone in Horeb upon the heights, but Lot, dwelling in Sodom. Moses, skilled in all the wisdom of Egypt must go forty years into the desert alone with God. Paul, who was filled with Greek learning and had also sat at the feet of Gamaliel, must go into Arabia and learn the desert life with God. Let God isolate us. I do not mean the isolation of a monastery. In this isolating experience He develops an independence of faith and life so that the soul needs no longer the constant help, prayer, faith or attention of his neighbor. Such assistance and inspiration from the other members are necessary and have their place in the Christian’s development, but there comes a time when they act as a direct hindrance to the individual’s faith and welfare. God knows how to change the circumstances in order to give us an isolating experience. We yield to God and He takes us through something, and when it is over, those about us, who are no less loved than before, are no longer depended upon. We realize that He has wrought some things in us, and that the wings of our souls have learned to beat the upper air.
We must dare to be alone. Jacob must be left alone if the Angel of God is to whisper in his ear the mystic name of Shiloh; Daniel must be left alone if he is to see celestial visions; John must be banished to Patmos if he is deeply to take and firmly to keep “the print of heaven.”
He trod the wine-press alone. Are we prepared for a “splendid isolation” rather than fail Him?
… you got me to thinking…
It’s funny how, we are alone… together.
“Alone” is not the same as “lonely”.
An interesting read: Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by John Shelby Spong –
I see Connie as LOVING the people in her congregation in spite of what they may or may not believe, knowing full well she/they will not agree on everything anyway, so why cause a division over something that has not come up. Maybe it will be Connie, because of her loving way, someday help them see grace and not fear. (if and when it comes up) I don’t think Connie is supporting teachers of fear but she is sharing what they
know of Jesus and his love. I see you, Connie, as the adult ready to show the babes in Christ the way of grace because you live it before them.
Even grace based thought can become like the Pharasee who was glad he was not like other children of God.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Brand me a “Pharisee” then, because I am glad that I do not hold to the same systems of fear & intimidation theology, that those in christianity do. They are no less perfect in God’s sight than you or me; I’m just glad I’m not part of their religious systems (anymore).
I have never seen this work Sue. I have seen scores with the same M.O., to stay and minister and it hasn’t worked. Not one time. I have on a number of occasions tried myself, even once with a small intimate home fellowship. Either the oppression will finally get you or you will know you are not welcome any more.
Many of us have learned that you cannot remain within the religious system with the idea of bringing Truth to the poor souls that inhabit such. We do not make people pure by mingling with their mixture! One must come out that others might find by our exit that Jesus dwells outside the camp.
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. Hbr 13:12,13
Blessings,
Jack
Thank you, Sue, for articulating that. I don’t always live up to it, but that is what I aspire to become.
Bruce, your suggestion to pose someone a question just to get their reaction is appalling to me. I would never want someone to treat me that way, and I would not do that to anyone else. Open, honest dialogue is one thing. Baiting someone just to get their reaction is another thing altogether. You may see that kind of behavior as being free-thinking and challenging and even “pushing the envelope.” I see it as being immature, unloving, and downright creepy. Might be excused in a 13-year-old kid, but not in an adult.
If our preacher or anyone else gets up and begins to preach or teach what I consider to be in error, then I would speak to him about it. I see no reason to go out of my way to stir up trouble just because I think he may believe something differently than I do. There can never be peace in any group of people, whether it’s a church or a family, if everyone behaves that way. As much as possible, I intend to live at peace with all men – even at church!
Sue wrote:
“Even grace based thought can become like the Pharasee who was glad he was not like other children of God.”
o my god that is the most impressivly provocative thing I have read in a long time, thank you for that stir of consciousness.
Also Connie I hear what you are saying but I don’t think Bruce was intending it the way you are taking it, calm down take 3 deep breaths and look up
Thanks Marco. Good advice.
Jack, I do not think it is my responsibility to “make people pure by mingling with their mixture.” Making people pure is not my job. Loving them is what I need to focus on. God will move people along as He sees fit.
Hey guys, it just occurred to me that I am getting way too intent on trying to get you to see my point of view. It really doesn’t matter whether you see it or not. I’ll just say a couple of more things. Some of the most beautiful lives I’ve ever seen have been lived by men and women who were devoted to their God and their church and who even believed in hell. Some of the most beautiful lives I’ve ever seen have been lived by men and women who chose a different path and did not stay within the boundaries of an organized church. Cliff, you know exactly who and what I’m talking about. I will not choose to speak against either path or say that one path must be chosen by all. I really do have love in my heart for you here at BoldGrace. Please accept my regrets, Bruce, if what I spoke was harsh. Y’all carry on how you see fit and I’ll just keep on doin’ my thing in my little corner of the world.
Connie……what you bring to boldgrace is always of value and I for one hope you will keep bringing it. In my 35 + years of trying to work within the organized church I look back and know that it was a journey I had to take. I know it seems like it but I really don’t have a problem with any particular person in or out of the church. My fight (if you can call it that) is against an oppressive message whether spoken loudly or softly. The message that God will only love us if we buckle under and do or believe right is the central message of the traditional church and I feel called to speak against that message. I know full well that there are well meaning, loving, and kind people through out the churches but that will never make their message any more true. When I do speak out against the message of conditional love I am always attacked by those who are in leadership within the organized church. You are a rare and wonderful christian that I am sure will always be a great example to those around you but I am still convinced that organized religion is nothing less then evil shrouded in good. The good news is that God rescues us in our ignorance and unbelief. The message I teach is that ALL OF US ARE OK, THE MESSAGE OF THE TRADITION CHURCH IS ONLY A FEW ARE OK. I have been in both camps and I speak from my heart when I say the camp I am in now is full of PEACE.
Jack, There are 7 billion people on earth at the present time – so the Christain groups from that number plus other so called fear based religions would be far more than you or I or anyone could bare witness to what works and what does not work. There are many reasons people may not respond to your truth. Sometimes it is not what we have to say but how we say it. Or maybe the person is just not ready to grasp what you have to teach. Sometimes one can destroy another person even with truth. Other people have every right to hold onto what helps them on their journey to truth. 1 Peter 3:15 says “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and be READY always to give as ANSWER to every man that ASKETH you a reason for the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Challenge? Confront? Perhaps that is the reason it usually doesn’t work.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Jason, I will not brand you anything. Other than our Lord you are the only one who knows your heart. You do NOT know the heart of anyone else in or out of churches. There are people who go to church and think very different than the church tenents or even other people in that church, and for reasons too numerous to talk about. I’m very happy for you that you found your truth and it would be gracious of you to give others the same right to find their way to that narrow gate without judgement. I, too, by traditional thought am churchless. But Jesus said where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name he is with us. He said to pray alone in a closet so I know he is also with 1 as well. So I have a church that works for me. I came to this website because I found some truth here – not ALL truth but some truth. May God bless you on your journey. Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue it is a Spirit led walk and I see you and Connie speaking to a “good” that hangs on the wrong tree. “Even’s God’s worst evil is good, while man’s best good is evil.” There is ONE GOOD and one tree of Righteousness and Life. His name is Jesus …….. He is the seed buried in every man and the tree that eventually grows up in every man. Man’s goodness must give way to the One Good.
Morality isn’t the measure of a man and if it be I would be meditating with the Buddhist’s in my town ….. nice moral people and much more so than those here that name Christ and go to church every Sunday. I do a lot of lovin in my community and very little evangelizing …… tis the season as it is also the time to share the Truth with those bound by the law and dead works of organized Christendom.
Having many times been around this mountain with those still hanging to the wrong tree and the wrong church system I will share an excerpt from a well used file made years ago as it also points to the season. This message has held truth for two thousand years but more so today as we come to the end of the “age of the wilderness church”
Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. The handwriting is on the wall. Thou art weighed in the balances and found wanting is the decree. Let us, therefore, go unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach. Let us flee to His mountain where we shall be taught of the Lord.
“Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father … But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:21-23.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:4,5
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself,
Rev 18:4-7
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen,
Rev 14:1-8
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
Jack, I have never heard of “age of the wilderness church” is almost over. Where is that taught?
Are you of the Grace faith of this website?
Your post to me reeks of fear. I don’t agree with your position or the way you present it. Sorry.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue, these last 2000 years can be called the “the Church Age”, the Pentecostal Age or a number of other descriptive terms. I use the “age of the wilderness church” because it is to me most descriptive of what we have witnessed and been part of. God we have made a mess of things, haven’t we. Plus it the term I use gives a hopeful view that the church will move and is moving into an “age of promise” where the world systems are overcome and peace reigns. That’s the external view that reflects what is taking place more importantly “within.”
Grace is made up of both “judgement” and “mercy” which is embraced in the Cross of Christ. The vain creatures that we all be must die to be resurrected. This is the death of self and yes it is fearful to experience at first. But it is there our vision of Christ and His love is truly known as we share His Cross. With this our view changes and we come to desire that all the corumption of this temporal world is laid to waste within us.
I don’t know what the “Grace faith” is to answer your other question. I pray it is not another way around the Cross that so many in the “UR” persuasions have come to espouse. Many are desiring to take their inheritance on this side of Jordan as the residue practices of the “wilderness church” once again sneak into another restorative move of the church. Such is the way of the carnal man seeking a comfortable religion.
“But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.” Heb. 11:16
God’s sons are sojourners, heaven bent and not here to gather and take our inheritance on this side of the river. Daniel knew to refuse the pleasant bread and Jesus became the bread worthy of those that followed Him and those that had nary a place to lay their head. Jesus is the pattern son. Like Him we must die to our selves and die to the things of this world to follow Him into Resurrection Life.
“So, likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.” Luke 14:33
Sue, with that I bid you, “Pick up thy cross pilgrim. We have left the leeks and garlic of Egypt and are moving to the other side of the river.”
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
I’ll take my leave today as I don’t want to dominate the comments section of Cliff’s blog. I know some might think I am looking for Heaven after I die but the Kingdom of God or Heaven (synonymous) is progressive and I enjoy and find greater rest each day in His Kingdom.
I also partake of this world on a deeper plane than I ever did before. Relationships are restored, healings manifest and greater hope is realized with each day. I take His love where ever I go and in the doing so I enjoy church everywhere, every day.
Lastly I believe we carry about the Death of the Lord so we may have the Life of the Lord. If we are ready to suffer with Him, we will reign with Him. Jesus said, as He is so are we in the world.
Friends do not be afraid to die; you will rise again.
Jack
Sue- I think many of us forget that we are all on the same journey, but at different points of that journey. My journey, which began over 4 years ago has been progressive. If four years ago I had been introduced to many of the things I hold dear at present, I would have been incredulous, and disbelieving of most. But the revelation of these things has been gradual, as I was ready to receive them. That’s just the way it was meant to be. You are ready to receive some things you hear here, and not ready to receive others.
“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.”
Jack,
It may be splitting hairs, but I feel that you are hanging onto a mentality of law. You quote Jesus a lot, and what was Jesus doing in most of what you quote?……Teaching God’s law and lifting the law up to a plane that no man could reach. At least that’s my take on what Jesus was doing in most of what we read about him in the NT writings.
Am I reading you wrong, sir?
Jason
Yes Jason, only Christ fulfils the law. The old man wants to work thus the Cross that slays him.
Who can love God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves?
“Not I, but Christ” Galatians 2:20
Don, I agree that we are all on the same journey, but we are all on different paths. Sometimes we travel along together for a while, then one of us comes to a path that seems more inviting, and we separate. The thing is, sometimes we encounter someone who is on a path that we’ve already traveled, and know that it is the harder way to go. It is full of obstacles and pitfalls. It is rocky and has many steep inclines. Is it fair to warn them?
Life is full of choices and the more freedom we experience in our journey, the less fearful we are to come to the aid of others. And why not? We have nothing to lose (because we have nothing – no ego to stroke, no reputation to uphold, no expectations to satisfy). We sacrifice ourselves for the good of others. We relish the thought of others having what we have, and sometimes boldly recommend a “change of mind” to someone on the less desirable path. We share what we’ve learned and experienced, and if it is helpful, then so be it. And if it is not, then so be it.
The problem with freedom is that it also allows us the liberty to make mistakes. It permits us to take the harder way, if we desire, and learn for ourselves. And that’s OK because life is all about learning. No matter which path we choose, we will learn something from it.
Freedom allows us to spend our lives sitting atop a stinking pile of manure if we like. And it also empowers us to come alongside someone and say “why are you sitting on that stinking pile of manure?” If they respond, “because I like it. It gives me something I can’t find anywhere else!” Then, who are we to argue? We offer our advice and move on, content that they will learn something good from their experience.
Jason wrote:
“Jack,
It may be splitting hairs, but I feel that you are hanging onto a mentality of law. You quote Jesus a lot, and what was Jesus doing in most of what you quote?……Teaching God’s law and lifting the law up to a plane that no man could reach. At least that’s my take on what Jesus was doing in most of what we read about him in the NT writings.”
My question is this….what is wrong with the Law? We are called to be slaves of righteousness not slaves of disobedience. I disagree with you Jason that Jesus was lifting the law up to a plane that no man could reach….but instead He was showing the Pharasee’s what the DIVINE LAW looks like in REALITY….the type/shadow coming to life in TECHNICOLOR….wheww….for Jesus was the LIVING, BREATHING, WALKING FEAST OF TABERNACLES in the flesh. As He is so are we in the earth….and there is coming a day that we too will BE His FULLNESS in the earth….but for now we have just the deposit…but WE SEE JESUS!
I just returned from a glorious trip with my family to share in the Lord’s feast of Tabernacles. Many within christendom no longer celebrate or keep any of the Lord’s feasts although it is a commandment to do so. I do not see these commandments as a burden but a BEAUTIFUL BLESSING. These are His holy appointments…seasons where He is WAITING for us to show up….amazing….how many within churchianity are always ‘looking’ for the latest visitation of the Lord, the latest revival…if only they knew that these “VISITATIONS” are still around today and point to the more glorious picture of the FULLNESS of Christ being given during the FALL FEASTS. Many would argue “but I can visit with Him anytime I want to b/c of what Jesus did for me” and I would agree and yet I would point out that these feasts symbolize HIM WAITING to meet with us…of Him showing up at His set appointed time. For we are His inheritance and He ours.
Jack makes some beautiful comments….and I especially loved what he shared about the root word of ‘church’. I for one am glad that there are brethren that show themselves to be an approved WORKMAN of the Word. How that is needed in this day and hour! I had heard that the word ‘church’ came from the word ‘circus’ but I never understood how that originated….thank you Jack for unfolding that deeper meaning to me.
I have been meditating on Psalm 119 this morning….what a glorious psalm about the beauty of the law. “I will meditate on Your precepts and have respect to Your ways (the paths of life marked out by Your law).
Universal Reconciliation is not a new concept but one that is marked out by the law…THE LAW OF JUBILEE.
Sonship is beautifully pictured in the keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles.
The 10 commandments are the picture of WHAT LOVE LOOKS LIKE AND DOES….for in keeping them we not only love God with all of our hearts but we love our neighbors as ourself. I could go on and on…for my Father has given us such deep wisdom that is made plain to us within His law that helps us with day to day living….(i.e. do not mix the seed….hello….isn’t it funny how organic farming has become so popular…and yet this has always been known to those that have ears to hear and to obey….ect….the list is endless).
I have had the LAW written upon my heart….and I could no longer leave the law as to leave my heart…for it is ONE within me….for CHRIST IS FULL-FILLED within.
Shalom.
Bruce- Very true… When I say the same journey, I am thinking of the final destination for the journey we are all on. How we get to the destination can sometimes be quite circuitous, and distinct (as individuals)
eliyah,
To each his own.
Jason
Writers Note:
The revelation of the personality of Jesus Christ is not in the words we write or in the interpretation and revelation of scripture. It is recognized in the progressively visible demonstration and potency of the healing power, inherent in HIS Life, that WE Live. The reuniting and restoration of the Spirit within, allows us to exhibit more and more of His glory as we learn how to respond to the senses of the Spirit.
Let us realize that what we write today, may be upgraded in His infinite wisdom, by tomorrow.
As we view the various facets of the “Diamond of Truth” from different perspectives, we begin to see its inner brilliance burst forth exponentially, through the many polished aspects of its skillful design.
If we, by lack of vision or by separation, see dimly and presume only one facet as the whole, we miss the pulsating fire of the complete and perfect jewel. Therefore, to gain God’s understanding, we must dare to abandon ourselves to Him, as we allow Him to change us from within. This can be hazardous to a stagnant belief system.
Wes
WELL SAID WES.
THE SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS. WE DON’T NEED THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE IS JUST A BOOK WRITTEN BY MAN. WHY THE NEED TO WORSHIP THE BIBLE AND ITS SCRIPTURES. WHY NOT JUST TRUST YOURSELF?
Do you guys realize that much of what is being said here means that a person is basically just on his own? There is no separate being that is God? Jesus Christ was just another man, perhaps a little more enlightened than most of us, but not really God’s own Son in any kind of special way? If that is what you believe, then you and I don’t have much common ground, it seems. This is way beyond whether to be involved in organized religion. It’s whether you actually believe in God or not.
Jesus was God come in the flesh. Jesus is God dwelling in my heart by His Spirit. “God is sovereign and free will but a vain illusion man holds onto until the Cross has it’s way in his or her life.
It’s all about Jesus ………. and Jesus is the Father in the realm of space and time. These things are revealed through much time spent at Jesus feet away from the crowds and far from man.
“There is no separate being that is God”
when I awakened to that understanding my whole concept/mindset of God collapsed like a house of cards, and I had no other choice but to move on, in the process..
-I realized not one person is on their own and all life is connected as a whole, separate in form, but not in essence, we just don’t always see it and we think we are separate from others or some separate diety we refer to as God…
-I realized Jesus was not just another man but not some reincarnated being from the cosmos either, coming “down”? to rescue, but one who lived a full humanity and pointed to realm within…
-I realized fundamentalism/literalism have done more to keep my eyes closed to a living reality in God(Spirit) than I could have ever thought imaginable, at best when you peel the layers back and burn off all the chaff you just might discover some treasure, meaning and substance well beyond taking things literally, a treasure that remained unseen as I looked through the lenses of fundamentalism/literalism.
Jack wrote:
“Morality isn’t the measure of a man and if it be I would be meditating with the Buddhist’s in my town ….. ”
maybe not, but what is the good of a man who does not contribute to and make this world a better place?
Also what would be wrong in meditating with a Buddhist? Is not the kingdom within him the same as the kingdom within you? Is our faith more about being right or is it about Being? As if some how we are right in the first place? Can we see this is the problem with “beliefs” in the first place? Are we after a spirit filled life or a belief based life?
The goodness of the ego is as filthy rags, that is a goodness that is self serving, for the sake/survival of ego-false self (old man Paul called it),
we go to so much effort in separating mans goodness from Gods goodness as if true goodness from any man is anything but Gods goodness…
there is my ramble for today
Marco
Connie- God is the I AM. He is “being” itself. He is not “out there” separate from us. He is energy. He is source. There is nothing that is NOT him. Every particle that has been created is a part of God. Jesus had a father-consciousness that allowed him to be in closer relationship to our Source (he called him father because he IS) than anyone that I have ever studied about. Is he unique as you say. I would agree that he is in one sense of the word. He is not like any other religious figure, he is unique. But we are ALL unique. But in the popular CHristian usage, the uniqueness of Jesus is most commonly tied to the notion that he is the uniquely and exclusively true revelation of God. It is this meaning that I would have to disagree with. He is God’s son as we are all God’s sons. We are one in the same, from the same source, made of the same stuff (energy). He said he longs for all of us to be (realize that) we are one. When Jesus said “I and the father are one”, that IMO is what he meant. I long for the day when our “beliefs” about God and about Jesus will not get in the way of our following Jesus’ injunctions to “love God with all our hearts…. and to love our neighbors as ourselves.
My, this is bizzare.
Is this which Marco and Don R share given credence by this site? Is this the common fare and an accepted message here on BoldGrace?
If that be the case Connie is of right thinking in her last post as that which Marco and Don write is just plain ol’ blasphemous New Age riff-raff. I am surprised these two didn’t end their messages with “Nemanste” or “Allahu Akbar.”
Connie….
I give Jesus the PRE-EMINENCE in all things….it was Him alone that was slain from the foundation of the earth and that bled and died on the cross for the salvation of ALL men….no one else paid that price and this is why He is so worthy of all praise and glory.
Anyone that would put themselves on the same par or equal footing of Jesus has fornicated with the Man of Lawlessness….plain and simple.
In Him is LIFE and LIGHT….He is the Word made flesh and is the seed within…and as we are renewed by His Word ( the letter that is quickened by the Breath of the Spirit) we are changed into His image from glory to glory and faith to faith…we die to self and He is resurrected within…until we BECOME one with Him…but it takes 2 to become ONE.
No! Marco the kingdom that is within the buddist is not the same as the kingdom that is within those that have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God’s dearly loved Son.
I love all men…for I am of my Father and have been called to a ministry of reconciliation and LIFE and so I do not condemn the buddist and eventually the buddist too will be saved…each man in his own order. I speak the truth forth plainly & in so doing I commend myself to God and men.
It doesn’t matter one squat to me whether you like what I have said or not…but what matters is that my Father approves of what I speak…and I only speak that which my Father says.
Connie….bottom line….Sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus…for in so doing you choose the better part. As far as the Harlot system….scripture is clear…”come out of her my people so that you will not partake of her plagues’….May His grace be given to you to follow and obey Him.
Shalom.
TO ALL:
What this site is about is a place where all are welcome. It does not mean all will be in agreement. I have never in my 56 years seen any group of people agree in total on any particular message or idea. What we strive to present here is very simple. Those of us who started this site believe that God (what ever that might mean to you) loves us ALL UNCONDITIONALLY and that nothing we can do or believe will ever change that. Yes, we do reject other messages out there that have conditions to a relationship with God. And yes we do reject the traditional churches message because it is full of CONDITIONS, but we still welcome and accept the people who choose to go or not go to church. We NEVER condemn them and yet we are often condemned as many openly do that in their comments. We may disagree but there is a big difference between that and condemning others.
Peace,
Cliff
Thinking about the “ministry of reconciliation”… I used to think that it was our duty to go around compelling people to reconcile with God, lest they be tormented forever. I used fear tactics and threatened condemnation to those who did not (or would not) take the necessary steps to “get right” with God. Dear Lord, I regret that deeply.
Now, it is my joy to let people know that, because of Christ, they ARE reconciled to the Father. I love to tell them that whether they believe it or not, they ARE reconciled to God. And if they can wrap their minds around that, they can begin to enjoy a life of liberty in an abundance of pure love.
Sadly, freedom in Christ is only for the free, and many are not ready to trust Jesus that much. They are afraid to connect with the Christ who resides in all of us for fear of… well, God! Why? Because they don’t know God. They don’t understand the message of the Cross, and the righteousness it brought to all mankind.
Sad indeed… but oh for joy, the end will bring victory to all! I am convinced with all my heart and mind that God’s grace is that BOLD! But, I can’t convince ANYBODY of ANYTHING. It has to come from within you. Deep inside all of us is the Word of God, patiently waiting for us to awaken to His incredible love. We will all realize it at some point. Some sooner, some later, but all will. Look forward to the day when your burdens are lifted and your heart is set free from the terroristic fear that has been slapped on us along the way by religion, culture, society, and family. The day is coming. Rejoice in knowing that, while you journey toward the revelation of the Kingdom!
I guess what still bothers me is that one of the founders of BoldGrace states that “we don’t need the Bible” and “why not just trust yourself?” Which is, as Jack said, basically plain ole New Age riff-raff. As my dad used to say (quoting someone else, I’m sure), “A man wrapped up in himself makes a mighty small package.”
We don’t condemn men’s souls to hell but Jesus had some strong words for the apostates of His time. He spoke by righteous judgement to the foul spirits that drove such men. We are told to practice the same.
Cliff what you are practicing is the “New Tolerance” and it goes hand in hand with the New Age philosophies. I will ask you to remove “JACKSON HOLE & CHRIST” from your blog roll as I care not to be associated with such practices. Inclusion is as wide as the Cross of Christ and although vain men think they can find another way around that Tree it always ends poorly and is most often sorely remedied in another aion.
Jack
Connie, The Word existed long before the bible. And The Word is fully capable of revealing itself through any means it deems necessary. Open your heart and your mind, and try to see how limited our understanding is. Deep within yourself is a power so incredible, and so pure, it can open the universe to you. Even the bible says, “Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory”.
I love this line from revelation:
Then:
And what does Moses represent? The LAW – the requirements, the obligations, the rules, the expectations… just as today, it is THIS that accuses God’s creation.
Dear friends, I am not here to place any requirement of belief on you. I am only here to confirm to those who are hearing the voice of God from within that they are hearing correctly. God is in you. You can trust him. He loves you deeply and will never forsake you, no matter what.
I have complied with your request to remove your link, Jack.
I hope that someday we can be friends. It saddens me that your religion is more important than other human beings. But, that’s OK. You are always welcome here even though we may disagree. Maybe someday you’ll convince us to convert back to your view. Who knows? But, I certainly understand why you wouldn’t want to associate with people who don’t believe correctly. Correct belief is more important than love.
May you live well!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!
Peace
Geo
Jack, I’m sorry you feel the need to label me. I have studied the bible my entire adult life and it has never led me to judge the way you have judged me. Regardless the Christ in my still salutes the Christ in you and you will always be welcome here even if you choose to be harsh in your comments.
Bruce, Yes, I know the Word existed long before the Bible. And how do I know that? I learned it from the book of John in the Bible.
I also know that I have a very limited understanding of God, as He is infinite and I am not. I believe in the indwelling of the Spirit, as Jesus Himself taught that clearly, also recorded in the book of John. I know that He will never forsake me, as that is in the book of Hebrews. I would not even know who Jesus Christ is were it not for the Bible. So, I am not willing to cast the Bible aside as if it is of no importance.
As for the statement: “I am only here to confirm to those who are hearing the voice of God from within that they are hearing correctly.” How could you possibly know that everyone who reads those words is hearing correctly the voice of God from within?! I have personally known many people through the years who thought they were acting on the voice of God, and later realized they were only acting on what they THOUGHT was the voice of God and actually it was their own misguided ideas and much harm resulted from their actions.
Okay, now I think I need to let all this go. And spend some quality time relaxing with Barney, my laid-back Basset Hound.
Cliff, You said to Connie, “you are a rare and wonderful christian” which implies you know the hearts of all christians and have the right to pass judgement. On top of that you then shroud her in evil because she attends a church you believe teaches a wrong message. Sounds like condemnation to me. You may have been in both camps but you have not been in all camps. Turning the tables, would you let one from a tradional belief preach from your pulpit in your church building AND not say anything about what they preached? When any of us goes out into the world to a restaurant or theater or any other building that houses people we are in the company of all beliefs, so how is it that a “church” building is any different? According to you they too would be shrouded in evil and you would not have anyplace to go. It also seems that your relatives or good friends or those that agree with you get your praise. You have answered a few ?’s for me and told me I have a right to disagree but I get your silence when it comes to my thoughts and no comment when I disagree. Sounds like how you say you were treated by the churches. Oh, I don’t want your praise but sometimes the silence is deafening. From what I have read Connie just wants to have her say and the same respect for her choices that you seem to seek from churches. I have learned from you both good things and some I discard and I like the idea of a free forum but sometimes it does not feel free. Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue, I apologize if you think I have been silent to you. I rembember distincly writing an entire post about some of your questions and other questions you have asked I felt like were answered by others. As far as condemning any person, you will not find that in any of my posts or comments. I happen to know Connie very well and if I knew you I am sure I would be able to make the same comment. Connie knows that I disagree with her and she also knows just as much how much I love her. As I have said over and over and will say once again the difference between how I disagree and how most christians disagree:
When I disagree I still accept fully the person I am disagreeing with as my brother or sisteer and I know they are completely loved by God just as I am.
When most christians disagree with me they reject me, disfellowship me, label me, accuse me, and condemn me to HELL.
I think any reasonable person can see the difference in the approach I take and the approach most christians take.
As for Connie, I called her rare because she is one of a handful of traditional chrisitians who can disagree with me and still accepts me not only as her cousin but as her brother. Yes, she is quite rare.
Peace,
Cliff
LOL Oh my, Cliff and Bruce.
I am one that came into the message of “Universal Reconciliation and God All In All” a quarter century ago. Over the years I have seen all the perversions that have tried to attach themselves to this glorious message.
There were “the sweet soul-poisoners that spoke smooth things” of Jeremiah’s day. Every generation has them. These have been appointed to try those that would be found as called, chosen and faithful sons. Understanding your purpose I can say I love you while I also say to the spirits that move you, “Adios, serpentinas.”
We’ll get together maybe in the next age with Jesus at the head of table.
Jack
PS and you might tell Mike Williams to quit merchandising and Bishop Pearson to rid himself of the title and Roman collar. It doesn’t take much discernment to spot the perversion. Yeah let’s have meeting! LOL
I have never known a finer person then Mike Williams. I don’t know Bishop Pearson. As far as telling them how to live their lives I would not do that any more then I would tell you how to live yours. It is fair for you to judge our message here at boldgrace but it is on your conscience when you judge us personally to have satanic spirits that are guiding us. It must be enlighting to know so much about our motives.
“It must be enlighting to know so much about our motives.”
No Cliff it often breaks my heart
And most salesmen such as Mike Williams are usually thought of as the nicest of guys. You don’t peddle the Word as this man does and only a deceitful spirit will defend such!
But hey “we don’t judge” ……… that’s the catch all with you guys.
God help the little ones that are looking for Jesus. Can’t show them the real Jesus from the counterfeits lest you be accused of judging. Oh my friend, I know this foul game and it doen’t take long to spot the players.
Shame on you guys. You are so new to this message you don’t know who’s coming or going as you allow every foul thing imaginable to stand beside Jesus!
Jack
Funny, I don’t think I could picture Jesus at the “head of the table”. I know you only meant that figuratively, Jack. But, as I envisioned that scenario, I can’t help but think that Jesus would seat himself at the least visible, most unwanted seat at the table. Maybe I’m all mixed up, but that’s the way I see it.
It has always amazed me how some see Jesus as the demanding master, ready to turn away from anyone who didn’t bow down to him. I guess I used to think of him that way. That’s what religion taught me. But at some point, I must have had a change of heart. The Jesus I now know is a warm, kind, humble, gentle, lover of souls… all souls… and one who is filled with a perfect peace and an unexplicable joy.
Jack, I’m not new to this message. I have stood my ground for over 35 years and I’m not a novice when it comes to the bible. Might I ask if you have ever talked with Mike Williams? Do you know his heart? Do you know his struggles? Do you know what he has given up in order to preach the message of grace and peace? Well, I do, and I also know you speak out of ignorance when you slander him and I for one will not allow that without giving my two cents about who Mike is. He is a gentle giant that has suffered more then most humans ever think of and yet he still gives all he has to tell the story of the Perfect Love Of Jesus.
I would encourage anyone to listen to Mike’s audios and make their own judgement as to what he teaches and why. You can click on “AUDIO” at the top of the screen and listen to some of his lessons for FREE.
Jack,
Wish you the best and I wish you weren’t so mad.
Connie said, ” guess what still bothers me is that one of the founders of BoldGrace states that “we don’t need the Bible” and “why not just trust yourself?”
I am Mindy “a girl” who posted this comment. I wish I could say I was a founder, but I am someone who acknowledged Grace on my own and choose to share my thoughts. We all are not going to agree on everything and when I post or comment I am ONLY speaking for myself. This is not a cult, an organization, a church or a freak show. It is a place where people get together because of this acknowledgment of Grace and choose to share their thoughts and experiences. You do want you want with my information, but why let it “bother” you soo much?
I like that, Mindy. And you touched on something that I see so often in these conversations…
An angry God creates angry people.
Sorry Mindy, from comments that had been made in the past, I thought you were one of the group who started this site. And I was under the impression that one of the purposes of this site is to let people know about the grace that is to be found in a relationship with Jesus Christ. So, it was confusing when I read that someone I thought was a part of that group was so dismissive of the Bible, which is where we find the details of His life and message. Please accept my apology for the confusion.
I honestly have no hard feelings toward anyone on this site with whom I may disagree. Opinions are just that to me and have nothing to do with whether we can be in relationship with each other. That is what I saw modelled growing up, and seems very natural to me. I sometimes forget it’s not that way for everyone.
Funny, I don’t think I could picture Jesus at the “head of the table”. I know you only meant that figuratively, Jack. But, as I envisioned that scenario, I can’t help but think that Jesus would seat himself at the least visible, most unwanted seat at the table. Maybe I’m all mixed up, but that’s the way I see it.
It has always amazed me how some see Jesus as the demanding master, ready to turn away from anyone who didn’t bow down to him. I guess I used to think of him that way. That’s what religion taught me. But at some point, I must have had a change of heart. The Jesus I now know is a warm, kind, humble, gentle, lover of souls… all souls… and one who is filled with a perfect peace and an unexplicable joy.
No Bruce, Jesus is the head and there is the beginnings of your wayward philosophy. If you were to run a word search of “Arnion” on my blog you would find I write much on “Jesus, the little lambkin slain” and how in service Christ reigns. I always lift Jesus above all, thus He will ever sit at the head of the table. Jesus also wasn’t a pantywaist and was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. Pal I know the deceitful games you play, twisting and turning to accommodate your blasphemous liberality. I also believe Jesus wouldn’t have minced words with you either. He sure didn’t like the phonies.
And Cliff by the way never in all my years have I ever charged or even asked for a donation as I shared the Word. If there is any thing people are waking up to it is the merchandising that always accompanies the poison. You throw Mike Williams up on your site you throw up one Jesus would have thrown out of the temple! And don’t tell me about the cost this man has paid. If he had truly known the cost he would never charge.
There are a few at my site that know what I have been through and still go through to publish the message of Christ. They wept when they found out. So don’t go tellin me about this sweet guy that sells Jesus!
You guys will go to any length and legitimize anything to keep from the Cross. I know you. I know your ways. I have spent months amongst the New Age/New Tolerance groups.
Not angry …. not mad ………. because as I said before you guys are purposed by God to try the souls of the faithful. Sometimes he calls me into places like this to identify the wolves and now I believe my work is done here. This has been an easy one, as you have readily identified yourselves.
Good evening,
Jack
As I have watched things unfold in this blog, I do not see it as negative, I just see His Bold Grace upon Grace upon Grace. This is a rich sight, Love in and through us is truly the manifestation of God. Love thinks no evil, because it see’s no evil. We see through Doves eyes, not ignorant but redeemed. Single eyed we see the Body(All Humanity) full of Light. So simple folks.
Love Jeff.
Jack Wrote:
Not angry …. not mad ………. because as I said before you guys are purposed by God to try the souls of the faithful
Jack,
WOW! There was and will only EVER be ONE who WAS and IS Faithful!
And you AIN’T IT! Jesus was the only one who was EVER faithful! It is His Faith that cleanses and made all pure not yours mine or anyone elses.
Jack Wrote:
Sometimes he calls me into places like this to identify the wolves and now I believe my work is done here
SINCE YOUR WORK IS DONE HERE WE WILL TRUST YOU WILL NOT COMMENT ANY LONGER? OR DID YOU LIE TO US WITH THAT STATEMENT? Thus making you the “so called” wolf! I know you will answer because you can’t resist. I would say we are going to miss you here but I know again you will be back and we can talk more when you return.
Until your return
Peace and Goodbye
Geo
Is it safe to come out yet?
For the record, I never said that Jesus wasn’t the head, I said I didn’t see him as taking a seat at the head of the table. He saw himself as a servant to all, and even stated that the one “who was least, would be first”. That is so incredibly humbling to me. It is an attitude of love that draws me in. Thank God I no longer have to force myself to love a God who demands it through penalty of eternal punishment (for not believing correctly). Instead, he draws me to himself through a most amazing love.
On another note, I have never liked it when people ask for money to share the word. But, I understand Mike Williams motivations. Here is a guy who has an incredible message to share, and a wonderful way of sharing it. People from all over the country ask Mike to come teach them what he knows, and Mike loves to meet those requests. But he is not a rich man, and is not able to fund these trips on his own. The groups requesting him try to help him with his expenses, but sometimes fall short. So Mike solicits funds from his friends to help with those travels. I can accept that. I know Mike. I have spent time with him… eaten with him… traveled with him… heard him teach… and sat with him in small settings to simply talk. And I can tell you that his grip on the message of the gospel of Christ is like none I’ve ever seen. He speaks with love and clarity, and from a position of learning and first-hand experience.
Maybe sought-after teachers like Jack are independently wealthy and can meet the nationwide requests for their presence with their own funds, but I know if I was ever asked to visit a distant place, I would have to ask for help. It’s simple economics. I’m not a rich man.
Yes Jeff, isn’t amazing how our words reveal our hearts? And what a revealing contrast of hearts we see as we read these interactions. I guess it’s true when they say that “whoever God is to us, is what we become to others.” If our God is an angry taskmaster, full of demands and requirements, expecting perfection, and hard to please… then we will be too. But if our God is pure love, full of acceptance and inclusion… then we will be also.
And yes, Julia. Like the Kingdom, this is a safe place. Come on in, the water’s fine! It will hold you up effortlessly, and soak you with wonderful peace!
Jack…your unnecessary judgments are harsh, but they are unleashed and they are yours. You come across very angry and if you only really knew all of us here you might not be so judgmental.
I feel the need to have to say this to anyone out there reading our posts and comments. If you are angered by what we feel and say then why hang around for more? I can understand hanging around due to an interest you might have in what we feel and say, but if you are truly angered by these words then I would understand why you would feel the need to go.
When I was going to the Churches I was never truly happy and most of the time angered by what I was hearing so I made the choice to leave. It wasn’t easy, but I knew in my heart it wasn’t right for me. It was the best choice I ever made. Through that choice I found Grace and I am happy. I am growing more and more everyday. My only wish is for everyone to feel this way. Don’t be mad and scared. Be happy and confident!
Mindy,
“Jack” is not scared….hardly. No, the Lord’s beloved John walks as Yahshua walked and has zeal for Father’s house (the holy temples not made with hands) and with this same zeal that Yahshua had he is FIERCE in His love for the children of Yahweh to be protected from anything that would defile, corrupt, or molest them.
It is said by many psychologist’s that pedophiles really ‘love’ children and yet any GOOD and PROTECTIVE parent would never let such a foul beast into their child’s bedroom. Those who have written ‘Love thinks no evil, because it see’s no evil’ are naive at best and perverted at worst and have not a thorough understanding of the FULL COUNSEL of Yah’s word.
In the very first chpt. of Genesis Yahweh separated the LIGHT from the DARKNESS and why did he do this? To make a distinction between the two. He then goes on to make other distinctions including…
“And let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light upon the earth. And it was so.
And God made the two great lights–the greater light (the sun) to rule the day and the lesser light (the moon) to rule the night. He also made the stars.
And God set them in the expanse of the heavens to give light upon the earth,
To rule over the day and over the night, and to separate the light from the darkness. And God saw that it was good (fitting, pleasant) and He approved it” (Gen 1:15-18)
The Lord sent to this site His beloved star that brought light to distinguish between the light and the darkness.
My prayer is that all will take heed to the instruction that the Lord’s prophet has mightily shared.
We are to know no man after the flesh only after the Spirit and it is by the Spirit within that will bare witness with what has been given.
Shalom.
. . . . . For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he:”Eat and Drink!” saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee. . . . . . .
Proverbs 23
Wes
Eliyah,
Who said Jack was scared?
Eliyah says, “Those who have written Love thinks no evil, because it see’s no evil’ are naive at best and perverted at worst and have not a thorough understanding of the FULL COUNSEL of Yah’s word.”
I do see and think evil because I am human, But I believe God (or what I think you are referring to as Yah) sees perfection in all of us. I believe we are all apart of each other. I believe that God wrote the scriptures on our hearts so I don’t LIVE by the words of religion or even by the bible. They may help guide me, but ultimately my heart is what I follow.
May we all be as “naive” as a child…
I’ve been caught by what you all have been saying on this blog…..
At first I was thrilled to find a place to peaceably discuss where
The Lord has also been leading me this past 16 years…..I spent about a year
Listening to tapes by a man by the name of Gary Sigler, who taught Jesus as the savior of the whole world…….in the beginning
He brought much light I read his booklets ordered his tapes. Then after my brother
Donated a large amount to his ministry, Gary got in touch with him personally and
When in Oregon, called and invited him to dinner…
Having been in the ministry some signs cause suspicion/discernment…….so I hoped it would just be a time of sharing when they got together……but it was not, it was a time of assessing my brother’s financial status and letting him know what his needs were……..
Almost 4 years from that time I found another blogsite had been started by Sigler starting with an open letter to Oprah and his defense of her beliefs…….I spent months, daily
On his website and watched incredulously as they moved from Jesus and the way of
The cross to believing themselves to be divine………and then into any practices
They deemed worthwhile in their endeavor to they themselves becoming God’s. Shortly they began to practice every abomination of the spiritual counterfeit out there. Their conversations in the beginning seem so much like several of yours…….
I also walk in the liberty of believing hat all men will be reconciled……I knew Carlton Pearson in my Word of Faith days……I understand the price he has paid for his newfound beliefs. I have also been saddened by what I consider a dangerous alliance with the broad way. I know that is vague and I won’t go into any particulars as I am still praying that the outcome for our precious brother will not be delusion and betrayal of our Lord…..but then we have all had our times caught in deception……..I just pray I will never again partake of diminishing Christ and exalting myself…….nor ever put a price on what has been freely
Given……and if the financial way to take the message is not met……..then it is probably not time for a particular vessel to take it……..God is not a pauper and he can fund and
Pay for what he sends us to do without marketing……..I mean could he be that big,
Are there other ways he plans to get his sons and daughters heard beside, forming
A base of supporters, gathering together to preach our newest truth…….should
We look to him for what is next and how it will be spread? Will we always revert
To doing it what we believe he wants in our timing or will we wait and let him finish
The he must increase and I must decrease?
I do call you my brother’s and sister’s and am thankful that we are coming to the light.
I know there is a way which seemth right but the end is destruction……wood, hay, stubble…..and only he can lead us to our individual cross and give us the grace to
stay the course without returning to the garlic and leeks…..we are to come out of “her”
and all her ways and not substitute any of the ways of Egypt to fill the void…..
Love,
Joian
Mindy,
Did you not say…”Don’t be mad and scared. Be happy and confident”….were you not referring to Jack?
Mindy, you state…”but ultimately my heart is what I follow.”….scripture teaches us that the heart is deceitful above ALL things….all means all….even more deceitful than the devil…so I would encourage you to lean not upon your heart but the one who created your heart…for in Him alone is hidden all the riches and wisdom.
I loved what Joian wrote. Truly the Spirit of Wisdom is voiced within her.
Lastly, I want to address one thing that Bruce wrote.
“Joh 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father; there is one accusing you, Moses, in whom you have hoped.
And what does Moses represent? The LAW – the requirements, the obligations, the rules, the expectations… just as today, it is THIS that accuses God’s creation.”
***********************
Jesus himself said that He did not come to ABOLISH the law but to bring it to its fullness…to REVEAL what the type/shadow looked like in reality. What does the Sabbath look like….Jesus. For in Him dwelt the fullness of the Godhead….he didn’t need to work b/c He had the capablity to provide for His every need within. He was the living Feast of Tabernacles in the flesh. He was the fulfillment of the Law of Redemption. He was the LIVING STONE TABLETS OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS. On and on….and as He is so are we in the earth.
WHEWW….I give you PRAISE LORD….all GLORY and HONOR belong to your most HOLY name!!! Clap, clap, clap!!!
Those who think that Grace means to throw away the law b/c they now have freedom to become lawless have been bitten by the serpent himself…. and have loved SELF more than Jesus. 1 John 3:4 says that ’sin is lawlessness’.
For did not Jesus say “If you love me you will keep my commandments.” He also says that those that teach others to obey His commandments will be great in the Kingdom and those that TEACH others to not obey His commandments will be least in the kingdom. Notice…there will be people in the kingdom that will be least….and why??….b/c they taught others to not obey. Obedience/Lawlessness is what the Lord said would be prevalent in the last days…and the message of ‘New Tolerance’/New Age is nothing more than the MAN OF LAWLESSNESS revealed. Remember the words of Jesus…that in the last days many will come to him and say “Lord, Lord….” but He will say ….”depart from me you who practice lawlessness (greek anomia).”(matt 7:21-23)
I keep Father’s commandments for 4 main reasons although there are many other reasons too.
1.) It is right. It is what my Lord says to do to show Him how much I love him.
2.) I am called to walk as Yahshua walked and how did Yahshua walk? By keeping the commandments…for He was the Lawgiver. The Jews could not point out one area where Jesus failed to be the Messiah….He not only kept the law perfectly but also fulfilled so many other prophecies.
3.) I love the House of Judah. I will not be a stumbling stone to my brothers. Christianity has for TOO LONG been that to them b/c they see christians as LAWLESS Lawbreakers…and rightly so….and b/c of this they have determined that the christian messiah is a not the real messiah for his disciples do not walk in holiness, obedience, separation, consecration ect….as seen by the distinction of keeping the ways of Yahweh.
4.)As a concrete witness for my children, family, friends, and the world. Those that are of the elect are called to make a distinction between the Holy and the common…between the clean and the unclean. There is a reason for all of this b/c we are spirit beings living in an earthly body…and this is why we walk these symbols out on earth as they are being made real within our heavens.
How does one even know that you are a believer in Christ Jesus….not just by your confession but by your walk of obedience…by your love….and by your fruit….it is all of these COMBINED that prove who you are.
My love goes out to all of you here….to mindy, bruce, wes, cliff, geo, jason, and all others that read here….for He loves each of you tenderly and mightily….and He also is the same yesterday, today and forever and is calling us all to pick up our crosses, die to self, walk in obedience…and I realize that it is only by HIS GRACE given that any of us can do that….for He is the one that gives us a willing heart to obey….and why….to show Him our love in return….isn’t He wonderful?
Yes He is.
Shalom to you.
eliyah,
No, I was not referring to Jack and eliyah, my heart is not deceitful and I know this. Noone will ever really know my heart except for God. The God I know says to me that I am perfect in his eyes and their is nothing I can do to change his love for me. That doesn’t mean that I may not make decisions that will have consequences “I” will have to face, but they are mine to face and God will be with me while I learn from them. I am not here for the world to see as a Christian. I am here for the world to see as Mindy a woman, daughter, grandaughter, wife, sister, cousin, etc…a soul made of perfection in the eyes of God. I don’t have to prove anything to anyone. I am enjoying life by loving my daughter, my husband, my family and learning to love while loving to live.
eliyah, thank you for your love. Mine goes out to you as well.
Be peaceful…always
Joian,
I do believe God is in my heart. I believe he left the answers for me there as well. Do I believe I am God or am I starting to believe I am God? No. I will never be God. I am human. I have to face the ups and downs, the trials and tribulations of this world everyday. Only God could get through those days without feeling human. My answers are for me and me only. The people here at Boldgrace are good, loving and kind people who have found Grace. Noone here would ever claim to be better then someone else. We just have a passion for love and Grace.
My, a lot has taken place since yesterday! I have obviously been accused of being a blasphemous, new age heretic. Man, I didn’t mean to offend anyone. Just stating my own thoughts on the subject. I kinda feel like Julia; “Is it safe to come out yet?” Guess this type of thing is gonna happen from time to time as long as someone is still determined to tell people how to think and judge them for what they’re thinking. Just so all commenters know, I love the guys here at Bold Grace!
And we LOVE YOU too Don!
on another note it is sad when the unbelievers like jack and some others do not see that jesus is in all to all and through all. someone quoted the passage earlier that jesus came not to end the law but to fulfill it. jesus also said in that passage he came to fulfill all the prophets and the psalms also. andthat not one jot or tittle would pass from the law until all things were fulfilled. wouldnt that mean if we stopped observing one law say the sacrificing of animals then EVERYRING IS FINISHED?
And if Jesus was the author (the beginner) of faith and the finisher (end of faith requirement) Then we are truly free.
Peace
Geo
Jack can anybody really stop the love and mercy of Jesus Christ.This website tells of His love and mercy that never ends that is the only thing that will can I persons heart and mind.
He love and mercy is much greater then we can even think.Paul said in 1Corth. 13 that His love ALWAYS WINS OVER EVERYTHING.
Love in Christ Dan
I have been reading with interest over the past several days and it is really interesting to see how many different directions there are that different people approach the meaning of what Jesus did at the cross and also how we are now to live, and that of course is governed by how we perceive the whole aspect of the cross and what actually happened there.
When it comes to a lot of the comments, or should I say attacks by Jack, it is very disturbing to say the least. At the same time I have to look at him the same way I look at others and that of course is through the eyes and love of God. He obviously thinks he is some type of prophet called to bring correction to those that have strayed away from what he believes to be truth. Some of his words are pretty severe and he obviously he believes he can bring correction to those on this site that have “stayed” and are following demonic activity.
I do agree with some of the things he has said though and one being that it appears that some that comment here seem to believe we are deity and some even could make you think they don’t even believe there is a God or higher power if you wish, and that we are that “being”, whatever that may be. As I have stated before, I have had problems understanding most of what Marco comments here but as the days go on I seem to be getting more of an understanding of the meaning behind his comments and, unless I am totally in error here, I read into his comments that he does not believe there is a God and we are “that being”.
I have to say I agree with Jack on this point when he says that this type of belief appears to be condoned on this site without any of the administrators even challenging this type of belief. Again I want to say that I fully respect the beliefs of others as they are as much entitled to believe what they please. When we are a group of people that believe in God, the death burial and resurrection of Jesus, that He died for our sins, that He is very much alive today etc etc, and someone comes along and presents beliefs that are totally foreign to this belief, should not something be said to state that this type of belief is not acceptable on this site as it is a site with a firm belief in God and what Jesus has done on the cross??
I don’t normally comment here or anywhere but felt compelled to do so this evening as a lot of attacks have gone back and forth here over the past few days. I am at peace with the Lord and my life and eternity as I believe Jesus died for all. I guess what I am trying to say is that whatever the purpose of this site is, it should be something that is upheld and that when someone comes on here and makes comments contrary to what the basic beliefs of this site are, then they should be told such.
I will just lay back again and read and try to make sense of what is transpiring here. Hopefully no one will have been offended by some of the comments but when I read over again some of the things said, I don’t know how that can be.
Cliff, It was good of you but there is no need for an apology. If I had known the understanding you and Connie have, I would not have intruded into your posts. I now understand you meant it is rare for you to have a christian that knows your views and still loves you and does not condemn you to hell. A hell they have yet to understand. Anyway it is not my business between you and Connie.
I know I have had many ?’s and I thank you for your kind answers. I just finished reading Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by Spong and now have a different view even of many of my ?’s. Some cease to need an answer. I’m sure I will read this book many times. It was a real “WOW” read.
Again I am sorry for the intrusion. Keep teaching!
Because he first loved us – Sue
Dan, love comes in both the form of “judgement” and “mercy.” There is a sloppy agape of the New Tolerance creed that is being practiced and promoted here and it finds it’s origin in the uncleansed and lustful soul of carnal man.
ie. Don said in an earlier post:
________________
“But in the popular CHristian usage, the uniqueness of Jesus is most commonly tied to the notion that he is the uniquely and exclusively true revelation of God. It is this meaning that I would have to disagree with. He is God’s son as we are all God’s sons. We are one in the same, from the same source, made of the same stuff (energy).’ (Don)
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Sloppy agape which the spiritual pedophile practices will say to Don’s message I quoted above, “child of God that is not perversion as God is in Don’s message. He is in everything, child. Everything is good. There is nothing unclean”
In contrast the one filled with the True Spirit of God that cares for God’s offspring will say to the child of God concerning Don’s message:
“Don’s view is wrong. Jesus is the revelation of God in the world. He is the unique Son of God and if one is to be a son it will be by the indwelling Spirit of the One and Only Son of God that overcomes sin, Satan and the world. You are being made one of the sons but know this child of God, there is only One Son and by His appropriated life are other sons made. Little one, now hear this. There are many that will come lowering the position of the Son of God Jesus that they may elevate themselves. This is because they have a selfish and self promoting spirit. Child, can you sense this spirit in the words of Don. That is the spirit that has come to rape and ruin your poor soul should you allow him to entice you to believe Jesus is not uniquely the Son and the perfect expression of God That my child is the pedophile spirit that causes a man to think he is loving you while instead he is perversely laying ruin to you that his lust may be fulfilled. Child of God those that care for you wear the righteous robes of Christ Jesus and they judge righteous judgement. You will learn to sense that in you spirit. You will also learn to recognized the predators wearing spiritual trench coats. These are those that will tell you that there is nothing bad in this world. God bless you, little one. I’ll be praying for you and if I see danger I will do my best to point it out to you.”
Love comes in the form of “judgement given” and when you love God’s children you will point out the spirits that come as angels of light to rape and ruin their souls.
Praise God for Eliyah’s earlier message on ‘pedophilia’ ………. that was ordained of God. She cares for the little ones as do I.
You do not allow every foul spirit into your house. And yes Geo, I love Don also. I just don’t want him near children.
Jack
Good grief, Jack. It must be hard going through life so full of yourself. I know there’s a piece of God in you somewhere, but you’ve got it so covered up with all that religious baggage you carry around, I can’t even begin to imagine where that piece is. I really don’t think you know the first thing about God, or Life, or People. Clearly, religion is more important than people to you, and that’s just plain sad. I’m sure you have a good heart, but what I see is a man who is tormented by a fear of not believing correctly. Is your God so fickle as to destory one of his children because he did not believe correctly? That’s one angry God right there. It’s no wonder you’re so angry!
I wish you well, my friend, but my God, try to enjoy life a little!
Thanks Sue. I would also like to say that I have been quite sick over the last month and even spent a few hours in the emergency room. I’m just now starting to feel better and hope to be more involved here on the site.
To Sam, Thank you for your comment but I don’t think any of us on this site feel a need to challenge those who bring something we may not agree with. I feel very satisfied in letting our readers use their God given insights into whether or not something said here speaks to their hearts or not. I personally do believe in God but my concept of Him is always changing and growing especially since I have allowed my heart the freedom to trust what it speaks to me in the still small voice. The bible is also very important to me as you will notice I often quote from it.
Actually I don’t mind at all when someone like Jack or Alan come here and condemn us because it becomes plain to all where God’s Perfect Love stands in their present lives. I only feel sadness for them and wish them the very best as they work through their own desire to get us all straight.
Sam, I think you might have the wrong idea about what this site is all about. We are not trying to convince anyone of anything. We are just here to facilitate discussion around the premise that God’s grace might just be SO BOLD that it overcomes all of our shortcomings… including our DISBELIEF!
There is a great awakening going on about the nature of God, and there are many people interested in knowing about the idea that Jesus might actually be the Savior of the World. Traditional christianity teaches that Jesus came to give the world a CHANCE at salvation, but it is up to the individual to decide whether or not they will receive that grace or not. The Jesus we know is much larger, and much greater than the Jesus of traditional christianity. Our Jesus is the Messiah foretold by the prophets of old… the revelation of reconciliation of God and his creation. He is the redeemer, the promise of hope and glory to come. The cross of traditional christianity is weak and narrow. It is only a tool by which man can attempt to reconcile with God. Our cross is a mighty tree as wide as the whole world, and DID RECONCILE man to God. We believe it is God who reconciled with us, not us who have to reconcile to God. Big difference. Incredibly freeing. And wonderfully powerful.
Bruce, your second paragraph could not say it any clearer. That is what I have come to believe over the past number of years and am seeing this clearer as time goes on.
Thanks Cliff for your input on my comments. It is great to be free to a point that criticism and insults as have been directed towards you and the admin of this site by a few of late, and still see you are gracious and loving. I apologize if I have misunderstood your purpose for having this site. I will keep reading and likely become more quiet and in the sidelines more than ever. I rest in His grace.
Sam,
Kudos to alot of what you said….my husband liked your tone.
You wrote about Jack… “He obviously thinks he is some type of prophet called to bring correction to those that have strayed away from what he believes to be truth. Some of his words are pretty severe and he obviously he believes he can bring correction to those on this site that have “stayed” and are following demonic activity. ”
It was not Jack who said that he is a prophet….it was me that said that (eliyah)…for I know a prophet when I hear one….and they still get stoned to this day….for their message is very rarely well received. There is a big difference between a ‘church’ prophet and the Lord’s prophet….HUGE….and the weightiness of the Glory of God that rests upon the Lord’s beloved John is unmistakeable. Boldgrace was blessed to have been sent him….truly the Lord is reaching out in His mercy for those that still have not had their conscious seared by deception.
I honor the Lord in John’s life…and he too has been given the assignment as was Jeremiah and Elijah to uproot, to pluck up, plant, to tear down and build up….and far be it from me or anyone else to stand in the way of what the Lord chooses to tear down or build up.
You wonder what the Spirit of Elijah looked like….welp, it just came in the front door in VIBRANT TECHNICOLOR……whoa!
Sleep well.
Selah.
I think I was just called a pedophile. That’s interesting! I really don’t understand this fellow: What is his agenda? Other than to judge everyone who does not believe as he does. He knows none of us, other than the words we have written here. Words are really our poorest way of expression sometimes.
Don R, “spiritual pedophile” would probably be more correct …….. but hey when you’re the energetic equal to the Son of God I guess that’s no problem.
I mean nothing is unclean and everything is game here, right. Isn’t that the house rules. You don’t need a watchman on the wall when everything is declared clean and there are no rules to judge a man’s hand by. It’s party time …… everybody’s in the game.
Deal the next hand …….. everything’s wild !
hey Don I hear you man. Also I appreciate your sharing, Sue I agree its a great book, a real eye opener for sure.
Jack(and sidekick eli), what can I say, you have a point of view and it seems it must, can only truly be, absolute, without a doubt, the only view point, there is no other, that is valid, every other thought, but the ones, we have gathered, are filthy whores, etc. etc…
I gather from your frothing at the mouth you base your identity in a collection of thoughts that you perceive are rightness of thought. Once these thoughts(beliefs) are challenged in some way, out comes the defensive/offensive lines to save the day and help straighten out Gods wayward people, lol, thanks for the entertainment. Its great to know there are still head over heels religiousness out there such as yourself, if only to give such amazing contrast to the simplicity of the Good News.
But hey, I encourage you to be all that you feel you are called to be.
What encourages me most about this whole thing is I didn’t expirence any anger or take any offense to your harsh words, even if I had wanted to it just wasn’t there, thats reasonably new for me. I think it is the gentle work of the Christ spirit within.
I have realized, through the message of the cross, that I can only settle on what I believe in when I am absolutely freed, in every sense of the word, from the requirement to believe in the first place.
This freedom in knowing the love of God includes me not matter how far I go, spiritually speaking, how deep I dig, or how high I climb, gives me much courage to seek, to question, to ask and to dismiss, to embrace.
Infact, if God happens to be a being and not Being itself (or both) then I can only imagine a God that is big enough to not take offence in my misjudgings/misconceptions about him, but looks at me and says “man I love you, you are mine and I wouldn’t have you any other way, infact I DIDN’T, if you know what I mean”, and then gracefully chuckles ofcourse.
You guys here at bold grace are a fabulous bunch, thank you for allowing a heretic with questions and a hunger to walk in God, without the religion, to join your interweb fellowship,
Marco
I guess you’re right, Jack. Everything is permissible… after all, you’re permitted here, right? Even the most tormented, angry, fearful, troubled spirits are welcome here, because they are part of God’s creation too. We are all together in this. Love ya, bro!
In this post I said:
“Man has written some incredible words throughout the ages but the reality is that at our best our words to each other are dark counsel and without knowledge. I’m not saying they don’t have value. I’m just saying that I have come to a place in life where I am convinced that we need to quit worrying about the answers so much and spend more time listening to the still small voice within.”
I guess the 120 comments that have been written testify to the obvious. I would advise all who come here and read or comment to take a few moments in quiet and ask yourself what that STILL SMALL VOICE IS SAYING. I know my counsel at its very best is dark and without knowledge but one thing I do know is that even in all our division and disagreement God loves us ALL THE SAME. I choose not to compete with those whom it seems so important to be so right. I’m sure I am wrong about many things but I’m equally as sure that I am right about God’s unconditional love for us all.
Peace,
Cliff
Cliff do you understand God’s unconditional love comes in the form of both judgement and mercy?
Since you seem to imply that you have been part of the message of “Universal Reconciliation” for thirty something years you would obviously be familiar with one of the great pioneers that has been used of God to restore this glorious truth to our generation. I speak of J Preston Eby whom I believe the most anointed teacher alive today with regards to the Truths of the Kingdom. Here is a message I have shared on many New Age/New Tolerance forums over the years. It speaks to the impasse we are currently at. This excerpt is taken from a series where Eby writes on the Astrological signs that reveal the gospel in the heavens.
By the way in the thirty years Eby has been publishing his monthly message he has never charged a dime nor ever solicited funds. The guys I read, never charge.
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The subject of judgment is a large one in the Bible, running through scripture from Genesis to Revelation, and it is so manifold in meaning, purpose, and application that it eludes simplification. The judgments of God run deep and are so vast and multi-faceted that they lie completely beyond the comprehension of the carnal mind and beyond the grasp of mortal man. As exclaimed by Paul, “O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how UNSEARCHABLE ARE HIS JUDGMENTS, and His ways past finding out!” (Rom. 11:33). David prophesied, “…for He cometh, for He cometh to judge the earth; He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with His truth” (Ps. 96:13). Paul urged the Athenians to repent “because He hath appointed A DAY in which He will JUDGE THE WORLD in righteousness by that Man whom He hath ordained, whereof He hath given assurance unto all men, in that He has raised Him from the dead” (Acts 17:31). Judgment is inseparably related to the coming of Christ and His Kingdom. “I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord, Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His Kingdom” (II Tim. 4:1).
We have met some brethren ………. who have exaggerated the bright side of the love of God out of all proportion to its other aspects. The love of God has been presented in such a way that it is a weakness rather than a strength. It has been presented on the sunny side of the street with nothing on the other side ever mentioned. There is a “love” of God preached that has become such a one-sided, mushy, gooey, sugar sweet thing that it contains nothing of the vital and vigorous concern of a Father for the best interests of a son — it would never love enough to chasten, scourge and correct that son! They have perverted love, making it sickening rather than stimulating, causing it to slop over on every side like a sentimental feeling rather than expressing an abiding concern for the object of love. The kind of God we have revealed in the scriptures is a God of both love and judgment. He is not a nebulous nonentity of sentimentalism. He is a God of character. We thank God today that He is a God of love, forgiveness and mercy — and there would not be one of us alive today to breathe His fresh air, if it were not for His amazing love toward us. But those who do not want to believe that God will administer a sufficient amount of corrective judgment upon the disobedient and rebellious, should he reminded that God is exactly that kind of Being. In the very cradle of human history, we find God pronouncing a curse upon our first parents on account of their transgression. He even pronounced a curse upon the earth itself on account of their sin.
There is going to be a unique and different unfolding of this One we call Jesus Christ! We have known Him as the Saviour of the world — but He is about to go forth bringing His judgments to the whole earth, to the entire bestial order that the carnal mind of man has erected. In the book of Revelation we see the Christ riding forth on a white horse with the armies of the sons of God following in His path, “judging and making war. In Revelation 6:16 it is called “the WRATH of the LAMB. What an amazing divine paradox! The “Lamb” of God who “takes away the sin of the W-O-R-L-D” on the one hand, and the “wrath” of the Lamb on the other hand. The Lamb — precious embodiment of meekness, mildness, lowliness, gentleness, patience and sacrifice — coming upon the world for which He died in the hot fury of vengeance, until men are found fleeing from the wrath of the Lamb! Ah, this is Aries, the Lamb, who becomes Taurus, the Bull! Is it not written in the heavens?
This dual nature — the meekness of the Lamb and the vengeance of the Wild Bull — makes Him what He is, both the SAVIOUR and the JUDGE of the universe. In His redemptive activity His face is set against sin and death. Nothing can ever alter that. He will go to all lengths to turn men from evil, and restore them into harmony with the mind and heart of God. The sheer simplicity and sincerity of His passion is enough to melt and win the most sophisticated or the hardest of men. The wrath of the Lamb is beyond our understanding. But the Seer of Patmos was shown the unveiling of the wrath of the Lamb. I want to declare that God is going to come forth in these last days in a revelation of Jesus Christ with the judgments and wrath of God. This shaking and purging will affect the very church of the living God. The hour is come when judgment must begin at the house of God, but the whole earth will reel violently under the overflow. And do not think, precious friend of mine, that this judgment that begins at the house of God pertains to Jim Bakker and Jimmy Swaggert. The judgment of these brethren is the judgment of God revealed against that great city, Babylon. The judgment that begins at the house of God comes first to those who have received the call to sonship, to those apprehended to the high calling of God, to those predestined to be conformed into the image of the son of God that they may rule and reign with Him in His Kingdom! The Lord comes suddenly to His temple as a refiner’s fire and as fullers soap. He shall thoroughly purge His floor, and purify the sons of Levi.
There is a two-fold working of God in the lives of the Lord’s apprehended ones. First, SELF must be dethroned, and in the accomplishment of this Christ is the Wild Bull, clothed with strength and majesty and terribleness. As the Wild Bull He will crush every bone in the body of your self life and tear away and destroy every vestige of your flesh. But as the Lamb He wondrously imparts of HIS LIFE that you may live by the spirit. The Wild Bull is Christ warring, destroying, conquering all that pertains to the nature of old Adam. The Lamb is Christ AS OUR LIFE, that we may appear with Him in glory. But further — these same qualities and characteristics must be fulfilled in the elect as we are conformed into His image, made ONE IN HIM. The company of the sons of God shall bear both the image of the Lamb and the Wild Bull. The strength and ferocity of the Wild Bull nature shall function through the sons in perfect unity with the gentle and ministerial character of the Lamb. These two streams of the divine nature, working together as one, in judgment and in mercy, shall flow mightily and great, and will cause the very earth to shake, will move heaven and stir hell, and bring the triumph of God’s Kingdom among men. Hallelujah to the Lamb! Hallelujah to the Bull!
Jack,
Quite honestly you are just freaking me out with your weirdness. I apologize for being rude, but why do you feel the need to be here when you obviously can’t stand anything this site is about? No one here wants to try and convert you or anything. We don’t do that here. We just like to share. You came here…we didn’t come to you. I am just sincerely confused by you. Quite frankly I feel like you are…well…mean?
“Those tending the pigs ran off and reported this in the town and countryside, and the people went out to see what had happened. When they came to Jesus, they saw the man who had been possessed by the legion of demons, sitting there, dressed and in his right mind; and they were afraid. Those who had seen it told the people what had happened to the demon-possessed man—and told about the pigs as well. Then the people began to plead with Jesus to leave their region.” Mark 5
Mindy “just liking to share” can be similar to “tending pigs”
Got to be careful what you share and if I remember correctly that Bible, you don’t hold to be of much worth, speaks of us being held accountable for our words.
Now you want me to leave your region when I was just getting to know everybody and settling in for a long run?
My feelings have been dashed.
Jack,
Yes, I have read Eby and I respectfully don’t agree. First of all I don’t agree with him or you about what you call the return of Jesus. I think you even called it the rapture in one your posts at your site. Without going into to great detail I believe the great judgement Jesus spoke of was talking about the end of world. As you know the word “world” in the greek means “AGE” and He was speaking of the end of the Jewish age. The book of Revelation was written in 68 AD and the destruction of Jerusalem happened in 70 AD. Listen to the first verse of chapter one and then some of the final verses of the book of Revelation:
Rev 1:1
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
Rev 22:6-10
6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”
7 “Behold, I am coming soon! Blessed is he who keeps the words of the prophecy in this book.”
8 I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I had heard and seen them, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who had been showing them to me.
9 But he said to me, “Do not do it! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets and of all who keep the words of this book. Worship God!”
10 Then he told me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, because the time is near.
John was told clearly that the things written in that book were to take place SOON.
The 24 chapter of Mathew also bears this same message and toward the end of that chapter the following verse points to the time of judgement:
Matt 24:34
34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.
NT Wright has written extensively on this very subject as well as Max King. For those who would like a taste of what Max has written here is the following:
The Day and The Hour
by Max R. King, Apr 20, 2005
Much traditional theology looks at Matthew 24 and sees two comings of Christ: one in the destruction of Jerusalem, and the other at the supposed end of the physical world. In attempting to find two end times for two eschatological comings of Christ in Matthew 24, some claim that Christ knew what Jerusalem would fall. Therefore, the “day and hour” not known in Matthew 24:36 (and the events that follow) refer to a yet-future coming of Christ, one of greater magnitude and scope than the one purportedly he refers to in verses 1-35. This raises some pertinent observations.
Three Observations
First, there is no indication in the context or in the entire Book of Matthew (or in any other of the Gospels) that Christ looked forward to the dissolution of the physical universe. This is significant because if Christ made such a transition in verse 36, the disciples would have no frame of reference to comprehend what he was speaking of.
Jesus (as a Second Temple Jew) drew from the prophets. So when Christ spoke of the coming of the Son of Man on the clouds with power and glory (Matt. 24:29-31), the disciples would have immediately recognized the prophetic reference of Daniel 7. In this text, Daniel does not refer to the end of the planet, but the consummation of the Kingdom of God, which no Second Temple Jews would have equated with the destruction of the space-time universe.
Additionally, if Christ spoke of the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory in the fall of Jerusalem (Matthew 24:29-31), what greater power and greater glory would he acquire sometime in the indefinite future at the obliteration of the physical earth?
Second, if Christ spoke of two separate comings in Matthew 24 and if the day and the hour of his “second Second Coming” were unknown, he could not possibly be aware that his coming in the fall of Jerusalem would occur before his coming at the “end of the world.” The point is that the “second Second Coming” (if the theory is correct) could destroy the world before the Romans armies would have had the occasion to surround Jerusalem.
The implication of the “two Second Comings” theory that the “second Second Coming” could have possibly come before the first makes Christ’s warnings to his disciples meaningless. Why should the disciples “watch and wait” with intense expectation (Lk. 21:34-36; 1Cor. 1:7=8; 1Thess. 1:10; Hebrews 10:25; James 5:8-9; 1Peter 1:13; 4:7; 4:13-19; 1Peter 1:19; Rev. 1:1-3) for Christ’s coming in 70 A.D. when the world might be destroyed first?
This theory makes Christ’s statements nonsensical. Moreover, if this scenario had played out, Christ would have been a “false prophet,” claiming that he knew something would happen (the fall of Jerusalem at the hands of the Romans), yet it failed to materialize (because the planet dissolved).
Third, if the “day and the hour” of Christ’s coming in the fall of Jerusalem were known, then Christ would not have needed to give signs whereby his disciples could know that “the end is not yet” (Matt 24:6). Signs indicating that the end would be “near, even at the doors” (Matt. 24:33) would have been superfluous. Jesus simply could have told them the “day and the hour.”
Yet he did give signs. John wrote of similar signs in the Book of Revelation. In this vision written nearly forty years after the Olivet Discourse, Jesus indicated, “Behold, I am coming quickly…Surely I am coming soon” (Rev. 22:7, 12, 20). Even at this date, Jesus and John did not know the day and the hour, but they knew from the signs that the time was near.
One Age-Ending Transformation
A common misstep in the study of Christ’s eschatological Parousia is that of arbitrarily creating two sets of contrasting ages. The one before the cross theoretically consists of the Old Covenant Age and the New Covenant Age. The second after the cross hypothetically consists of the Christian (or Church) Age and Eternity. Most interpreters agree that in the Gospels the references to “this age” refer to the Old Covenant Age while the references to “the age to come” refer to the New Covenant Age. Yet in the post-cross period, many suggest that we encounter an entirely different “this age” and a new “age to come.”
The concept of two age-ending programs—one in the Old Testament and one in the New—is without scriptural support. The ‘future’ of biblical post-cross expectation focuses on the ultimate coming and full manifestation of the one and only “age to come” that stands for the new creation wherein Christ was to be revealed in power and glory (Matt. 245:3, 30). From this perspective, believers were able to taste the powers of “the age to come” in advance of the passing Old Covenant Age (Heb. 6:5; 8:13).
With respect to the “last days” and the times of the Messiah, ancient Jewish teachers distinguished “this age” from “the age to come.” Westcott noted, “Between ‘the present age’ of imperfection and ‘the age to come’ of the perfect reign of God, they placed ‘the days of Messiah,’ which they sometimes reckoned in the former, sometimes in the latter, and sometimes distinct from both. They were, however, commonly agreed that the passage from one age to the other would be through a period of intense sorrow and anguish, ‘the travail-pains’ of the new birth (Mt. 24:8).”
Westcott went on to point out that, “The apostolic writers, fully conscious of the spiritual crisis through which they were passing, speak of their own time as the ‘last days’ (Ac. 2:17; Jas. 5:3); the ‘last hour’ (1 John 2:18); ‘the end of the times’ (1 Peter 1:20); ‘the last time’ (Jude 18).[i]
In Matthew 24, Jesus tied the “birth pains” with the destruction of Jerusalem (Matt. 24:1-8). This latter event—not the cross itself—is the focal point for the consummation of the transformation of the covenant ages. The cross was the means by which this transformation occurred.[ii]
The destruction of the city and the temple, the consummation of the age, the Parousia of Christ (Matt. 24:1-3), the coming of the end (Matt. 24:14), the fulfillment of all things written (Lk. 21:20-21), and the full arrival of the Kingdom of God with power (Matt. 24:31 and Mk. 9:1) stand united within the stated time frame. Jesus identified his contemporaries when he sad that “this generation will not pass away until all these things have taken place” (Matt. 24:33). It was the “day and the hour” not the “generation” that was unknown when Jesus uttered the Olivet Discourse.
Some of them would live to see the day (Matt. 16:27-28; Mk. 9:1). Jesus particularly singled out the apostle John (Jn. 21:21-24; Rev 1:1; 22:6-10). This would be the “great and glorious day” (Acts 2:20) for which the disciples watched and waited (1Corinth. 1:7-8; Galatians 5:5; Hebrews 9:28; 2Peter 3:13). It makes no sense that they would be waiting for the ‘end’ of the New Covenant Age before the Old one came to a full completion. They would not have to wait for another “age to come” in order to receive the salvation of which the Old Testament prophets “inquired and searched diligently” (1 Peter 1:9-13).
The end that the prophets had in view is the only end spoken of by Jesus in Matthew 24. It is the same end that Peter said was “at hand” nearly two thousand years ago (1Peter 4:5). This rules out by two millennia (so far) the “revelation of Jesus Christ” (1Peter 1:13) at some indefinite period in our future at the supposed end of the current age.
The fall of Jerusalem in the lifetime of Jesus’ contemporaries is the historical environment set forth by Jesus as “the day when the Son of Man is revealed” (Luke 17:30).
About the author:
Max King is currently finishing his forthcoming book on Romans 9-11.
Jack, Let me also say that Mindy is in touch with the beautiful spirit of God within her more then most people I have ever known. Yes, she is my daughter and yes thankfully she learned to trust that beautiful spirit of which you relate to the pigs, but then again I believe it is quite clear to the hearts of our readers that she is NO PIG and you certainly aren’t the LORD. Keep on posting here because I for one believe every time you speak you only help our cause.
As Bill O’reilly says, “WE REPORT, YOU DECIDE”. I am quite confident that people who are looking to leave fear behind and embrace unconditional love will be able to see the difference in your message and what we present here at BoldGrace.
“Yes, I have read Eby and I respectfully don’t agree. First of all I don’t agree with him or you about what you call the return of Jesus. I think you even called it the rapture in one your posts at your site. Without going into to great detail I believe the great judgement Jesus spoke of was talking about the end of world.”
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You see my friend I don’t believe you have been in the message for thirty five years, nor are you familiar with Eby or ever read anything about a “rapture being the second coming” on my blog. Quite to contrary I shared a writing entitled “The Rapture Lie.” The Rapture Lie” speaks to the falsity of the orthodox view of the second coming and the saints being raptured.
Now, I understand the interpretations and dates you are throwing at me as I have investigated the Pantelist views which say all was finished at 70 AD. I don’t know if you are Pantelist. I also understand the preterist view of Mat 24 and agree, while also believing prophesy is ever alive, and similar yet different events are sometimes prophesied by the same passages.
The Book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ Jesus and His Kingdom and deals mainly and most importantly with the Kingdom within. I know the dates and have seen arguments because the the date of John’s visitation is in question. No problem by me because of that which I share above about the book. I am also not a big eschatology buff believing that the “workings within” will take care of the workings without.
Now to make it real simple here is how Eby, myself, and most I know see the coming of the Lord. This might show you how wrong you are in your assessment of our beliefs. Hopefully this might even help change your view. Please let me know what you think of this simple interpretation.
* The coming of the Lord has already happened, it is now happening, and it shall continue to happen.
* Jesus came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; and He will continue to come.
* There are many ages to come, “unto an thousand generations,” and Jesus will come in all of them.
* His comings are multi-faceted and include many manifestations. This would make for a thick book.
MARANATHA! JESUS IS COMING! THE LORD IS AT HAND!
EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS!
Jack
PS. Cliff the judgements are like the comings of Lord. The great white throne judgement is even today. I experienced it.
And Cliff I caught you in the last one so don’t twist again and accuse me of saying Mindy was a pig. I said “sharing thoughts can be alot like tending pigs” I have found that to be true myself.
And belive me I know the spirits as I have already demonstrated …….. and yes the spirits are upset.
You guys have been just a blast but I hope to take my leave tomorrow to write a blog on “fear and the present economy.” I am pained to see so many I care for hurt and dismayed with another sign of the end of the age. Today is the day to have everything we possess laid at the foot of the Cross. Amen.
Often I get kicked off places like this and if you want to do it early have at it. Won’t hurt my feelings in the least and you guys can go back to tending pigs, or sharing or what ever you do. LOL
Go mbeannai Dia duit,
Jack
Well Jack I TOLD YOU SO!
You said long ago that your work here on Bold Grace was done! And I foretold (prophesied) of a time when you would come back and comment more. Did you change your mind or are you a liar? Or did the spirit tell you to come back and give us more of your self righteous correction? You see Jack people like you can’t rest! You will stay and try to prove your righteousness and hurl insults and innuendos like pig, pedophile and others hoping that we will cease to proclaim the message of Bold Grace. You then like so many of the preachers I know say you did not say we were pigs and pedophiles. Quit hiding Jack tell us exactly what you think of us and be done with it.
Jack Wrote:
Often I get kicked off places like this and if you want to do it early have at it. Won’t hurt my feelings in the least and you guys can go back to tending pigs, or sharing or what ever you do. LOL
Now the truth comes out! You are trying to get us to kick you off and because we won’t you are mad and name calling! When name calling and your LOL will not cause your banishment here on Bold Grace
People like you Jack come back over and over again because something unseen draws you here. That unseen thing is the Grace and Peace we offer. And while you rant and speak against us something yet in your soul says to you, “I want to believe what Bold Grace says but I am scared too”. Jack here is another “prophecy” for you. “The seed of The Bold Grace and Peace of Jesus the Christ has been planted in you and it will work its way to maturity. Whether you ever bless us with another comment, what has been planted in you by your time here will cause one day all of your trust in your “personal faith” to come to a crashing end! And on that day you will give up your own self-righteous faith and belief and you will embrace the faith of Jesus” And on that day we will rejoice with you and say, WELCOME HOME”
Until Homecoming Day
Peace
Geo
Jack like I said before Jesus Christ love and mercy always is greater than anything. Judgement came upon the world when Jesus Christ died on the cross John 12 ;31. He came to take the judgement of the world and no one can take credit for anything He did it all.
Love in Christ Dan
WHEEWWW…..
The Lord speaks so powerfully through you my brother John.
I especially liked the ‘tending pigs’ comment for that was straight from the Throne.
Holy Spirit quickened in me to go to the PHOTO section of this website….and as the old saying goes….a picture is worth a THOUSAND WORDS.
Those 4 snapshots speak prophetically….and it saddens me….for nestled between the jailhouse photo and the pig is the gathering of all those that are bound and eat from the table of vomit and uncleanness.
The final and 4th picture should cause all to seriously GET REAL…..for the time of the ingathering is right at the door….and I say this with a heart that pleads to all of you to stop fornicating with the Man of Lawlessnesss and REPENT of every foul, unclean, prideful spirit that has seduced you to leave your first love …..Jesus Christ.
In the past Father’s correction and judgement would sometimes come slowly taking place after several years of warning…..but not TODAY…..as we all have been witnessing with such ones as Haggard and Bentley….very swift within months.
Jack has been bold. Jack has also been full of grace, mercy, and love…..it is just that you don’t believe that love and judgement can coincide together and that is due to a lack of maturity. For every good parent knows that love is discipline….for in it is PROTECTION.
The Lord sent you a father in the faith. He brought correction to you only b/c of Father’s deep love reaching out one last time before serious judgement comes.
What say you? For by your own hand you have written the title of the 4th picture….Memorial Day 2008.
I say again repent for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand.
1Co 13:8 Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
1Co 13:9 For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
1Co 13:10 But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
1Co 13:11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
I love this passage of scripture, the knowledge of imperfection is passing away. because the Truth supersedes it. Knowledge puffs up and puts people on levels and realms, and uses the law to bring guilt and shame, but that thinking is becoming obsolete and is fading. The Truth of perfection is come, the effect of righteousness is peace and assurance. Righteousness and peace have kissed each other. Grace be multiplied to all love Jeff and Kate.
Well said Jeff & Kate.
I love the following statement you made:
“Knowledge puffs up and puts people on levels and realms, and uses the law to bring guilt and shame, but that thinking is becoming obsolete and is fading. The Truth of perfection is come, the effect of righteousness is peace and assurance. Righteousness and peace have kissed each other. “
OMG, this day is so beautiful. The trees are changing colors. The sun is shining brightly and I am headed home to see my family! I hope you all have a wonderful weekend!
Jeff & Kate,
That was the most perfect thing for me to read as I leave the week behind. Thank you!!
Jack, The following is what I read on your site that led me to believe you believed in the rapture to some degree. It was written by KAI and you obviously agreed with it. I didn’t mean to misrepresent your position but as I have read more on your site it is very obvious you hold yourself in a very high position with regards to what the Lord is thinking. I think the best thing is for others to read your stuff and come to their own conclusions as to what your agenda is.
Written by Kai:
“Undoubtedly, at least to me, the return of the Lord will occur during this time. This return is not going to be the all out rapture, or taking away, as some in the churchianity crowd envision. As they hold their boarding passes for the rapture bus, the true revealing will whizz right on by them, not because the Lord wants it hidden from them, but because their eyes are not able to see the Truth. The return will be revealed in His sons and daughters, His fulness will be revealed, His truth evident in His chosen ones.”
You whole heartedly agreed with Kai on the above statement and you both seem to think you are HIS CHOSEN ONES. I have no problem with you thinking that God speaks to you directly until you try to force that voice on others and it seems quite clear that if others don’t accept the voice you hear they are quickly condemned and judged by you and your followers. You are right about one thing: Your work here is done and those of us who have accepted the UNCONDITIONAL love of God see clearly what your work is all about.
Eliyah WROTE:
I say again repent for the DAY OF THE LORD is at hand
Sorry Eliyah you missed The Day of The Lord by 2008 years. The Day of The Lord was The Day of The Cross. And by not seeing it you are as an unbeliever! So I say to you REPENT and believe on That Day. Also let me add that in NONE of our writings to you or anyone else have we denied that you are Righteous, Holy, Perfect and without Spot or Blemish we at Bold Grace see you as you truly are. But we also know that while we see you as Righteous, Holy, Perfect and without Spot or Blemish you see us as pedophiles and pigs. But that is okay. One day you will come to the end of your self-righteous belief in your belief and on that day we will say as we do now WELCOME, Eat and see that The Lord is GOOD!
Until Homecoming
Peace
Geo
eliyah
Is this your website?
http://www.eliyah.com/
Peace
Geo
eliyah,
Is this your website?
http://www.eliyah.com/
Peace
Geo
Geo,
You wrote…”But we also know that while we see you as Righteous, Holy, Perfect and without Spot or Blemish you see us as pedophiles and pigs.”
You talk out of BOTH sides of your mouth….for 1st you call me to repent and then in the next sentence you say that you see me as righteous,holy,perfect without spot or blemish….and there lies the CONFUSION that the spirits behind the new ager deception continue to spew forth.
You and cliff and others continue to lie and say that I and Jack have called you pigs & pedophiles….NOT ONCE have we done that. Our language is spiritual and the natural man cannot discern the language of the spirit but those who are OF the Spirit are able to hear exactly what we are saying….LOUD and CLEAR.
You Geo and Cliff continue to whine and say that Jack has been harsh, severe, critical, judgemental….ect….when in FACT you both have been GUILTY of being harsh, critical, judgemental yourselves.
Where is all the lovey, dovey, mushy, gushy, sloppy agape that all of you RELISH??? Why has it not been accorded to my brother?
Bottom line….though Jack has spoken to the SPIRITS within this site, he loves each of you….as do I….but we do not love the spirits that have deceived you. Jesus does not get the PRE-EMINENCE here….but you glady embrace those that put themselves on par with Jesus and even those that poo-poo that Jesus was and IS the Son of God.
Cliff…what a sad testimony it must be to you to hear as a father that you would have a daughter that would openly and PROUDLY proclaim that the bible is not important, is just a book and she follows her heart more than the WORD.
Finally, I would invite anyone to Sonshine….for it is a glorious place that is full of love, life, truth, and the EXALTING of Jesus Christ to his rightful place as HEAD.
I also was quickened by Holy Spirit to notice that the picture that is on the sidebar of Sonshine clearly speaks of those who GATHER in fellowship. It is of a picture of a newborn little boy….by the name of Raphael Eden….the name meaning ‘Man who has been restored to Paradise’….a beautiful and glorious picture of the MANCHILD company.
In conclusion, I want you to know Geo that I have prayed for you and everyone else here….for I have had no delight in writing some of the things that I have been assigned to….for I have only ONE to answer to and that is my Father….and He loves each of you mightily and tenderly….and at the very same time He does not love how many of you have exalted yourselves higher than His son Jesus and have chosen to trample on His grace by allowing every foul mixture of doctrine into your vessels. He is a JEALOUS God….and deserves your complete devotion.
May your eyes be opened to see and your ears to hear the trumpet message…..RETURN TO HIM children of disobedience….for He is waiting with open arms.
Shalom.
eliyah I have website for you to read is jubileeconnection.com there is very good teaching under there no bad news in good news.
Love in Christ Dan
Cliff said, “I think the best thing is for others to read your stuff and come to their own conclusions as to what your agenda is.”
_________________
That would please me much as there I believe you will sense the Spirit of our Christ who was slain from the foundations. Incidentally the 2nd coming as used by Kai can be likened to the term church. In one sense the “terms” have come to mean different things. It is understanding the etymology of the words and seeing them in context as far as the meaning. I don’t use the term 2nd coming but I understand Kai’s meaning behind his use of the term.
I am writing a blog today that has to do with judgement coming to the earth and its systems at the end of the age and the sixth day from Adam. If you cannot read the handwriting on the wall and then grieve for what man has done to the earth and each other you are living in a illusory state (which I have made clear you are). The earth with it’s mankind cannot much longer bare the pressure of corruption and if God didn’t bring judgement soon man would destroy himself and the earth he lives on. This is an ongoing story that repeats itself. It is just common sense, wide awake reality that even the ungodly are taking notice of ……… that we are at the end of something everyone senses. Cliff your fulfilled view will fall like a house of hay and stubble soon and if all is not surrendered to Christ these will be the most horrific of times. In contrast for those that have abandoned all to Christ this will be the most glorious of days as the world will seek solace that only the Christ Jesus can bring them. It is always in tribulation that the soul cries out and it is in mercy that God sends His Son. There is nothing really too special about the elect of God in this age as they are the ones that get dragged through the cactus patch first. Judgement always begins at the house of God doesn’t it and the first will be last. He has judged us and we are thankful for we know the old nature must die. It is a great day to know Jesus as Lord of all and realize in His judgements is mercy is found.
I could go on and on but today my heart is not into contesting with those that have chosen a path around the cross and fallen in with the New Agers. Yes by all means visit “SONSHINE” blog and you will understand the terms you seem to misunderstand and belittle such as chosen, 2nd coming, elect and so forth. Look at the front page of the blog and the one little photo we have there, then go back and look at the photos Eliyah spoke of here. See if you don’t sense the difference.
Also Cliff I am not a gatherer unto myself and have no desire to be the man. These that visit SONSHINE regularly are not followers of any man but are mostly precious souls that care to be as priests that will stand in the river holding the Arc while all others go first. It is all about Jesus on our little blog and with but a few ” honest” minutes one should discern the difference between the unholy chaos of BoldGrace and SOSNSHINE where watchmen and gate keepers sound the simple Truth ……….. “Jesus is Lord and He comes in a myriad of ways bringing both judgement and mercy to all that are His. That includes everybody. Aren’t you glad!”
Link removed at commenter’s request
Lastly Cliff, if I see you take up poison and begin to put it in your mouth should I be loving and not say anything lest you be offended? That is the question isn’t it.
Jack
After I posted I noticed Eliyah had posted unbeknownst to me. Why is it we say the same thing not even knowing the other is writing …….. could it be the Spirit of the Lord?
Instead of unholy chaos there is unity where and when Jesus is given preeminence as Lord of All.
Jack
Dan, as I was leaving earlier I saw your comment. You have visited our blogs a number of times and left comments so I thought to share with you. By the way I also use the phrase “there is no bad news in the Good News.”
Some time I will write a message entitled “Living In a Place Called “til”.
I’ll even dedicate to you. [wink]
The foundation of that writing will be the “til” in this scripture:
“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” 1Cor 15:25
Couple that with the verses of Hebrews 2:8-10 I will try to show the difference between the “present preeminent position of Christ” and the “future consummation.”
Believe me Dan I understand the errors inherent in the “fulfilled, full preterist view.” I am an old hand that has suffered much that I might know Him. It is the following of our captain and sharing His sufferings that separate the boys from the men. They that follow their captain must endure hardship. Such is the purpose and ways of God in the making of sons.
Bless you and as I said, some of us are quite familiar with the “fulfilled view” and we understand the attractiveness of a view that eliminates the “shared sufferings of our Christ. We all dislike pain don’t we. I believe you might have read my blog on the “Day of Atonement” where I attempt to show that we are the present offerings and sacrifices as typed in the Old Testament and Mosaic Law. If you haven’t read that here is the link. I am not finished with that series but there is enough there to show how intimately we become with our Christ Jesus as we share His Cross.
Link removed at commenter’s request
Jack
Wow, you guys are really something. Your venomous hatred of all that is not of your liking, is truly sickening. My heart breaks for people so bound up in religious bigotry and self-righteousness that they attack and smear those who differ with them. This is why I left religion, and this is why I don’t even like to be thought of as a christian. If Christ is like you guys, I don’t want any part of him. Shame on you!
May those that love us, love us.
And those that don’t love us,
May God turn their hearts.
And if He doesn’t turn their hearts,
May He turn their ankles
So we will know them by their limping.
You’re limping Bruce [wink]
More hatred…
I hope that you someday see who you have become.
Jack said…….could it be the Spirit of the Lord?
If I have ever doubted anything said on here before, I sure do doubt this.
Talk about people being deceived?????? Whew….hopefully grace will invade their hearts soon.
the total misunderstanding of the judgment of the Lord by both eliyah and jack is quite apparent by reading what they say. They accuse others here of not following the ways of the cross when it is very apparent they have no idea what judgment was placed upon Jesus at the cross.
I have seen where eliyah calls jack a prophet and that there is a difference between a prophet of the “church” and a prophet of the Lord. I really believe that a word was left out when calling jack a prophet and that word is false. Quite a bit of difference when you place that word in front of prophet. There are sure many of those that are rising up.
No one has been called pigs and pedophiles as stated by eliyah?????? Just go back and read as it’s about as plain as can be that this is exactly what some were called in their comments.
I don’t usually comment to this extent so to speak, but when I see something that is as false as what Jack and eliyah are trying to portray in the name of righteousness, i just thought it was in order to say something. It is surely a matter of people believing they are something they are not and they feel free to pass judgment on others. And PLEASE don’t come back and say you are judging no one.
May grace be revealed to your hearts as it has been revealed to many that comment here.
What is “redundant” Alex? What do I win?
Jeepers! how often has it been said, “judge the spirits love the man”
Thanks Sam. Everytime Jack and Eliyah write something they only further disclose who they are. Your points are well made and I have no doubt that others reading all of this can see the same thing. The incredible thing about God’s grace is that it is applied to ALL without discrimination as to their performance or positions on religion. Bold Grace is not an idea or movement, but rather a fact of what the Father has given to all of His children, and that even includes Jack & Eliyah.
Keep coming back Jack. The hole you dig is getting deeper and deeper.
“Keep coming back Jack. The hole you dig is getting deeper and deeper.”
Cliff, that hole is for “the death and foulness with the”do not judge sign” about it’s neck.” You guys keep standing that smelly corpse next to Jesus and the Truth is going to bury it.
My friend you can’t touch the Truth in these three posts (copied below) so you ignore them. I have spent much time working with the New Agers in the past so I know your ways.
Three post begging a response:
The Book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ Jesus and His Kingdom and deals mainly and most importantly with the Kingdom within. I know the dates and have seen arguments because the the date of John’s visitation is in question. No problem by me because of that which I share above about the book. I am also not a big eschatology buff believing that the “workings within” will take care of the workings without.
Now to make it real simple here is how Eby, myself, and most I know see the coming of the Lord. This might show you how wrong you are in your assessment of our beliefs. Hopefully this might even help change your view. Please let me know what you think of this simple interpretation.
* The coming of the Lord has already happened, it is now happening, and it shall continue to happen.
* Jesus came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; and He will continue to come.
* There are many ages to come, “unto an thousand generations,” and Jesus will come in all of them.
* His comings are multi-faceted and include many manifestations. This would make for a thick book.
MARANATHA! JESUS IS COMING! THE LORD IS AT HAND!
EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS!
Jack
PS. Cliff the judgements are like the comings of Lord. The great white throne judgement is even today. I experienced it.
____________________________
Some time I will write a message entitled “Living In a Place Called “til”.
I’ll even dedicate to you. [wink]
The foundation of that writing will be the “til” in this scripture:
“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” 1Cor 15:25
Couple that with the verses of Hebrews 2:8-10 I will try to show the difference between the “present preeminent position of Christ” and the “future consummation.”
Believe me Dan I understand the errors inherent in the “fulfilled, full preterist view.” I am an old hand that has suffered much that I might know Him. It is the following of our captain and sharing His sufferings that separate the boys from the men. They that follow their captain must endure hardship. Such is the purpose and ways of God in the making of sons.
Bless you and as I said, some of us are quite familiar with the “fulfilled view” and we understand the attractiveness of a view that eliminates the “shared sufferings of our Christ. We all dislike pain don’t we. I believe you might have read my blog on the “Day of Atonement” where I attempt to show that we are the present offerings and sacrifices as typed in the Old Testament and Mosaic Law. If you haven’t read that here is the link. I am not finished with that series but there is enough there to show how intimately we become with our Christ Jesus as we share His Cross.
Link removed at commenter’s request
Jack
_______________________________
Lastly Cliff, if I see you take up poison and begin to put it in your mouth should I be loving and not say anything lest you be offended? That is the question is it not.
Jack
__________________________________
I’m tired now, good evening,
Jack
Jack, I have not ignored your posts, they simply don’t stand up. How does Christ put his enemies under his feet? He loves them there. He rescues us all by his UNCONDITONAL love and He leaves no one out.
I noticed you did not answer any of Max King’s post either. It really doesn’t matter to me how you choose to view the 2nd coming. In fact I’m quite sure that the other contributers on this site don’t agree with me on this particular subject but they still accept me, not on our disagreement but because they know we are loved equally by Jesus. Too bad you think otherwise. I see the difference between you and I is mainly that you see yourself as all knowing and a light to the blind. I see myself as a normal average human being who is very grateful we have a God who has loved us from the beginning, loves us now, and will always love us because WE ARE HIS CHILDREN, ONE AND ALL. I’m so glad that Jesus came to reveal that awesome love.
ALL:
2 timothy 2:15 – Study to shew THYSELF approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Because he first loved us – Sue
“I noticed you did not answer any of Max King’s post either.”
Cliff, this will be the third time I have posted my response to your Max King post. Once again my response:
__________________________
The Book of Revelation is the unveiling of Christ Jesus and His Kingdom and deals mainly and most importantly with the Kingdom within. I know the dates and have seen arguments because the the date of John’s visitation is in question. No problem by me because of that which I share above about the book. I am also not a big eschatology buff believing that the “workings within” will take care of the workings without.
Now to make it real simple here is how Eby, myself, and most I know see the coming of the Lord. This might show you how wrong you are in your assessment of our beliefs. Hopefully this might even help change your view. Please let me know what you think of this simple interpretation.
* The coming of the Lord has already happened, it is now happening, and it shall continue to happen.
* Jesus came; He continued to come; He comes; He continues to come; He will come; and He will continue to come.
* There are many ages to come, “unto an thousand generations,” and Jesus will come in all of them.
* His comings are multi-faceted and include many manifestations. This would make for a thick book.
MARANATHA! JESUS IS COMING! THE LORD IS AT HAND!
EVEN SO COME LORD JESUS!
Jack
PS. Cliff the judgements are like the comings of Lord. The great white throne judgement is even today. I experienced it.
______________
It still begs a response and as far as the “unconditional love of God” you keep touting, I have shared how that love incorporates both judgement and mercy. We have new blog I just posted by my friend Joian and it shows how far God will go to bring man into His Image. It’s big boy stuff and not some intellectual doctrine made for a comfortable Deity. We are at the end of the age and God is bringing His sons to the ends of themSELVES.
Link removed at commenter’s request
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
Hullo all,
.
Come on you people. This carry on between you is a shocking state of affairs. Any ordinary person reading this tirade of comments would regard you all as religious nut cases. What are you trying to prove? Who’s right and who’s wrong? I’d say you’re all wrong if those attitudes are allowed to prevail. It’s time to move on from all that self centered elemental stuff.
.
Since when is JC out to kill off us human beings who don’t have the so called “right” beliefs and done the so called “right” things? He’s coming to save us you chumps. Something we can’t do ourselves. And do you know how he is doing it? He’s killing off all those stupid deceiving beliefs that are driving you into those hard attitudes towards one another. They are our problem – they are our enemy – all that stuff that has got embedded in our minds – that is what he is dealing with – not us humans.
.
He happens to love us ALL and if we go a little deeper and begin to speak from there we’ll find we are already perfect. Some of you religious folk can be such idiots that you can’t see the wood for the trees! There is nothing between the lot of you, and he’s already here, in the world, as a thief in the night. We can go where he is and we do this by applying “Metanoia” repentance. This means, in practice, to change the way we use our minds, to bring our deeper feelings into the equation – and if we do, then we can start following him rather than our own silly worldly/religious ideas! It couldn’t be much easier.
.
You make it so hard and devisive for yourselves! You should be showing the world the way – NOT arguing from your own little insular camps. Doing that just makes them think you are a joke. Please wake up and take a look at yourselves.
“Some of you religious folk can be such idiots”
Well that a good start lol
Brian NZ,
I would agree that this has gone on too long with no real helpful purpose.
And I also agree with your following statement:
“He happens to love us ALL and if we go a little deeper and begin to speak from there we’ll find we are already perfect.”
It is time to get back to our main purpose here at Boldgrace, to simply share the wonderful, amazing, and bold grace of a God who made us in His image and loves us with His perfect Love that has the power to cast out all our fears.
Peace,
Cliff
Cliff, you say…
.
“It is time to get back to our main purpose here at Boldgrace, to simply share the wonderful, amazing, and bold grace of a God who made us in His image and loves us with His perfect Love that has the power to cast out all our fears.”
.
With all due respect Cliff while it is nice to acknowledge this situation don’t lock yourself into that box. That’s just the beginning! Remember he said, “Follow Me!” Let’s move on from here – we are just going around in circles.
Jack,Jack,Jack! Is your middle name ASS? What kind of WEED are you smoking? Just testing your sense of humor as you are hilarious!! God is a state of Being and eveyone has the right to BE. God does not pick out some people to condemn others. If he did I’m quite sure he would pick someone who made sense. Your position is ages old and stinks of mold and mildew. To argue with you over things millions of people have questioned and will continue to question is useless. The burden you have given yourself is hateful. GOD is Love. Because he first loved us – Sue
p.s. James 1:20 For he wrath of man worketh NOT the righteousness of God. Because he first loved us – Sue
Where did everyone go?
I got on an online bible search site and did a keyword search for “Fool” in Psalms. Wow!!!
Jason
jASON – ELABORATE – BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US – SUE
I figure I will comment in this turbulent time:
(a) I am a friend of the people at BoldGrace – although I disagree with them on certain issues – how can one question ther sincerity and focus on love? I may not be theologically in full agreement with them – but one thing I can agree on – they are kind people.
(b) No one in their right frame of mind would waste their time following the religion of Jack and Eliyah – it’s got vitrol in it – if we are going to be talking poisons. Also they need to be right more than they need to do right – and calling someone a pedophile will not be condoned by any decent person of faith.
“Praise God for Eliyah’s earlier message on ‘pedophilia’ ………. that was ordained of God. She cares for the little ones as do I.” (Jack and Eliyah)
This not something you should ever insinuate about another Christian – since the term is so dirty and hurtful. I don’t care if you used this in a ’spiritual’ way (or you think you did) – this terminology has no use in any of these conversation and I believe you owe Don and others an apology for using terms that are just plain insulting and mean.
(c) As much as some of us may disagree with people at BoldGrace – the only question I care about is – do they love you? I think they do – at least this has been my take in conversation with them.
(d) I think Jack and Eliyah need to get in touch with the following of the teachings we all have been given – and have read. God does not hate people – as humans we do – but even if the people on this site somehow became your enemy – your response is to love them. The way you judged them is not loving – but systemically the problem with the churches view on love. Some discipline can be considered love – I agree – but they did nothing deserving of the name calling you brought to them.