If We Could Only Understand…..
If we could only understand God would explain. Many come to this site and remind me of myself in younger days. They are full of questions and in great need of answers and I guess that’s what keeps me writing, although I’m not really sure it matters at all.
Let me tell you about my parents. My Dad was Cliff (the first) and my mother is Barbara. They raised my two brothers and me in a very loving and good home. We went to church (churches of Christ) most of my young years. My parents were never happy in the church because they had such loving and honest hearts and it was just too much for them to be phony. When my Dad lost his job at Studebaker’s in South Bend we moved to Richmond. I was 12 at the time. It gave them the opportunity to leave the church since we didn’t really know anyone in our new home town. It was the best choice they could have ever made and even though there were struggles I believe they enjoyed a peace together that few church goers ever find.
At age 22 I went back to church taking my family with me and was determined to find truth. What always stuck in my head was my parents great happiness without the church and I needed to understand what went wrong. And so, I studied. I asked every imaginable question and also sacrificed much time in reading, searching, & looking for truth. Looking back I can tell you that the church is the last place for real truth seekers. I endured much pain through the years because I was unwilling to just accept the status quo and fall in line.
To make a very long story short the point I want to make here today is that it really doesn’t matter if you spend your life seeking all the answers (like I did) or just give up and trust your own heart (like my parents did). You see we can not in this limited physical experience understand and I don’t think we were even created to do so.
Job 38:1-3 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said: "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
Man has written some incredible words throughout the ages but the reality is that at our best our words to each other are dark counsel and without knowledge. I’m not saying they don’t have value. I’m just saying that I have come to a place in life where I am convinced that we need to quit worrying about the answers so much and spend more time listening to the still small voice within. That’s what my parents did without even really understanding it. I guess I did the same thing except I took the long painful road that finally led me back to my heart.
My father has been gone now for almost 13 years. He was so loved and respected by everyone who knew him and yet according to even the most liberal of churches my father is suffering an eternal torment because of his lack of church affiliation. Those that knew him best will tell you that in their hearts they could never believe my Dad is in HELL but their church doctrine says something different. WHY CAN’T THEY OPENLY ACKNOWLEDGE WHAT THEIR HEART TELLS THEM?
The bottom line is that "IF WE COULD UNDERSTAND GOD WOULD EXPLAIN". The fact is we CAN NOT UNDERSTAND and I don’t think we ever will. Oh, that won’t stop me from asking or searching because for some reason He made me (us) that way. It must have a purpose but I just don’t think the purpose is about the answers. I think it’s all about the experience.
John 17:3 Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
Look up the word "KNOW" in the above verse and it means to experience in a very intimate way. It has nothing to do with intellectual knowledge. It comes from the same word used in the OT when it talked about a man knowing (have sexual relations) with a woman.
God is not interested in our UNDERSTANDING. He is interested in US EXPERIENCING HIM.
Please don’t think I mind the questions. That’s part of the EXPERIENCE, but I do want all of you to have the advantage of hearing your still small voice a lot quicker then I did.
PEACE,
Cliff
TRUTH
. . . . as experienced by Wes Miller
Fear not the loss of splendor in the setting sun of Truth,
But savor the tutelage of Truth in the solitude of the evening and in your meditations of the night,
For joy comes in the morning as again the rays of Truth ignite the heavens with blazing
revelations in its vindication of Eternal Life.
Christ is the Way.
The Way is Truth.
The Truth is Life.
There is No Death.
“MY SELAH ZONE”
. . . . as experienced by Wes Miller
I used to think that my times of ‘spiritual’ inactivity and drought were brought about by an elusive something that I did or did not do.
I felt guilty when I was not on a ‘spiritual’ high, “on fire for the Lord”, and constantly gorging myself on artificial God things to the point of gluttony. Anything less was “backsliding.” The religious blahs devoid of feeling, desire, and excitement were unacceptable. I had work to do for the Lord.
But, instead, I discovered that He had a work to do in me. My manufactured worship had eclipsed the silence and rest that God had planned for me at a time when I was most teachable.
Selah, i.e., Stop! think on these things; let yourself grow; let God show and teach you His meaning.
When I have finished a meal at my Father’s table, it is normal that I not feel desire and hunger.
It is now time for me to digest what Father has provided for me.
I call this “my Selah Zone”. This is where the taste of my belief is absorbed as the nourishment of confidence when I remember, meditate, and understand that which is now becoming a part of me.
A respite is essential for my ignorance to become insight and my relationship to mature into bonding.
When the current session in “my Selah Zone” is finished, I will again receive what is necessary for me, when it is time for another feast.
Sounds like you are in the “experience zone”. Our words may be only dark counsel compared to God’s but your words carry a lot of the “still small voice” in them.
Wes
I LOVE YOU!
It is so good to see you post here.
We had a GREAT time at breakfast a few weeks ago and long to have more time together.
Peace
Geo
Cliff wrote:
They are full of questions and in great need of answers and I guess that’s what keeps me writing, although I’m not really sure it matters at all.
Cliff,
You are right on one level, that level being God’s view and opinion of us. On that level it does not matter. What you write will NEVER change His view of us as His Children. We are now and will forever be with Him regardless of our thoughts, writings, actions or beliefs. Thank God His agreement is with Jesus and not with me or you or any of mankind.
But on the level that we live on in this life it means LIFE to ALL who read your words. Even to us who know you it means daily fuel when we read your thoughts. Those words help me see my worth. A worth that will never change and as we see so we become in this life.
Peace
Geo
If Uncle Tooday isn’t in heaven, then none of us have any hope. I have absolutley no doubt. That man taught me more about love than most people in the “church”. I loved him dearly and miss him very much. I can just picture him and his brothers and even though they were affiliated with the church, I know they’re in heaven, too.
Love ya Cliffy
your cuz
Lisa Hazelbaker Perry
Cliff, The bible says God is no respector of persons and yet a few found favour with God. What is the difference? Because he first loved us - Sue
Lisa, It’s so good to hear from you. They were three of the best men I knew. Somehow all three of them were able to scale the walls of religion and always stay close in spite of what the church tried to teach them. They were men of love first and that’s what made us love them so much.
Love Ya Lisa with all my heart,
Cliffy
Cliff, As usual your posts are very thought provoking. There are many bible verses that speak of withholding understanding and some like Luke 24:45 “Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures.” John 8:32 “And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.” Perhaps understanding = knowing = experience? Is Hebrews 10:16-17 “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them: and their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.” the small still voice you speak of? Because he first loved us - Sue
p.s.
I think questions and answers do matter as they help us get thru this life.
Dear Sue,
The answers you seek are NEAR YOU, in fact WITHIN YOU, in your heart and in your mouth. As you turn to your heart for the answers you will begin to feel something welling up. As soon as you become aware of the feeling, speak it out. It is all there within you. Have a go Sue
Sue
Audrey is spot on with her advice to look within yourself. God our Father, our lord Jesus and His Holy Spirit are there within you! All of the answers to the questions of life are there within you! What we at Bold Grace seek to do is help you discover those answers. Please don’t ever take anything we say as “the truth”. The Truth resides within you and within ALL of Mankind. The problem as I see it is that religion including christianity has added stuff to the simple message that God is in us the HOPE OF GLORY!
To ALL Who comment here:
You are a shining light a city on a hill. You make it easier for all to see the Christ within!
Peace
Geo
Cliff I really enjoyed your testimony and your conclusion. I know the difficulty of writing and once when I was frustrated and ready to quit I asked, “why write?”
That still small voice answered, “when you write you worship Me.”
I never had a problem after that and if there was none to read that which I write I would still continue because He is worthy to be praised.
Brother you seem to have a wonderful view of the infinite nature of God and the difficulties we face in understanding Him and I appreciate that. I started a series on my blog entitled, “Paradoxology & The Kingdom of God.” This is just a little excerpt which I believe echoes your message.
How often I enjoy reading of some great theological mind that has fallen at His feet knowing that only with our vision of Christ, is there sense to made of our existence. And that sense ……. well it’s nigh impossible to explain, thus we can only throw up our hands and point to Jesus and say there it is ….. there it all is! That is God and that is Love! That’s the Whole of it and Whole of it is Jesus! And when you have come to the place where He is all you see and there is nothing else, you will ……….. well then you will be the Whole and you will understand perfectly. Such is the Mystery of Christ, the Resurrection and God, All in All.
It is all found in Jesus. And “Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way.”
Be blessed my friend and thanks for writing,
Jack
Jack said: “It is all found in Jesus.” And “Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way”.
Until the religious world (christianity) sees that there is no recipe there will always be division. Each person has a unique story and the only ingredient that is the same within us is “THE CHRIST WITHIN”. This Christ within can not be intellectualized, He can only be experienced.
Thanks Jack. Your words are greatly appreciated.
Cliff, It’s good to hear more of your story. I never knew the details of why your dad and mom stopped going to church. I do know that one of the greatest delights of my dad and mom was getting together with your parents as well as Uncle Joe and Aunt Abbie. Those three couples shared a bond that is unusual, especially among families today. I wonder if they ever discussed any of this? As far as I know, they never did.
You are right that some churches would teach as you said re: your dad’s eternal destiny. But, there is a wide range of teaching on this subject, and not all churches teach that, and certainly not all churchgoers believe that way.
I might add that there are many reasons that a person might choose to go to church besides to escape eternal torment.
I have already commented on this here before, so I won’t belabor that point. While you have decided that church is not the way for you, for others it is. Not every church everywhere is the same, and I think that is something you often overlook in your comments.
You know I love you and have always held you and your entire family in high regard. May God continue to bless you and yours with love, peace, and joy.
Cliff the writting of your experiences is alot like when Paul wrote the letter to the churches.That was the way God used to open the door for people to see the true.
Love in Christ Dan
Connie, in defense of Cliff’s view, 99.9% of organized churches believe in the doctrine of “Hell, a place of eternal torment.” If they don’t actively preach it, this foul doctrine is the 800 pound gorilla that although ignored still crouches in the corner. Whether it is Calvinism or Arminianism or a mixture as long as any theological belief system of a church is tied to the Hellish doctrine there is corruption, as fear is the motivator.
I spent ten years as a minister in the organized church before I saw the light. I have been out of the system for over a quarter century and have spent much time studying and observing the ways of the Harlot.
Decades ago I used to visit with an old friend and a pioneer of the Gospel of the Kingdom. You might have read the writings of this wonderful man of God or possibly even heard of him. His name is George Hawtin and what he shared with me has above all been a great lesson as far as the ways of churches. George said, “Jack, when ever you turn all the chairs around to face a man, you are in trouble.” Over and over I have witnessed this as one group after another gets together with the idea they will do it differently. It always gets corrupted and it doesn’t take long, as from the group, leaders emerge and take control. Thank God the “Age of the Wilderness Church” is about over.
I care deeply about our children and our children’s children and it was this motivation that caused me to write a message today entitled “Coming of Age.” It speaks to that which I have just shared. I also wept an hour ago, when I read this same message to a friend who was a pastor for many years. Today this woman shares with her six children how the organized church has had it all wrong. She encourages them to come out as she also knows you can never change the system by co-mingling.
My article is published at “Jackson Hole & Christ” which is listed in the Blogroll here. I can only pray it will serve above all our children.
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
Mr. Hennessey, I would be interested to know where you get your statistic that 99.9% of organized churches believe in the doctine of hell? The church exists in so many different places and in so many forms, I just don’t see how it is possible to be so adamantly sure of this figure. It is not my intention to start a debate with you (or anyone) on this point. I just really want to know your source for this. Thanks!
Hey Cliff I enjoyed what you wrote, God as experience is all we ever have, as much as we often tie up this experience with doctrine/information, whether true or false, is as much a distraction as anything else.
Beliefs in God are only a poor substitute for the living reality of God, in this moment. There is no time to be experienced besides the Now, never has and never will be.
Doctrines/information can only point to this realm, but identity is so often bound to the doctrine/information about the realm and not the realm itself.
This realm is without form, I AM. Jesus was a vessel in which this realm was manifest. As we are also.
The whole thing about organized religion, although many teach hell, the problem isn’t necessarily hell, its the literalization of it as an actual place.
Teaching that people will go there if they don’t do this or that would be laughable if it were not so destructive.
The reality is as metaphor hell is real, millions of people are living in hell right now, a hell brought on by themselves/others/circumstances etc..
that they, in their state of consciousness, can see no escape.
Using old God language they need to be “saved”, this power we experience as God needs to be Awakened within, consciousness itself.
What saves us isn’t doctrine/information, but it is a host of everything else, it is Mother Teresa touching a leper, an untouchable.
Sin is not offending the ruling male diety in the sky mentality, sin is when one diminishes the life of another. To enhance, not diminish, the life of another is to walk in the kingdom of God.
It is loving and being loved wastefully, unconditionally without the counting of cost.This is the spirit of it all and this is where we experience
the realm of God. Not tomorrow, not yesterday, Now. Now is all we ever have, Now is eternity.
When organized religion can move on from old broken concepts and into the Present, it will be good. Already there are grassroots movements promoting Progressive Christianity, religion itself must evolve or die.
have a graceful day,
Marco
I continue to enjoy your posts, Cliff. Keep it up!
Marco- Very well put, my friend. Nice comment.
“Mr. Hennessey, I would be interested to know where you get your statistic that 99.9% of organized churches believe in the doctine of hell? The church exists in so many different places and in so many forms, I just don’t see how it is possible to be so adamantly sure of this figure. It is not my intention to start a debate with you (or anyone) on this point. I just really want to know your source for this. Thanks!”
Connie, 99.9% is a metaphorical term and yes without debating or detracting from Cliff’s writing or the many comments I will leave it at that.
Bless you
Connie,
Maybe I have asked this before? Do you hold any position of leadership at your church? Are you on the board or do you have any titles?
Peace
Geo
No, Geo, I don’t. I”m simply a regular person doing the best I can do follow Jesus. I attend church and find that it’s a mixed blessing, as some of the things you guys object to are true, as no group composed of human beings is ever going to be perfect. However, to take what you or I have found in our respective experiences with church and generalize to all churches everywhere is quite a stretch. I’m not ready to drink that koolaid.
Why do you ask?
it is not about going to church or not going to church, I personally do not, but would if there was one within range. Any out let to be an encouragement and blessing to others should not be discouraged. This doesn’t mean all has to be agreed upon to experience fellowship, only that you have a heart that is willing to Be.
in the grip of grace,
Marco
Marco, I love what you said about sin being that which diminishes others. And the inverse is true too. Love is that which increases others. That’s beautiful.
But, as to being an encouragement to those who participate in organized religious services… I equate that much the same as trying to be an encouragement to people going to see a movie at a theater. The majority of the people don’t know each other… most of the time, they are “busy” watching the performance… and afterward, they just want to rush home.
Personally, I think we can be an encouragement to everyone we come across, especially if we can somehow “connect” with them in real terms. That is one of the greatest joys in life… discovering ways to make someone’s day a little brighter.
Great love
You are so right Bruce! I love to meet a total stranger and find our connection. I learn so much more that way!
Bruce, I certainly relate to what you are saying. My primary place of ministry is at my workplace, as that is where I spend 40 hours a week. I try to find small ways to encourage coworkers and patients as we go through the day. When I can do that, not only do I make their day a little brighter, mine is brightened as well! Share the love!
I kind of figured Connie that you did not hold any position at your church. 4 of the 5 contributing writers here on Bold Grace were in leadership positions. I am not sure about Mindy? But I know myself, Bruce, Steve and Cliff were. The reason I asked is that it would be hard for you to see what we see if you had not been in those positions. My guess is that if you spent 10-30 years as we have in those positions you would then have the same view that Cliff and the rest of us do. I am happy for you that you are not in those positions. It is those positions that see what we have seen.What we have seen is not from the pew but from the workings on the inside. And I for one can tell you the body is sick on the inside. You may not see it but is is none the less sick.
Peace
Geo
The word church does not come from the Greek work ecclesia. The word ‘church’ is a direct decedent etymologically of the Greek word ‘kirke’. In Anglo Saxon it’s the word ‘Circe’; she was a character of Greek mythology who was the daughter of the sun god Sol and Perseis. She was supposed to possess great knowledge of magic and venomous herbs, by which she was able to charm and fascinate. With her magic and potions Circe had the power to turn men into animals.
Stranger than fiction ……….. and we wonder the powers of the spirit world as “church” is the common term today. She still charms and fascinates and those under her spell will defend her come hell or high water.
“Come out of her” (Rev 18:4) sounds good to me both inside and out.
and yes and amen Geo, some of us have been inside the belly of the beast and wow do we know the cost
Jack
Geo, Though I hold no position in a church, I grew up as a preacher’s kid and was a deacon’s wife for a number of years until he left me for a younger woman at age 40. I tell you this to say that I’ve had plenty of reason to become disillusioned with churches, and have to a certain extent, but I also realize that not every church everywhere is alike. And that there are many good people in churches (and out) and that much good is done by churches, as well as some not so good things. Just as some families are healthier than others, some churches are healthy and some not so much. I see no reason to totally give up on church (or families) just because of this. You simply cannot generalize your experience to all of Christendom.
If you really understand what I am saying then it really doesn’t matter which position you may take because in either case our counsel is so very limited. The heart unshackled by religion is free to experience the God within and that is all I really care about encouraging in all that visit here. You can not experience the God within through fear. The essence of who we are can only be experienced through absolute unconditional love. The figure may not be 99.9% but I have yet to find or hear about any traditional church that does not have the element of fear. Yes, you can find Unitarian & Universalist churches that do not teach fear but I don’t know of any others. If there are some then please point me to one of them and maybe they will let me hold a meeting. I have asked many traditional churches to let me do just that and I am always turned down.
Connie, Do you think your church would let me hold a meeting? I am not trying to be funny but I think I already know the answer. I am glad you find peace in the church, but for me to support any oganization that teaches fear would no longer be acceptable. As far as the good they do, so do many Muslim groups and yet those same churches that do so much good would condemn the Muslin groups to Hell reagarless of how much good they may do.
The church I attend is far from perfect, but I would not characterize it as teaching fear. I have never heard anything from the pulpit that I would characterize as condemning any other group to hell. In fact, I do not even know what the preacher there believes on that issue, as I have never heard it mentioned. I do get tired of being asked for money, as budget is always an issue. There are other things I could complain about as well, and sometimes do. To be honest, I am not exactly “at peace” in the church, as there are some things there I wish were different. Still, I am not ready to give up on the whole idea of church just because I am not totally pleased with everything that happens in my local congregation. Being a part of a church teaches me that the world does not revolve around me and my little views, and it is good for that if for nothing else.
As for whether the church I attend would let you hold a meeting, Cliff, I really have no idea. We often have had preachers from other denominations come and speak to us and our minister speaks to their churches as well. Not for the purpose of debate, but simply to bring a message that will be of encouragement, and to bring some unity into the often fragmented body of Christ, if only for a little while.
Connie said: “I have never heard anything from the pulpit that I would characterize as condemning any other group to hell.”
Sounds like a healthier group than the last church where I was a member. It was the typical Southern Baptist church. Lots of hellfire and brimstone sermons. In fact, the sermon that pushed me over the edge and made me tell my wife that I was done with church, was one where the pastor gave a list of people BY NAME that were going to burn in hell. He’s still the pastor there. It’s the FBC in Scottsboro, AL. A lot of the people that were members there when I left have also left that church, but most of them are still in other local congregations which may not PREACH hell, but definitely BELIEVE in hell. They can have it if that’s what they want; it’s not for me.
Good to hear that at least your pastor doesn’t scare the congregation with hell.
Jason
Jason, I definitely would have left that church, too. By the way, I live in Florence, Alabama, so we’re practically neighbors!
Hey Bruce thanks for the comments, I appreciate it.
I am not sure how really important it is to know where the word “church” comes from other than to try and show others how smart we are, its just another word of thousands that have ancient mythological beginnings, it is all about what does the word mean in our world today, although it is interesting to know origin thats for sure.
While it is fair to assume church (organized religion) has no use for me and I for it in every traditional sense of the word(not just the issue of hell and fear, but theism in general), I would like to meet with others (the interweb is a pretty weak substitute) and discuss ideas, to encourage and be encouraged, to challenge and be challenged etc..
For my wife and I this would be a “church” within range. Although I do not despair over it, in fact I really enjoy life, when the essence of who we are (consciousness) colors (or begins to) all aspects of life thinking about going/not going to church is about as significant a decision as whether to peel a banana from the top or from the bottom.
yup
Marco
Marco said “I would like to meet with others (the interweb is a pretty weak substitute) and discuss ideas, to encourage and be encouraged, to challenge and be challenged etc..”
I’m with you 100% here, Marco. The only problem is that an institution of organized religion is nothing like that. In my experience, and Connie, correct me if you see it differently… the vast majority of religous businesses (corporations) we call “churches” are far more interested in conforming people to their point of view on all things than being a platform for spiritual exploration and conversation. And that’s OK, because there are a lot of people out there who WANT to be conformed to a certain way of thinking. They find comfort and safety in being told what they should believe about God, and why they should believe it. It’s OK, I understand that need. I had that need (or at least I was told that I had that need) for most of my adult life. I know the attraction. For years and years, I was willing to “eat the meat and spit out the bones” (as Geo would say). I knew when to keep my mouth shut, and I knew when I needed to speak. They told me what to say and how to say it (even though it often went against my better judgment). But at some point, not unlike the new wineskin, I burst at the seams and quickly found myself conveniently on the outside.
Connie, do me a favor. Go up to your pastor and say “I no longer believe in hell. I believe that Christ was who he said he was, and redeemed the whole world to the Father. That is the good news of Jesus Christ! And if that IS the truth, there would be no need for a place of punishment.” It doesn’t matter if you believe it or not… just say the words. I would be extremely interested in the reaction you receive.
Jason, our stories are much alike.
I know it’s not fair to lump all “church businesses” into one basket, but I’ve yet to see a religious institution that did not use fear to control their membership. The fear they preach might not be on the forefront of everyone’s mind and words, but it’s there, sometimes buried buried deep underneath all the fluff, just waiting for the right moment to raise it’s ugly head.
Bruce, Not sure why you think I would do something like that just because someone on the internet wants me to. Pretty bizarre suggestion. I don’t believe in playing games with people just to see their reaction.
Connie, you will never know what they believe until you challenge them. I suggest that, when confronted, they will respond with a message of fear. I have a feeling that they keep their “fear mongering” under wraps and don’t bring it out until they are forced to. If they think you believe the “right things”, then they don’t need to use their fear-weapon. But, if you display a little free-thinking, you might see an entirely different side of things. You say your church doesn’t use fear, well step out of line, and I think you’ll see the truth. Maybe I’m wrong, or maybe you don’t really want to know.
On a positive note, as one that quit the organized church a quarter century ago, I have found those that walk in the deepest places of God dwell much alone with just Jesus. I also believe the greatest advances of and in the Kingdom of God are made through prayer. I love this by Lettie Cowman, an old missionary who wrote much about being alone.
Dare to Be Alone
By Mrs. Charles E. Cowman
“Yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me” (John 16:32).
It need not be said that to carry out conviction into action is a costly sacrifice. It may make necessary renunciations and separations which leave one to feel a strange sense both of deprivation and loneliness. But he who will fly, as an eagle does, into the higher levels where cloudless day abides, and live in the sunshine of God, must be content to live a comparatively lonely life.
No bird is so solitary as the eagle. Eagles never fly in flocks; one, or at most two, ever being seen at once. But the life that is lived unto God, however it forfeits human companionships, knows Divine fellowship.
God seeks eagle-men. No man ever comes into a realization of the best things of God, who does not, upon the Godward side of his life, learn to walk alone with God. We find Abraham alone in Horeb upon the heights, but Lot, dwelling in Sodom. Moses, skilled in all the wisdom of Egypt must go forty years into the desert alone with God. Paul, who was filled with Greek learning and had also sat at the feet of Gamaliel, must go into Arabia and learn the desert life with God. Let God isolate us. I do not mean the isolation of a monastery. In this isolating experience He develops an independence of faith and life so that the soul needs no longer the constant help, prayer, faith or attention of his neighbor. Such assistance and inspiration from the other members are necessary and have their place in the Christian’s development, but there comes a time when they act as a direct hindrance to the individual’s faith and welfare. God knows how to change the circumstances in order to give us an isolating experience. We yield to God and He takes us through something, and when it is over, those about us, who are no less loved than before, are no longer depended upon. We realize that He has wrought some things in us, and that the wings of our souls have learned to beat the upper air.
We must dare to be alone. Jacob must be left alone if the Angel of God is to whisper in his ear the mystic name of Shiloh; Daniel must be left alone if he is to see celestial visions; John must be banished to Patmos if he is deeply to take and firmly to keep “the print of heaven.”
He trod the wine-press alone. Are we prepared for a “splendid isolation” rather than fail Him?
… you got me to thinking…
It’s funny how, we are alone… together.
“Alone” is not the same as “lonely”.
An interesting read: Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism by John Shelby Spong -
I see Connie as LOVING the people in her congregation in spite of what they may or may not believe, knowing full well she/they will not agree on everything anyway, so why cause a division over something that has not come up. Maybe it will be Connie, because of her loving way, someday help them see grace and not fear. (if and when it comes up) I don’t think Connie is supporting teachers of fear but she is sharing what they
know of Jesus and his love. I see you, Connie, as the adult ready to show the babes in Christ the way of grace because you live it before them.
Even grace based thought can become like the Pharasee who was glad he was not like other children of God.
Because he first loved us - Sue
Brand me a “Pharisee” then, because I am glad that I do not hold to the same systems of fear & intimidation theology, that those in christianity do. They are no less perfect in God’s sight than you or me; I’m just glad I’m not part of their religious systems (anymore).
I have never seen this work Sue. I have seen scores with the same M.O., to stay and minister and it hasn’t worked. Not one time. I have on a number of occasions tried myself, even once with a small intimate home fellowship. Either the oppression will finally get you or you will know you are not welcome any more.
Many of us have learned that you cannot remain within the religious system with the idea of bringing Truth to the poor souls that inhabit such. We do not make people pure by mingling with their mixture! One must come out that others might find by our exit that Jesus dwells outside the camp.
Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate. Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach. Hbr 13:12,13
Blessings,
Jack
Thank you, Sue, for articulating that. I don’t always live up to it, but that is what I aspire to become.
Bruce, your suggestion to pose someone a question just to get their reaction is appalling to me. I would never want someone to treat me that way, and I would not do that to anyone else. Open, honest dialogue is one thing. Baiting someone just to get their reaction is another thing altogether. You may see that kind of behavior as being free-thinking and challenging and even “pushing the envelope.” I see it as being immature, unloving, and downright creepy. Might be excused in a 13-year-old kid, but not in an adult.
If our preacher or anyone else gets up and begins to preach or teach what I consider to be in error, then I would speak to him about it. I see no reason to go out of my way to stir up trouble just because I think he may believe something differently than I do. There can never be peace in any group of people, whether it’s a church or a family, if everyone behaves that way. As much as possible, I intend to live at peace with all men - even at church!
Sue wrote:
“Even grace based thought can become like the Pharasee who was glad he was not like other children of God.”
o my god that is the most impressivly provocative thing I have read in a long time, thank you for that stir of consciousness.
Also Connie I hear what you are saying but I don’t think Bruce was intending it the way you are taking it, calm down take 3 deep breaths and look up
Thanks Marco. Good advice.
Jack, I do not think it is my responsibility to “make people pure by mingling with their mixture.” Making people pure is not my job. Loving them is what I need to focus on. God will move people along as He sees fit.
Hey guys, it just occurred to me that I am getting way too intent on trying to get you to see my point of view. It really doesn’t matter whether you see it or not. I’ll just say a couple of more things. Some of the most beautiful lives I’ve ever seen have been lived by men and women who were devoted to their God and their church and who even believed in hell. Some of the most beautiful lives I’ve ever seen have been lived by men and women who chose a different path and did not stay within the boundaries of an organized church. Cliff, you know exactly who and what I’m talking about. I will not choose to speak against either path or say that one path must be chosen by all. I really do have love in my heart for you here at BoldGrace. Please accept my regrets, Bruce, if what I spoke was harsh. Y’all carry on how you see fit and I’ll just keep on doin’ my thing in my little corner of the world.
Connie……what you bring to boldgrace is always of value and I for one hope you will keep bringing it. In my 35 + years of trying to work within the organized church I look back and know that it was a journey I had to take. I know it seems like it but I really don’t have a problem with any particular person in or out of the church. My fight (if you can call it that) is against an oppressive message whether spoken loudly or softly. The message that God will only love us if we buckle under and do or believe right is the central message of the traditional church and I feel called to speak against that message. I know full well that there are well meaning, loving, and kind people through out the churches but that will never make their message any more true. When I do speak out against the message of conditional love I am always attacked by those who are in leadership within the organized church. You are a rare and wonderful christian that I am sure will always be a great example to those around you but I am still convinced that organized religion is nothing less then evil shrouded in good. The good news is that God rescues us in our ignorance and unbelief. The message I teach is that ALL OF US ARE OK, THE MESSAGE OF THE TRADITION CHURCH IS ONLY A FEW ARE OK. I have been in both camps and I speak from my heart when I say the camp I am in now is full of PEACE.
Jack, There are 7 billion people on earth at the present time - so the Christain groups from that number plus other so called fear based religions would be far more than you or I or anyone could bare witness to what works and what does not work. There are many reasons people may not respond to your truth. Sometimes it is not what we have to say but how we say it. Or maybe the person is just not ready to grasp what you have to teach. Sometimes one can destroy another person even with truth. Other people have every right to hold onto what helps them on their journey to truth. 1 Peter 3:15 says “But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts; and be READY always to give as ANSWER to every man that ASKETH you a reason for the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Challenge? Confront? Perhaps that is the reason it usually doesn’t work.
Because he first loved us - Sue
Jason, I will not brand you anything. Other than our Lord you are the only one who knows your heart. You do NOT know the heart of anyone else in or out of churches. There are people who go to church and think very different than the church tenents or even other people in that church, and for reasons too numerous to talk about. I’m very happy for you that you found your truth and it would be gracious of you to give others the same right to find their way to that narrow gate without judgement. I, too, by traditional thought am churchless. But Jesus said where 2 or 3 are gathered in his name he is with us. He said to pray alone in a closet so I know he is also with 1 as well. So I have a church that works for me. I came to this website because I found some truth here - not ALL truth but some truth. May God bless you on your journey. Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue it is a Spirit led walk and I see you and Connie speaking to a “good” that hangs on the wrong tree. “Even’s God’s worst evil is good, while man’s best good is evil.” There is ONE GOOD and one tree of Righteousness and Life. His name is Jesus …….. He is the seed buried in every man and the tree that eventually grows up in every man. Man’s goodness must give way to the One Good.
Morality isn’t the measure of a man and if it be I would be meditating with the Buddhist’s in my town ….. nice moral people and much more so than those here that name Christ and go to church every Sunday. I do a lot of lovin in my community and very little evangelizing …… tis the season as it is also the time to share the Truth with those bound by the law and dead works of organized Christendom.
Having many times been around this mountain with those still hanging to the wrong tree and the wrong church system I will share an excerpt from a well used file made years ago as it also points to the season. This message has held truth for two thousand years but more so today as we come to the end of the “age of the wilderness church”
Mene, Mene, Tekel, Upharsin. The handwriting is on the wall. Thou art weighed in the balances and found wanting is the decree. Let us, therefore, go unto Him without the camp, bearing His reproach. Let us flee to His mountain where we shall be taught of the Lord.
“Woman, believe Me, the hour cometh when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father … But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth; for the Father seeketh such to worship Him. God is a Spirit; and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”
John 4:21-23.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Rev 17:4,5
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double. How much she hath glorified herself,
Rev 18:4-7
And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God. And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters. And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen,
Rev 14:1-8
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
Jack, I have never heard of “age of the wilderness church” is almost over. Where is that taught?
Are you of the Grace faith of this website?
Your post to me reeks of fear. I don’t agree with your position or the way you present it. Sorry.
Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue, these last 2000 years can be called the “the Church Age”, the Pentecostal Age or a number of other descriptive terms. I use the “age of the wilderness church” because it is to me most descriptive of what we have witnessed and been part of. God we have made a mess of things, haven’t we. Plus it the term I use gives a hopeful view that the church will move and is moving into an “age of promise” where the world systems are overcome and peace reigns. That’s the external view that reflects what is taking place more importantly “within.”
Grace is made up of both “judgement” and “mercy” which is embraced in the Cross of Christ. The vain creatures that we all be must die to be resurrected. This is the death of self and yes it is fearful to experience at first. But it is there our vision of Christ and His love is truly known as we share His Cross. With this our view changes and we come to desire that all the corumption of this temporal world is laid to waste within us.
I don’t know what the “Grace faith” is to answer your other question. I pray it is not another way around the Cross that so many in the “UR” persuasions have come to espouse. Many are desiring to take their inheritance on this side of Jordan as the residue practices of the “wilderness church” once again sneak into another restorative move of the church. Such is the way of the carnal man seeking a comfortable religion.
“But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city.” Heb. 11:16
God’s sons are sojourners, heaven bent and not here to gather and take our inheritance on this side of the river. Daniel knew to refuse the pleasant bread and Jesus became the bread worthy of those that followed Him and those that had nary a place to lay their head. Jesus is the pattern son. Like Him we must die to our selves and die to the things of this world to follow Him into Resurrection Life.
“So, likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple.” Luke 14:33
Sue, with that I bid you, “Pick up thy cross pilgrim. We have left the leeks and garlic of Egypt and are moving to the other side of the river.”
In His Sweet Lord Jesus,
Jack
I’ll take my leave today as I don’t want to dominate the comments section of Cliff’s blog. I know some might think I am looking for Heaven after I die but the Kingdom of God or Heaven (synonymous) is progressive and I enjoy and find greater rest each day in His Kingdom.
I also partake of this world on a deeper plane than I ever did before. Relationships are restored, healings manifest and greater hope is realized with each day. I take His love where ever I go and in the doing so I enjoy church everywhere, every day.
Lastly I believe we carry about the Death of the Lord so we may have the Life of the Lord. If we are ready to suffer with Him, we will reign with Him. Jesus said, as He is so are we in the world.
Friends do not be afraid to die; you will rise again.
Jack
Sue- I think many of us forget that we are all on the same journey, but at different points of that journey. My journey, which began over 4 years ago has been progressive. If four years ago I had been introduced to many of the things I hold dear at present, I would have been incredulous, and disbelieving of most. But the revelation of these things has been gradual, as I was ready to receive them. That’s just the way it was meant to be. You are ready to receive some things you hear here, and not ready to receive others.
“When the student is ready, the teacher will appear.”
Jack,
It may be splitting hairs, but I feel that you are hanging onto a mentality of law. You quote Jesus a lot, and what was Jesus doing in most of what you quote?……Teaching God’s law and lifting the law up to a plane that no man could reach. At least that’s my take on what Jesus was doing in most of what we read about him in the NT writings.
Am I reading you wrong, sir?
Jason
Yes Jason, only Christ fulfils the law. The old man wants to work thus the Cross that slays him.
Who can love God with all their heart and their neighbor as themselves?
“Not I, but Christ” Galatians 2:20
Don, I agree that we are all on the same journey, but we are all on different paths. Sometimes we travel along together for a while, then one of us comes to a path that seems more inviting, and we separate. The thing is, sometimes we encounter someone who is on a path that we’ve already traveled, and know that it is the harder way to go. It is full of obstacles and pitfalls. It is rocky and has many steep inclines. Is it fair to warn them?
Life is full of choices and the more freedom we experience in our journey, the less fearful we are to come to the aid of others. And why not? We have nothing to lose (because we have nothing - no ego to stroke, no reputation to uphold, no expectations to satisfy). We sacrifice ourselves for the good of others. We relish the thought of others having what we have, and sometimes boldly recommend a “change of mind” to someone on the less desirable path. We share what we’ve learned and experienced, and if it is helpful, then so be it. And if it is not, then so be it.
The problem with freedom is that it also allows us the liberty to make mistakes. It permits us to take the harder way, if we desire, and learn for ourselves. And that’s OK because life is all about learning. No matter which path we choose, we will learn something from it.
Freedom allows us to spend our lives sitting atop a stinking pile of manure if we like. And it also empowers us to come alongside someone and say “why are you sitting on that stinking pile of manure?” If they respond, “because I like it. It gives me something I can’t find anywhere else!” Then, who are we to argue? We offer our advice and move on, content that they will learn something good from their experience.
Jason wrote:
“Jack,
It may be splitting hairs, but I feel that you are hanging onto a mentality of law. You quote Jesus a lot, and what was Jesus doing in most of what you quote?……Teaching God’s law and lifting the law up to a plane that no man could reach. At least that’s my take on what Jesus was doing in most of what we read about him in the NT writings.”
My question is this….what is wrong with the Law? We are called to be slaves of righteousness not slaves of disobedience. I disagree with you Jason that Jesus was lifting the law up to a plane that no man could reach….but instead He was showing the Pharasee’s what the DIVINE LAW looks like in REALITY….the type/shadow coming to life in TECHNICOLOR….wheww….for Jesus was the LIVING, BREATHING, WALKING FEAST OF TABERNACLES in the flesh. As He is so are we in the earth….and there is coming a day that we too will BE His FULLNESS in the earth….but for now we have just the deposit…but WE SEE JESUS!
I just returned from a glorious trip with my family to share in the Lord’s feast of Tabernacles. Many within christendom no longer celebrate or keep any of the Lord’s feasts although it is a commandment to do so. I do not see these commandments as a burden but a BEAUTIFUL BLESSING. These are His holy appointments…seasons where He is WAITING for us to show up….amazing….how many within churchianity are always ‘looking’ for the latest visitation of the Lord, the latest revival…if only they knew that these “VISITATIONS” are still around today and point to the more glorious picture of the FULLNESS of Christ being given during the FALL FEASTS. Many would argue “but I can visit with Him anytime I want to b/c of what Jesus did for me” and I would agree and yet I would point out that these feasts symbolize HIM WAITING to meet with us…of Him showing up at His set appointed time. For we are His inheritance and He ours.
Jack makes some beautiful comments….and I especially loved what he shared about the root word of ‘church’. I for one am glad that there are brethren that show themselves to be an approved WORKMAN of the Word. How that is needed in this day and hour! I had heard that the word ‘church’ came from the word ‘circus’ but I never understood how that originated….thank you Jack for unfolding that deeper meaning to me.
I have been meditating on Psalm 119 this morning….what a glorious psalm about the beauty of the law. “I will meditate on Your precepts and have respect to Your ways (the paths of life marked out by Your law).
Universal Reconciliation is not a new concept but one that is marked out by the law…THE LAW OF JUBILEE.
Sonship is beautifully pictured in the keeping of the Feast of Tabernacles.
The 10 commandments are the picture of WHAT LOVE LOOKS LIKE AND DOES….for in keeping them we not only love God with all of our hearts but we love our neighbors as ourself. I could go on and on…for my Father has given us such deep wisdom that is made plain to us within His law that helps us with day to day living….(i.e. do not mix the seed….hello….isn’t it funny how organic farming has become so popular…and yet this has always been known to those that have ears to hear and to obey….ect….the list is endless).
I have had the LAW written upon my heart….and I could no longer leave the law as to leave my heart…for it is ONE within me….for CHRIST IS FULL-FILLED within.
Shalom.
Bruce- Very true… When I say the same journey, I am thinking of the final destination for the journey we are all on. How we get to the destination can sometimes be quite circuitous, and distinct (as individuals)
eliyah,
To each his own.
Jason
Writers Note:
The revelation of the personality of Jesus Christ is not in the words we write or in the interpretation and revelation of scripture. It is recognized in the progressively visible demonstration and potency of the healing power, inherent in HIS Life, that WE Live. The reuniting and restoration of the Spirit within, allows us to exhibit more and more of His glory as we learn how to respond to the senses of the Spirit.
Let us realize that what we write today, may be upgraded in His infinite wisdom, by tomorrow.
As we view the various facets of the “Diamond of Truth” from different perspectives, we begin to see its inner brilliance burst forth exponentially, through the many polished aspects of its skillful design.
If we, by lack of vision or by separation, see dimly and presume only one facet as the whole, we miss the pulsating fire of the complete and perfect jewel. Therefore, to gain God’s understanding, we must dare to abandon ourselves to Him, as we allow Him to change us from within. This can be hazardous to a stagnant belief system.
Wes
WELL SAID WES.
THE SCRIPTURES ARE WRITTEN IN OUR HEARTS. WE DON’T NEED THE BIBLE. THE BIBLE IS JUST A BOOK WRITTEN BY MAN. WHY THE NEED TO WORSHIP THE BIBLE AND ITS SCRIPTURES. WHY NOT JUST TRUST YOURSELF?
Do you guys realize that much of what is being said here means that a person is basically just on his own? There is no separate being that is God? Jesus Christ was just another man, perhaps a little more enlightened than most of us, but not really God’s own Son in any kind of special way? If that is what you believe, then you and I don’t have much common ground, it seems. This is way beyond whether to be involved in organized religion. It’s whether you actually believe in God or not.
Jesus was God come in the flesh. Jesus is God dwelling in my heart by His Spirit. “God is sovereign and free will but a vain illusion man holds onto until the Cross has it’s way in his or her life.
It’s all about Jesus ………. and Jesus is the Father in the realm of space and time. These things are revealed through much time spent at Jesus feet away from the crowds and far from man.
“There is no separate being that is God”
when I awakened to that understanding my whole concept/mindset of God collapsed like a house of cards, and I had no other choice but to move on, in the process..
-I realized not one person is on their own and all life is connected as a whole, separate in form, but not in essence, we just don’t always see it and we think we are separate from others or some separate diety we refer to as God…
-I realized Jesus was not just another man but not some reincarnated being from the cosmos either, coming “down”? to rescue, but one who lived a full humanity and pointed to realm within…
-I realized fundamentalism/literalism have done more to keep my eyes closed to a living reality in God(Spirit) than I could have ever thought imaginable, at best when you peel the layers back and burn off all the chaff you just might discover some treasure, meaning and substance well beyond taking things literally, a treasure that remained unseen as I looked through the lenses of fundamentalism/literalism.
Jack wrote:
“Morality isn’t the measure of a man and if it be I would be meditating with the Buddhist’s in my town ….. ”
maybe not, but what is the good of a man who does not contribute to and make this world a better place?
Also what would be wrong in meditating with a Buddhist? Is not the kingdom within him the same as the kingdom within you? Is our faith more about being right or is it about Being? As if some how we are right in the first place? Can we see this is the problem with “beliefs” in the first place? Are we after a spirit filled life or a belief based life?
The goodness of the ego is as filthy rags, that is a goodness that is self serving, for the sake/survival of ego-false self (old man Paul called it),
we go to so much effort in separating mans goodness from Gods goodness as if true goodness from any man is anything but Gods goodness…
there is my ramble for today
Marco
Connie- God is the I AM. He is “being” itself. He is not “out there” separate from us. He is energy. He is source. There is nothing that is NOT him. Every particle that has been created is a part of God. Jesus had a father-consciousness that allowed him to be in closer relationship to our Source (he called him father because he IS) than anyone that I have ever studied about. Is he unique as you say. I would agree that he is in one sense of the word. He is not like any other religious figure, he is unique. But we are ALL unique. But in the popular CHristian usage, the uniqueness of Jesus is most commonly tied to the notion that he is the uniquely and exclusively true revelation of God. It is this meaning that I would have to disagree with. He is God’s son as we are all God’s sons. We are one in the same, from the same source, made of the same stuff (energy). He said he longs for all of us to be (realize that) we are one. When Jesus said “I and the father are one”, that IMO is what he meant. I long for the day when our “beliefs” about God and about Jesus will not get in the way of our following Jesus’ injunctions to “love God with all our hearts…. and to love our neighbors as ourselves.
My, this is bizzare.
Is this which Marco and Don R share given credence by this site? Is this the common fare and an accepted message here on BoldGrace?
If that be the case Connie is of right thinking in her last post as that which Marco and Don write is just plain ol’ blasphemous New Age riff-raff. I am surprised these two didn’t end their messages with “Nemanste” or “Allahu Akbar.”
Connie….
I give Jesus the PRE-EMINENCE in all things….it was Him alone that was slain from the foundation of the earth and that bled and died on the cross for the salvation of ALL men….no one else paid that price and this is why He is so worthy of all praise and glory.
Anyone that would put themselves on the same par or equal footing of Jesus has fornicated with the Man of Lawlessness….plain and simple.
In Him is LIFE and LIGHT….He is the Word made flesh and is the seed within…and as we are renewed by His Word ( the letter that is quickened by the Breath of the Spirit) we are changed into His image from glory to glory and faith to faith…we die to self and He is resurrected within…until we BECOME one with Him…but it takes 2 to become ONE.
No! Marco the kingdom that is within the buddist is not the same as the kingdom that is within those that have been translated out of the kingdom of darkness into the kingdom of God’s dearly loved Son.
I love all men…for I am of my Father and have been called to a ministry of reconciliation and LIFE and so I do not condemn the buddist and eventually the buddist too will be saved…each man in his own order. I speak the truth forth plainly & in so doing I commend myself to God and men.
It doesn’t matter one squat to me whether you like what I have said or not…but what matters is that my Father approves of what I speak…and I only speak that which my Father says.
Connie….bottom line….Sit at the feet of the Lord Jesus…for in so doing you choose the better part. As far as the Harlot system….scripture is clear…”come out of her my people so that you will not partake of her plagues’….May His grace be given to you to follow and obey Him.
Shalom.
TO ALL:
What this site is about is a place where all are welcome. It does not mean all will be in agreement. I have never in my 56 years seen any group of people agree in total on any particular message or idea. What we strive to present here is very simple. Those of us who started this site believe that God (what ever that might mean to you) loves us ALL UNCONDITIONALLY and that nothing we can do or believe will ever change that. Yes, we do reject other messages out there that have conditions to a relationship with God. And yes we do reject the traditional churches message because it is full of CONDITIONS, but we still welcome and accept the people who choose to go or not go to church. We NEVER condemn them and yet we are often condemned as many openly do that in their comments. We may disagree but there is a big difference between that and condemning others.
Peace,
Cliff
Thinking about the “ministry of reconciliation”… I used to think that it was our duty to go around compelling people to reconcile with God, lest they be tormented forever. I used fear tactics and threatened condemnation to those who did not (or would not) take the necessary steps to “get right” with God. Dear Lord, I regret that deeply.
Now, it is my joy to let people know that, because of Christ, they ARE reconciled to the Father. I love to tell them that whether they believe it or not, they ARE reconciled to God. And if they can wrap their minds around that, they can begin to enjoy a life of liberty in an abundance of pure love.
Sadly, freedom in Christ is only for the free, and many are not ready to trust Jesus that much. They are afraid to connect with the Christ who resides in all of us for fear of… well, God! Why? Because they don’t know God. They don’t understand the message of the Cross, and the righteousness it brought to all mankind.
Sad indeed… but oh for joy, the end will bring victory to all! I am convinced with all my heart and mind that God’s grace is that BOLD! But, I can’t convince ANYBODY of ANYTHING. It has to come from within you. Deep inside all of us is the Word of God, patiently waiting for us to awaken to His incredible love. We will all realize it at some point. Some sooner, some later, but all will. Look forward to the day when your burdens are lifted and your heart is set free from the terroristic fear that has been slapped on us along the way by religion, culture, society, and family. The day is coming. Rejoice in knowing that, while you journey toward the revelation of the Kingdom!
I guess what still bothers me is that one of the founders of BoldGrace states that “we don’t need the Bible” and “why not just trust yourself?” Which is, as Jack said, basically plain ole New Age riff-raff. As my dad used to say (quoting someone else, I’m sure), “A man wrapped up in himself makes a mighty small package.”
We don’t condemn men’s souls to hell but Jesus had some strong words for the apostates of His time. He spoke by righteous judgement to the foul spirits that drove such men. We are told to practice the same.
Cliff what you are practicing is the “New Tolerance” and it goes hand in hand with the New Age philosophies. I will ask you to remove “JACKSON HOLE & CHRIST” from your blog roll as I care not to be associated with such practices. Inclusion is as wide as the Cross of Christ and although vain men think they can find another way around that Tree it always ends poorly and is most often sorely remedied in another aion.
Jack
Connie, The Word existed long before the bible. And The Word is fully capable of revealing itself through any means it deems necessary. Open your heart and your mind, and try to see how limited our understanding is. Deep within yourself is a power so incredible, and so pure, it can open the universe to you. Even the bible says, “Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory”.
I love this line from revelation:
Then:
And what does Moses represent? The LAW - the requirements, the obligations, the rules, the expectations… just as today, it is THIS that accuses God’s creation.
Dear friends, I am not here to place any requirement of belief on you. I am only here to confirm to those who are hearing the voice of God from within that they are hearing correctly. God is in you. You can trust him. He loves you deeply and will never forsake you, no matter what.
I have complied with your request to remove your link, Jack.
I hope that someday we can be friends. It saddens me that your religion is more important than other human beings. But, that’s OK. You are always welcome here even though we may disagree. Maybe someday you’ll convince us to convert back to your view. Who knows? But, I certainly understand why you wouldn’t want to associate with people who don’t believe correctly. Correct belief is more important than love.
May you live well!
WOW!!!!!!!!!!
Peace
Geo
Jack, I’m sorry you feel the need to label me. I have studied the bible my entire adult life and it has never led me to judge the way you have judged me. Regardless the Christ in my still salutes the Christ in you and you will always be welcome here even if you choose to be harsh in your comments.
Bruce, Yes, I know the Word existed long before the Bible. And how do I know that? I learned it from the book of John in the Bible.
I also know that I have a very limited understanding of God, as He is infinite and I am not. I believe in the indwelling of the Spirit, as Jesus Himself taught that clearly, also recorded in the book of John. I know that He will never forsake me, as that is in the book of Hebrews. I would not even know who Jesus Christ is were it not for the Bible. So, I am not willing to cast the Bible aside as if it is of no importance.
As for the statement: “I am only here to confirm to those who are hearing the voice of God from within that they are hearing correctly.” How could you possibly know that everyone who reads those words is hearing correctly the voice of God from within?! I have personally known many people through the years who thought they were acting on the voice of God, and later realized they were only acting on what they THOUGHT was the voice of God and actually it was their own misguided ideas and much harm resulted from their actions.
Okay, now I think I need to let all this go. And spend some quality time relaxing with Barney, my laid-back Basset Hound.
Cliff, You said to Connie, “you are a rare and wonderful christian” which implies you know the hearts of all christians and have the right to pass judgement. On top of that you then shroud her in evil because she attends a church you believe teaches a wrong message. Sounds like condemnation to me. You may have been in both camps but you have not been in all camps. Turning the tables, would you let one from a tradional belief preach from your pulpit in your church building AND not say anything about what they preached? When any of us goes out into the world to a restaurant or theater or any other building that houses people we are in the company of all beliefs, so how is it that a “church” building is any different? According to you they too would be shrouded in evil and you would not have anyplace to go. It also seems that your relatives or good friends or those that agree with you get your praise. You have answered a few ?’s for me and told me I have a right to disagree but I get your silence when it comes to my thoughts and no comment when I disagree. Sounds like how you say you were treated by the churches. Oh, I don’t want your praise but sometimes the silence is deafening. From what I have read Connie just wants to have her say and the same respect for her choices that you seem to seek from churches. I have learned from you both good things and some I discard and I like the idea of a free forum but sometimes it does not feel free. Because he first loved us - Sue
Sue, I apologize if you think I have been silent to you. I rembember distincly writing an entire post about some of your questions and other questions you have asked I felt like were answered by others. As far as condemning any person, you will not find that in any of my posts or comments. I happen to know Connie very well and if I knew you I am sure I would be able to make the same comment. Connie knows that I disagree with her and she also knows just as much how much I love her. As I have said over and over and will say once again the difference between how I disagree and how most christians disagree:
When I disagree I still accept fully the person I am disagreeing with as my brother or sisteer and I know they are completely loved by God just as I am.
When most christians disagree with me they reject me, disfellowship me, label me, accuse me, and condemn me to HELL.
I think any reasonable person can see the difference in the approach I take and the approach most christians take.
As for Connie, I called her rare because she is one of a handful of traditional chrisitians who can disagree with me and still accepts me not only as her cousin but as her brother. Yes, she is quite rare.
Peace,
Cliff
LOL Oh my, Cliff and Bruce.
I am one that came into the message of “Universal Reconciliation and God All In All” a quarter century ago. Over the years I have seen all the perversions that have tried to attach themselves to this glorious message.
There were “the sweet soul-poisoners that spoke smooth things” of Jeremiah’s day. Every generation has them. These have been appointed to try those that would be found as called, chosen and faithful sons. Understanding your purpose I can say I love you while I also say to the spirits that move you, “Adios, serpentinas.”
We’ll get together maybe in the next age with Jesus at the head of table.
Jack
PS and you might tell Mike Williams to quit merchandising and Bishop Pearson to rid himself of the title and Roman collar. It doesn’t take much discernment to spot the perversion. Yeah let’s have meeting! LOL
I have never known a finer person then Mike Williams. I don’t know Bishop Pearson. As far as telling them how to live their lives I would not do that any more then I would tell you how to live yours. It is fair for you to judge our message here at boldgrace but it is on your conscience when you judge us personally to have satanic spirits that are guiding us. It must be enlighting to know so much about our motives.
“It must be enlighting to know so much about our motives.”
No Cliff it often breaks my heart
And most salesmen such as Mike Williams are usually thought of as the nicest of guys. You don’t peddle the Word as this man does and only a deceitful spirit will defend such!
But hey “we don’t judge” ……… that’s the catch all with you guys.
God help the little ones that are looking for Jesus. Can’t show them the real Jesus from the counterfeits lest you be accused of judging. Oh my friend, I know this foul game and it doen’t take long to spot the players.
Shame on you guys. You are so new to this message you don’t know who’s coming or going as you allow every foul thing imaginable to stand beside Jesus!
Jack
Funny, I don’t think I could picture Jesus at the “head of the table”. I know you only meant that figuratively, Jack. But, as I envisioned that scenario, I can’t help but think that Jesus would seat himself at the least visible, most unwanted seat at the table. Maybe I’m all mixed up, but that’s the way I see it.
It has always amazed me how some see Jesus as the demanding master, ready to turn away from anyone who didn’t bow down to him. I guess I used to think of him that way. That’s what religion taught me. But at some point, I must have had a change of heart. The Jesus I now know is a warm, kind, humble, gentle, lover of souls… all souls… and one who is filled with a perfect peace and an unexplicable joy.
Jack, I’m not new to this message. I have stood my ground for over 35 years and I’m not a novice when it comes to the bible. Might I ask if you have ever talked with Mike Williams? Do you know his heart? Do you know his struggles? Do you know what he has given up in order to preach the message of grace and peace? Well, I do, and I also know you speak out of ignorance when you slander him and I for one will not allow that without giving my two cents about who Mike is. He is a gentle giant that has suffered more then most humans ever think of and yet he still gives all he has to tell the story of the Perfect Love Of Jesus.
I would encourage anyone to listen to Mike’s audios and make their own judgement as to what he teaches and why. You can click on “AUDIO” at the top of the screen and listen to some of his lessons for FREE.
Jack,
Wish you the best and I wish you weren’t so mad.
Connie said, ” guess what still bothers me is that one of the founders of BoldGrace states that “we don’t need the Bible” and “why not just trust yourself?”
I am Mindy “a girl” who posted this comment. I wish I could say I was a founder, but I am someone who acknowledged Grace on my own and choose to share my thoughts. We all are not going to agree on everything and when I post or comment I am ONLY speaking for myself. This is not a cult, an organization, a church or a freak show. It is a place where people get together because of this acknowledgment of Grace and choose to share their thoughts and experiences. You do want you want with my information, but why let it “bother” you soo much?
I like that, Mindy. And you touched on something that I see so often in these conversations…
An angry God creates angry people.
Sorry Mindy, from comments that had been made in the past, I thought you were one of the group who started this site. And I was under the impression that one of the purposes of this site is to let people know about the grace that is to be found in a relationship with Jesus Christ. So, it was confusing when I read that someone I thought was a part of that group was so dismissive of the Bible, which is where we find the details of His life and message. Please accept my apology for the confusion.
I honestly have no hard feelings toward anyone on this site with whom I may disagree. Opinions are just that to me and have nothing to do with whether we can be in relationship with each other. That is what I saw modelled growing up, and seems very natural to me. I sometimes forget it’s not that way for everyone.
Funny, I don’t think I could picture Jesus at the “head of the table”. I know you only meant that figuratively, Jack. But, as I envisioned that scenario, I can’t help but think that Jesus would seat himself at the least visible, most unwanted seat at the table. Maybe I’m all mixed up, but that’s the way I see it.
It has always amazed me how some see Jesus as the demanding master, ready to turn away from anyone who didn’t bow down to him. I guess I used to think of him that way. That’s what religion taught me. But at some point, I must have had a change of heart. The Jesus I now know is a warm, kind, humble, gentle, lover of souls… all souls… and one who is filled with a perfect peace and an unexplicable joy.
No Bruce, Jesus is the head and there is the beginnings of your wayward philosophy. If you were to run a word search of “Arnion” on my blog you would find I write much on “Jesus, the little lambkin slain” and how in service Christ reigns. I always lift Jesus above all, thus He will ever sit at the head of the table. Jesus also wasn’t a pantywaist and was a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. Pal I know the deceitful games you play, twisting and turning to accommodate your blasphemous liberality. I also believe Jesus wouldn’t have minced words with you either. He sure didn’t like the phonies.
And Cliff by the way never in all my years have I ever charged or even asked for a donation as I shared the Word. If there is any thing people are waking up to it is the merchandising that always accompanies the poison. You throw Mike Williams up on your site you throw up one Jesus would have thrown out of the temple! And don’t tell me about the cost this man has paid. If he had truly known the cost he would never charge.
There are a few at my site that know what I have been through and still go through to publish the message of Christ. They wept when they found out. So don’t go tellin me about this sweet guy that sells Jesus!
You guys will go to any length and legitimize anything to keep from the Cross. I know you. I know your ways. I have spent months amongst the New Age/New Tolerance groups.
Not angry …. not mad ………. because as I said before you guys are purposed by God to try the souls of the faithful. Sometimes he calls me into places like this to identify the wolves and now I believe my work is done here. This has been an easy one, as you have readily identified yourselves.
Good evening,
Jack
As I have watched things unfold in this blog, I do not see it as negative, I just see His Bold Grace upon Grace upon Grace. This is a rich sight, Love in and through us is truly the manifestation of God. Love thinks no evil, because it see’s no evil. We see through Doves eyes, not ignorant but redeemed. Single eyed we see the Body(All Humanity) full of Light. So simple folks.
Love Jeff.
Jack Wrote:
Not angry …. not mad ………. because as I said before you guys are purposed by God to try the souls of the faithful
Jack,
WOW! There was and will only EVER be ONE who WAS and IS Faithful!
And you AIN’T IT! Jesus was the only one who was EVER faithful! It is His Faith that cleanses and made all pure not yours mine or anyone elses.
Jack Wrote:
Sometimes he calls me into places like this to identify the wolves and now I believe my work is done here
SINCE YOUR WORK IS DONE HERE WE WILL TRUST YOU WILL NOT COMMENT ANY LONGER? OR DID YOU LIE TO US WITH THAT STATEMENT? Thus making you the “so called” wolf! I know you will answer because you can’t resist. I would say we are going to miss you here but I know again you will be back and we can talk more when you return.
Until your return
Peace and Goodbye
Geo
Is it safe to come out yet?
For the record, I never said that Jesus wasn’t the head, I said I didn’t see him as taking a seat at the head of the table. He saw himself as a servant to all, and even stated that the one “who was least, would be first”. That is so incredibly humbling to me. It is an attitude of love that draws me in. Thank God I no longer have to force myself to love a God who demands it through penalty of eternal punishment (for not believing correctly). Instead, he draws me to himself through a most amazing love.
On another note, I have never liked it when people ask for money to share the word. But, I understand Mike Williams motivations. Here is a guy who has an incredible message to share, and a wonderful way of sharing it. People from all over the country ask Mike to come teach them what he knows, and Mike loves to meet those requests. But he is not a rich man, and is not able to fund these trips on his own. The groups requesting him try to help him with his expenses, but sometimes fall short. So Mike solicits funds from his friends to help with those travels. I can accept that. I know Mike. I have spent time with him… eaten with him… traveled with him… heard him teach… and sat with him in small settings to simply talk. And I can tell you that his grip on the message of the gospel of Christ is like none I’ve ever seen. He speaks with love and clarity, and from a position of learning and first-hand experience.
Maybe sought-after teachers like Jack are independently wealthy and can meet the nationwide requests for their presence with their own funds, but I know if I was ever asked to visit a distant place, I would have to ask for help. It’s simple economics. I’m not a rich man.
Yes Jeff, isn’t amazing how our words reveal our hearts? And what a revealing contrast of hearts we see as we read these interactions. I guess it’s true when they say that “whoever God is to us, is what we become to others.” If our God is an angry taskmaster, full of demands and requirements, expecting perfection, and hard to please… then we will be too. But if our God is pure love, full of acceptance and inclusion… then we will be also.
And yes, Julia. Like the Kingdom, this is a safe place. Come on in, the water’s fine! It will hold you up effortlessly, and soak you with wonderful peace!
Jack…your unnecessary judgments are harsh, but they are unleashed and they are yours. You come across very angry and if you only really knew all of us here you might not be so judgmental.
I feel the need to have to say this to anyone out there reading our posts and comments. If you are angered by what we feel and say then why hang around for more? I can understand hanging around due to an interest you might have in what we feel and say, but if you are truly angered by these words then I would understand why you would feel the need to go.
When I was going to the Churches I was never truly happy and most of the time angered by what I was hearing so I made the choice to leave. It wasn’t easy, but I knew in my heart it wasn’t right for me. It was the best choice I ever made. Through that choice I found Grace and I am happy. I am growing more and more everyday. My only wish is for everyone to feel this way. Don’t be mad and scared. Be happy and confident!
Mindy,
“Jack” is not scared….hardly. No, the Lord’s beloved John walks as Yahshua walked and has zeal for Father’s house (the holy temples not made with hands) and with this same zeal that Yahshua had he is FIERCE in His love for the children of Yahweh to be protected from anything that would defile, corrupt, or molest them.
It is said by many psychologist’s that pedophiles really ‘love’ children and yet any GOOD and PROTECTIVE parent would never let such a foul beast into their child’s bedroom. Those who have written ‘Love thinks no evil, because it see’s no evil̵