BoldGrace

Glenn Klein ONLINE

Our friends Glenn Klein and Mike Williams

Peace Geo

Geo Nov 8th 2008 11:47 am Audio, Geo, Oneness, Truth 103 Comments Trackback URI Comments RSS

103 Responses to “Glenn Klein ONLINE”

Cliffon 08 Nov 2008 at 1:05 pm link comment

Geo,

Unable to hear anything. Is it me or how you uploaded it?
geoon 08 Nov 2008 at 3:44 pm link comment

I changed it to a different location. click the arrow now and wait about 30 seconds and see if it starts to play

Peace
Geo
geoon 08 Nov 2008 at 4:37 pm link comment

by the way they address Jack’s condemnation of Mike so called merchandising of the Gospel. Click the arrow and wait for audio to load or speed it up to about the 10:40 mark and listen to them discuss Jack’s issue and money.
WORTH THE WAIT!

Peace
Geo
Jack Hennesseyon 15 Nov 2008 at 7:03 am link comment

Ha ha! Can this Williams possibly do any more selling! The guy is unabashed in his desire for filthy lucre. This shrewd thief has surely got the wedge of gold and the fine Babylonian garment hidden in his tent (Joshua 7).

I have suffered a couple of these broadcasts and they are nothing but hype with no substance. Sounds like a couple loud used car salesmen or even the banter of some carnival hawkers. This Williams guy ain’t leading no revolution. He is dead in the waters with but a Rigamortised hand grasped to Bishop Carlton Pearson’s clerical gown. How often have we seen this same sad story played out, over and over.

I even told some friends before this big Houston get together (was there even 35 people that paid the $99.00 fee) that this will produce little but more CD’s to be peddled. Got to feed the insatiable beast the Harlot rides on.

This is a fine writing that contrasts the ways of the Mike Williams of this world and the way of Truth in Christ Jesus. And yes this message is “free”

“And They Will Make Merchandise of You”
Link removed at commenter’s request

Jack
Jack Hennesseyon 15 Nov 2008 at 7:36 am link comment

and George, knowing how you phonies twisted to defend Williams’ blatant merchandizing I’ll leave you with this word which I had on file. It speaks to my sentiments exactly. This is a good and righteous word.

Merchandising Worship and Spiritual Truths

Matt. 10:8b …freely ye have received, freely give.

New Testament Precedent

When Jesus spoke these words, He was sending His disciples out to minister healing, deliverance, and proclaim the message of the Kingdom.

After Pentecost, we see the Spirit of God motivating the early church to give what they had to those in need, not considering what they had their own. This meant rejecting the way the world operates and sacrificing for the people of God; offering all for the love of the brethren.

Real kingdom change and love caused Paul to lay down his life for people, and remove all obstacles that might possibly bring question and disrepute to the name of Jesus. That is why Paul at times worked with his hands to support himself, not taking money from those he ministered to so as not to have anyone question his motives. Was it wrong to accept support and gifts from God’s people? No! But, the amount given and whether to give originates in the heart of the giver, not the one receiving.

The Ways of the World in the Church

Paul did not put a price tag on his hit series “Corinthians”. There were no copyrights or royalty fees for people to use psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs in early church meetings. In fact, Simon the sorcerer was rebuked for trying to buy the gifts of the Spirit. But now, many things pertaining to the Spirit have a price tag.

I imagine the merchandisers in the temple were not much different then the sellers of spiritual things today. No one seemed to have any qualms about the services provided for a fee in the temple except Jesus. The Pharisees seemed rather shocked at the offense Jesus took to the merchandising practices. Surely not everyone selling in the temple had evil intentions; it was simply how they did “Temple worship”.

We do “Church” the same today. Today’s practice of selling books, cd’s, copyrights, and royalties of things given by and for God seems as natural as breathing to much of the church. You may not like to hear this, but it IS going to change. I will even say, “Thus saith the Lord, This WILL change!”

……… If there were a free option as well as the option to buy the hard copies or cd’s and bless the authors and Christian artists, I would buy as I was able. As a matter of principle, I usually do not purchase Christian books or music unless there is an option to receive it freely. This is not out of anger or bitterness, but out of a determination to live by the principle of “Freely you have received freely give” with the spiritual treasure God has entrusted to me.

I pray what God has shown me will help anyone who has ears to hear.

In His Love

KRISTON COUCHEY
Geoon 15 Nov 2008 at 8:27 am link comment

Hello again Jack and Followers of Jack

Just a little FYI for you.
If you look over to the left in our links section you will see there is FREE STUFF here

http://gospelogic.com/audio.htm

and

here http://boldgrace.com/audio/

and here

http://www.glennkleinonline.com/webcast/guests/mwilliams.html

Thanks again for your input.

Peace
Geo
Sueon 15 Nov 2008 at 9:13 am link comment

Jack,

Hello! There are many things that are given freely – rape, murder, stealing, “FREE” does not make it holy. The bible also says that one who delivers the gospel can be and was paid with offerings – it cost someone something. You are confusing selling Jesus with selling ones opinion – 2 very different things. You belabor dead points.

Did you read my post to you on other sites?

Glad you are back – Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliffon 15 Nov 2008 at 3:56 pm link comment

Jack, When I was a pastor of a little country community chapel for over 17 years they paid me a meager salary that hardly covered my expenses…….Are you telling me that was wrong? And when is it right for someone to receive money for their work in religious circles?

Don’t get me wrong…..I also see your side of this and that’s why I have spent many hours teaching and offering my bible knowledge on this site for absolutely FREE.

Thirdly, Couldn’t you make your point without being so mean spirited about it?

Peace,

Cliff
Jeff & Kateon 15 Nov 2008 at 6:18 pm link comment

Brother Jack: Peace Love and mung beans: You strengthen my beliefs Jack that it is not about our beliefs. but about The Fathers belief in us in what He did and what He completed. He looked at the work of Calvary and said very good. God has accepted you and I into the beloved Jack, you and I are only separated by a fragmented mindset of incompletion.
WE are completely completed, perfectly perfected, the Father was succesful wasn’t He Jack ?
We are in Him and that is the Truth, Love you Bro.
Jeff and Kate.
Jack Hennesseyon 15 Nov 2008 at 6:42 pm link comment

Jack, When I was a pastor of a little country community chapel for over 17 years they paid me a meager salary that hardly covered my expenses…….Are you telling me that was wrong? And when is it right for someone to receive money for their work in religious circles?
____________________

Yes, I will tell you a salary is a horrible practice and if you had the mind of Christ you would know exactly why. As far as your question it has been clearly answered in both the linked article and Kriston’s message.
____________________

Don’t get me wrong…..I also see your side of this and that’s why I have spent many hours teaching and offering my bible knowledge on this site for absolutely FREE.
____________________

Matt. 10:8b …freely ye have received, freely give.
It’s really pretty simple isn’t it. Only a deceitful spirit will dirty the waters surrounding this topic as it has been laid out.
___________________

Thirdly, Couldn’t you make your point without being so mean spirited about it?
_________________

I have had three response and every one carried some deceit. Do you not think there is discernment!

“But He turned and rebuked them, and said, You do not know what manner of spirit you are of.” Luke 9:55

Jack
Cliffon 15 Nov 2008 at 7:20 pm link comment

Thanks for your answers Jack. We don’t agree but you consistantly stand your ground and I am very much at peace with letting the folks decide for themselves.
Jack Hennesseyon 15 Nov 2008 at 8:16 pm link comment

Cliffon 15 Nov 2008 at 7:20 pm link comment
Thanks for your answers Jack. We don’t agree but you consistantly stand your ground and I am very much at peace with letting the folks decide for themselves.

Yes Cliff, and I would hope that any that would respond further would pray and read this writing first. This brother lays it out clearly.

“And They Will Make Merchandise of You”
Link removed at commenter’s request
Cliffon 15 Nov 2008 at 11:18 pm link comment

Jack, I went to the site you suggested and you quoted from a book from a man named Watchman Lee who by the way sells his book and as merchandise for profit. Also at the end of that very long article there are others you quote from who (guess what) are merchandising there books for profit.

It seems to me like you choose to criticize those you don’t agree with but wink at those you do agree with.

Allow me also to quote from your hero J. Preston Ebby:
“KINGDOM BIBLE STUDIES are sent free to anyone upon request. God’s Word is always free to all. God’s way is, “Freely you have received, freely give” (Mat. 10:8). We trust God to lay it upon the hearts of those He chooses to provide the means for publishing and sending out these Studies. We do not have anything to sell.”

He talks about free merchandis to anyone upon request and then he lays a guilt trip on them that he trusts God will lay it on their hearts to give him their money. That is the same tactics that Oral Roberts has used for years. Yes, it is a little more subtle but he is just as guilty.

You can also look at others that you often quote and you will find them selling their books for profit.

So, I agree that our readers should look at the article you suggest, but they should dig a little deeper and they will find you are just as guilty as what you condemn others for.
Jeff & Kateon 15 Nov 2008 at 11:26 pm link comment

Sorry for this long post, Kate and I were asked to write an article for a network of pastors on where we see the “church” today. Love to have comments.

It would appear our beliefs have separated us for 2000 years. Through our beliefs we’ve become denominations, cults, separatists, independents, heretics, home groups, mega churches, micro churches, exclusionists, inclusionists. Even our very closest friends in Christianity don’t believe ‘just like us’. There are things we could argue and disagree about because we don’t see it like they do, or they don’t see it like we do. Well who’s right? Them or us? Who’s beliefs is God going to be most happy with? Theirs or ours? It is the ‘them and us’ mentality that I believe needs to be swallowed up of ‘oneness’. Our doctrines have become denominations. Our knowledge and beliefs have become weapons. The one thing that has blurred the truth is our beliefs. Walls of belief have stopped people from freely entering the truth of their true identity.

The children of Israel were hindered from entering into the experience of the Promised Land because of their ‘unbelief’. It would seem that belief has caused just as much trouble as unbelief has because they both divide.
Hebrews 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

What a joy it is to know that at the point of Jesus’ death, all had forsaken him. There was not one who believed. When Jesus died, he bore the sin of the world. Could the perfect, redeeming sacrifice of Jesus Christ have also taken the sin of unbelief? Could Jesus have taken our belief and our unbelief? Could he have absorbed the shortfall of both our faith and our faithlessness?

Paul said ‘Have the faith OF God’.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

So, if we have the faith OF God and that faith is not of ourselves, it is up to God to persuade and convince us. The work of trying to attain and build our own faith so that God will find us pleasing sons and faithful servants is not ours to attain. We are pleasing sons and faithful servants because of the righteousness of Jesus Christ which has been imputed freely to each and every one of us. The work of trying to have faith and believe in something is not my problem – it is God’s to persuade me.

Hebrews 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

The writer of Hebrews is talking about the Old Testament/pre-cross brethren here. Three words stand out and when we look at the mood of them in the Greek it is very interesting.

The word ‘seen’ is of our action; it is likened to when we see something new. With all truth in Christ we can say ‘Yes, I can see that’, but then we try to get faith, by continual confession, by being positive and refusing bad negative reports. Having heard and read much of the multitude of self-help sermons and books, how many of us have succeeded? Is it something just for the ‘elite’? The hours and days and months and years we have spent trying to move the mountains – waiting and waiting and waiting. We exhibited great endurance but to very little affect; but man, how we have honestly tried!

Well, give up and stop!

The next word is ‘persuaded’ or ‘to convince’, this word is in the passive mood. The subject (which is you) does not do anything. God persuades, God convinces, it is His action. Look up the word ‘faith’ it means: to persuade and convince. The next word is ‘embrace’ and it is your action. So, YOU see, GOD persuades, YOU embrace. It is His faith not yours. This has brought so much rest in my life. I find my walk in Jesus very easy because He proves His word – not me!

We’ve got to be prepared to let go of our beliefs. It’s OK. We HAVE to do it. Things we thought were stepping stones have turned out to be stumbling blocks to the church. For instance, what do we call ourselves? Truth is progressive, and if we are progressing we won’t have time to stop and make a comfortable camp on any particular truth. It’s when we set up camp on a specific truth and colonize it, we denominize it, the sum of that truth becomes us and it becomes a stumbling block to our perception of the whole truth. Let’s journey on together in the ‘rest’ of God that has been previously colonized for us through the channel of the faith of Jesus Christ the Messiah.

The best thing we can do is to comprehend together with all the saints, the height, depth, breadth, and length of the LOVE of God. I found it interesting to ponder these four dimensions of the love of God. We know and understand only three dimensions. Perhaps there’s another dimension already existing that we are yet to comprehend.

The word ‘comprehend’ means: to receive fully, or to realize. We have come to the realization that it’s not about what I believe, or what you believe, or what the person down the road believes, but it is ALL about what God believes about us. What’s God’s opinion of humanity? His son, the spotless sacrifice, died once for the sin of the world, and has successfully taken away that sin. From God’s perspective, the world is redeemed, and people are the image of his Son. Christ in you is the hope of glory. But our taught belief systems do not allow us to see the world that way. I was amazed to discover lately, that the word ‘glory’ in the Thayers concordance means: ‘the view and opinion of God – the judgment of God’. What is God’s judgment of the inhabitants of the earth? Jesus’ sacrifice declared everyone he died for ‘Not Guilty’, and I can’t think of anyone that he didn’t die for. He died once for all. He became sin, and we became righteousness. It was a transaction that occurred between Father and Son 2000 years ago. Do we really believe that a person’s ignorance of their redeemed condition can reverse the universally cataclysmic transaction that took place? One side of the cross, everyone was ‘Adam’ – the other side of the cross, everyone is ‘Christ’. The Father views everyone as perfect, righteous, and holy, because the sacrifice of the ‘Last Adam’ was perfect, righteous, and holy. The high priest never inspected each individual person before declaring Israel ‘clean’ for another year, he inspected the sacrifice. In the same way Father does not judge you by your own righteousness, or holiness, or perfection, but he inspected the sacrifice, and saw it was absolutely perfect. Christ is our life and he’s appearing.

(1 Corinthians 13:8) Love never fails [never fades out or becomes obsolete or comes to an end]. As for prophecy (the gift of interpreting the divine will and purpose), it will be fulfilled and pass away; as for tongues, they will be destroyed and cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].
(1 Corinthians 13:9) For our knowledge is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect), and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect).
(1 Corinthians 13:10) But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void, and superseded).
(1 Corinthians 13:11) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child; now that I have become a man, I am done with childish ways and have put them aside.
(1 Corinthians 13:12) For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then [when perfection comes] we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God].

A lot of the doctrine and knowledge that has been taught is fading away; it is because the Church has been taught “the knowledge of imperfection and incompleteness”. But it is fading and becoming obsolete. How many people are floundering waiting for the next and great last revival. The last, great, end-time revival was 2000 years ago at Calvary, and that was enough. Truth is superseding knowledge, and truth is ‘The Christ – the sons of the Living God’. We must let go of all our pet doctrines that divide us into a dualistic mentality. We must let go on how we think things should be done, and rest in the flow of the river that comes from under the throne which is IN His body. No more knowledge of imperfection, but truth in all its wholeness and perfection.

It may seem weird and scary, but if we will allow ourselves to start to perceive our brother through the eyes of our Father, all our separating walls begin tumbling down like a kingdom made of sand and the sun begins shining so much brighter.

There is a joy we have found in ‘losing doctrines’ because we have realized we were holding tightly to some things that only separated us from others and kept us from loving.
I had a vision of the bride of Christ holding a tattered hessian garment to herself. The knowledge she had clothed herself in was fading away and crumbling in her hands, but underneath – She was clothed in gold – but she couldn’t see it.

Perhaps its time for us all to comprehend who we really are. We are Christ. When we dare to stare face to face into the mirror of this mystery, we discover who we really are, and the most wonderful part is we also discover who EVERYONE is. We are different facets of the same diamond. There is truth to be gleaned from everyone. Our essence is Christ, the only difference between us being some have not unraveled the mystery of their identity yet. Religion tells us we must ascend, we must accept Jesus – well, Jesus accepted the entire human race 2000 years ago and placed us in himself. That’s why He will never leave of forsake us – because we are all in Him. Jesus is the only way. He is the way the Father got to all of us. True Christianity is not a religion, because we are not trying to appease an angry deity by our good works or morality. We are ONE with that deity we are born of Him, our life is His seed, and He is happy.We can rest, we are pleasing sons, because of the One who IS truth, and holiness and righteousness and perfection; the One who is mirrored in each of us – Jesus Christ the righteous.
(1 Corinthians 13:8b) As for knowledge, it will pass away [it will lose its value and be superseded by truth].

Allow Him to persuade and convince you.
JEFF and KATE.
Cliffon 15 Nov 2008 at 11:54 pm link comment

Jack, You also encourage people to purchase the following book (more merchandising even on your own site). The Harlot Church System : Come Out of Her My People
Description: Published by: Ingathering Press, Monterey, Tennessee,
Keywords: RELIGION
ISBN: 0964776634
Item No: 16007
Price: $22.50 —I also understand this author has other books that are for sale. What makes him right and Mike Williams wrong?

Again Jack, I agree with you on much of what you say about the rip off’s through out the religious world, but that doesn’t mean that anyone who receives money for services rendered is wrong. The small salarly I received did not begin to cover the cost of the thousands of books I purchased and studied. It hardly covered the cost of fuel and meals for the many visits I made though out the years.
Cliffon 15 Nov 2008 at 11:59 pm link comment

Jeff & Kate,

You have made some great points. I especially enjoyed the following statement:

Who’s beliefs is God going to be most happy with? Theirs or ours? It is the ‘them and us’ mentality that I believe needs to be swallowed up of ‘oneness’. Our doctrines have become denominations. Our knowledge and beliefs have become weapons. The one thing that has blurred the truth is our beliefs. Walls of belief have stopped people from freely entering the truth of their true identity.”
Jack Hennesseyon 16 Nov 2008 at 12:56 am link comment

Jack, You also encourage people to purchase the following book (more merchandising even on your own site). The Harlot Church System : Come Out of Her My People
Description: Published by: Ingathering Press, Monterey, Tennessee,
Keywords: RELIGION
ISBN: 0964776634
Item No: 16007
Price: $22.50 —I also understand this author has other books that are for sale. What makes him right and Mike Williams wrong?

Again Jack, I agree with you on much of what you say about the rip off’s through out the religious world, but that doesn’t mean that anyone who receives money for services rendered is wrong. The small salarly I received did not begin to cover the cost of the thousands of books I purchased and studied. It hardly covered the cost of fuel and meals for the many visits I made though out the years.

_____________________

Cliff read Kriston’s message again. The book you mention above can be read for free online as all this author’s books can. Big difference in the fees Williams charges and the CD”s he sells. Where are the free audios from the big $99.00 a person shindig in Houston. Your deceit is showing Cliff as you pick to justify. I can show you worse than that which you think you found. Gary at Tentmaker which is probably the foremost UR site spent a fortune of his own before he opened up a book store. I share with him when he first opened it there was a better way. He will learn as many others before him. I was led by the spirit to still share his site on my blog. That may change one day. I have taken one or two off my site that began to blatantly merchandise as this Williams fellow has. There is bad and good and then there is the best which Christ entreats us to walk in. You will know it by the Spirit.

And as far a salary ………… think about how that so violates the ways of God where faith and obedience are key to His blessings. I ministered for ten years pal, and never received a dime nor asked an offering. I am not a “I’ll better you” type guy but your defense is so lacking I mention that. Some of us walk it, not just talk it. Now go pray about how a salary might have both cheated you and your congregation. I’ll tell ya if you know how to pray and should you possibly still know the sound of God’s voice you will hear.

And Cliff, should you hear God’s word please go warn this Williams fella to give up “Achan’s wedge of gold and fine Babylonia garment” because as Kriston said earlier concerning the merchandizing of Christ, ” You may not like to hear this, but it IS going to change. I will even say, “Thus saith the Lord, This WILL change!”

Some of us have learned to walk in faith and obedience. As this economy turns up side down, those that scorn God’s laws will gnash their teeth and wail as they learn the same lessons of faith and obedience. Some will even learn on the other side of the grave, but all will learn. Such is the purifying Lake of Fire which God be. Each in his or her appointed order gets the carnal arm of flesh burned away. Can’t trust those chariots ……. can’t trust them horses.

He kills in order to make alive and I am so grateful for it.
Cliff, one day you will be also. That is something we both can bank on!

Do not be afraid to die my friend; you will rise again.

Jack
Julion 16 Nov 2008 at 1:00 am link comment

Hi Jeff and Kate
Thank you very much for sharing this article.
The part that jumped out at me was “The high priest never inspected each individual person before declaring Israel ‘clean’ for another year, he inspected the sacrifice. In the same way Father does not judge you by your own righteousness, or holiness, or perfection, but he inspected the sacrifice, and saw it was absolutely perfect.”
If it is possible down the track can you please share any feedback you receive from the network of pastors?
Just interested, were you guys ever pastors? How did it come about that you were invited to write the article?
Julia
Juliaon 16 Nov 2008 at 1:01 am link comment

PS My name was meant to read “Julia”. I’m not using a fake name again!
Cliffon 16 Nov 2008 at 2:39 am link comment

Jack said: Gary at Tentmaker which is probably the foremost UR site spent a fortune of his own before he opened up a book store. I share with him when he first opened it there was a better way. He will learn as many others before him. I was led by the spirit to still share his site on my blog. That may change one day.

You even admit that you are taking part in merchandising and yet you judge others for what you take part in. Seems to me like the pot calling the kettle black. Your own consistancy is starting to waver. How’s it feel to be just a human being? The good news for you Jack is that in God’s eyes you are still PERFECT.
Jeff & Kateon 16 Nov 2008 at 3:52 am link comment

Hi Julia,
Glad you enjoyed the article. YES!! Isn’t that wonderful?? Even the priest did not inspect each individual person to see if they were holy or perfect enough, he only inspected the sacrifice. God inspected His Son and found Him to be absolutely perfect, and now HIS perfection has been freely imputed to all human beings.
Yes, we were/are pastors – in a different way though now than we have been in the past. The structure of the church kind of crumbles and passes away once people embrace life in Christ. We’ve found freedom can’t be contained within the church structure, and once people embrace the grace and oneness of the work of the cross – ‘our ministry’ becomes ‘the ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ’. People who preach finished work and perfection and oneness do themselves out of a position. It’s a great leveller though, because no people are ‘higher’ than others.
We came to write the article, because a friend of ours Dr Kluane Spake asked for people’s opinions on what they think is going on with the church at the moment. The article has been well received among her group. Dr Kluane has a support system for people in 5-fold positions – called Jubilee Alliance, and we have been involved in it for a few years now. She has written some great books about mindsets, and what we choose to focus on.
Love and Peace.
Jack Hennesseyon 16 Nov 2008 at 5:59 am link comment

Jack said: Gary at Tentmaker which is probably the foremost UR site spent a fortune of his own before he opened up a book store. I share with him when he first opened it there was a better way. He will learn as many others before him. I was led by the spirit to still share his site on my blog. That may change one day.

You even admit that you are taking part in merchandising and yet you judge others for what you take part in. Seems to me like the pot calling the kettle black. Your own consistancy is starting to waver. How’s it feel to be just a human being? The good news for you Jack is that in God’s eyes you are still PERFECT.

____________________

No I don’t merchandise and your attempt to paint such an idea once again proves that your “it is finished/no law” doctrine is foul to the core. You know you are dishonest and so do I.

There is only One perfect my friend and as long as you walk in your meat suit you ain’t Him. So get over your grandiose view of yourself and while you are at it wipe the purple mustache off you face. The Kool-aid you guys are drinking ain’t ever going to make you God. You have foolishly taken upon yourselves a doctrine that promotes self-centredness, selfishness, self-justification and self-glorification and it won’t fly, never will.

Pal, I looked at this “I’m perfect” doctrine before you even knew it was out there. I looked at it for a long time and I found it was like trying to pick up a turd by the clean end.

You picked it up and now you’re a mess, buddy ……. far from perfect ……… just a stinking dishonest mess.

Isaiah 9:15 tells us that the prophet who teach lies is the tail. Therefore, the lying prophets, teachers and preachers are drawing unsuspecting Christians from the heavens in Christ. This New Age/New Tolerance religion devours them. IF you want to see the devil, take a good look at Cliff, George, Williams and so many here and you will see him swishing his tail of lying prophets throughout the heavens and entangling men’s minds with carnal self preserving precepts.

No Cliff you and your buddies are not perfect ……. maybe “perfect messes with a little perfect purple mustaches.”
Sounds like a bunch of silly clowns to me, but hey have it. Religion has always been a weird gig.

Jack
Geoon 16 Nov 2008 at 6:55 am link comment

Jeff & Kate
Thanks for sharing your article!

I would add that the arguments in Christianity about doctrines and beliefs come because of the question that is being asked by everyone is the wrong question!!! The question everyone seems to debate is our view and opinion about God. When the real question should be, “What is God’s view and opinion of the human race after the Cross”? Mankind’s view & opinion about what we believe about God does NOT matter!
What matters is God’s view and opinion of man! And what is that view?
We have been hidden in Christ and as Christ is perfect we also are perfect! Now that is GOOD NEWS.

Thanks Again
Peace

Geo
Jeff & Kateon 16 Nov 2008 at 7:45 am link comment

Well said George.
Sueon 16 Nov 2008 at 8:03 am link comment

Everyone participating must be right as all the opinions have been “FREE”!

Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliffon 16 Nov 2008 at 11:25 am link comment

Thanks again Jack as you gave my wife and I a great laugh this morning as we read your sweet comment. Your sooooo funny.

Good point Sue.

Amen Geo.
Jack Hennesseyon 16 Nov 2008 at 2:47 pm link comment

Cliffon 16 Nov 2008 at 11:25 am link comment
Thanks again Jack as you gave my wife and I a great laugh this morning as we read your sweet comment. Your sooooo funny.
_____________

God bless the poor woman.
Jack Hennesseyon 16 Nov 2008 at 11:35 pm link comment

I would add that the arguments in Christianity about doctrines and beliefs come because of the question that is being asked by everyone is the wrong question!!! The question everyone seems to debate is our view and opinion about God. When the real question should be, “What is God’s view and opinion of the human race after the Cross”? Mankind’s view & opinion about what we believe about God does NOT matter!
What matters is God’s view and opinion of man! And what is that view?
We have been hidden in Christ and as Christ is perfect we also are perfect! Now that is GOOD NEWS.

Thanks Again
Peace

Geo

___________________

This is where your “house of cards theology” you have built falls to the sand right away. God’s view of the human race didn’t change 2000 years ago. Christ was slain from the foundations. Before there was man, before there was sin God knew man to be in His perfect image. God saw our end and our beginnings before we even came to be.

An oh, my to think it doesn’t matter what mans “view” is. How absolutely absurd! God thinks it important in making man into His image thus He veils himself and unveils Himself to man , as His plan and purpose is played out in mankind and creation. Now get this please! Man is changed as his “view” of Christ is enlarged and made clear. Our perfection is all about our view!

It is the “knowledge/view” of Christ that saves a man! Salvation is all about seeing and knowing Christ Jesus and having Him abide and walk in you. This will take place in every man, each in his own order and yes the great mystery is that hades holds no bars as this process goes on beyond the grave.

One must pervert and throw so much out of the Bible to make your philosophy work. This is why when I have posed so many scriptures concerning our progressive salvation and God’s continual perfecting work I get no argument. It the “suffering to learn obedience and become mature” scriptures that scared you guys off and into perversion but remember there ain’t no pantie waists in the Throne Room. Everyone shares the Cross.

Yeah Geo, man’s view don’t make a hill a beans. Only when man wants to “pretend he is perfect” can that be said. Hopefully Jesus will unveil Himself to you and Cliff and you will fall upon your knees in repentance upon viewing Him.

2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

Jam 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:

Jack
Jeff & Kateon 17 Nov 2008 at 12:17 am link comment

Jack your views are very new age mixed with humanism, which is at the end of all things is the happiness of man. Which involves works and levels of personel accomplishments. True Grace gives God all the Glory. I finish with this question I have asked you before: was Jesus succesful : Yes or No? Love you Bro.
Jeff and Kate.
Jeff & Kateon 17 Nov 2008 at 12:35 am link comment

Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you. (Phil 3:15)

For now we are looking in a mirror that gives only a dim (blurred) reflection [of reality as in a riddle or enigma], but then
we shall see in reality and face to face! Now I know in part (imperfectly), but then I shall know and understand fully and clearly, even in the same manner as I have been fully and clearly known and understood [by God]. (1Cor 13:12)

Jack, the Father knows and will reveal it to you if you are ‘otherwise minded’, that is: with a mind that thinks anything less than perfection. He fully knows the real you – Christ.
Jack Hennesseyon 17 Nov 2008 at 1:03 am link comment

LOL Jeff you use scriptures that actually point to our need for our view of Christ to be enlarged and clarified as His work of salvation progresses in us. Yes, as you quoted, “God shall reveal even this unto you.”

He continues to reveal Himself to us and to dispute this, is to know all things God and I just don’t quite see your “omniscience” in play yet, Jeff. LOL

You make my point, “o perfect one [sic]“
Jeff & Kateon 17 Nov 2008 at 1:45 am link comment

Jack.
I finish with this question I have asked you before: was Jesus succesful : Yes or No? Love you Bro.
Jeff and Kate.
Jack Hennesseyon 17 Nov 2008 at 1:53 am link comment

Jack your views are very new age mixed with humanism, which is at the end of all things is the happiness of man.
________________

See that is the deceit I am always confronted with in dealing with your foul spirits here.There is not the least indication that I have ever come close to saying the “happiness of man” has one iota of relevance. Pretty deceitful but whats new, Jeff.
_________________

Which involves works and levels of personal accomplishments.
___________________

Once again you show deceit in projecting that, as any position I would hold. We die to self, that Christ might walk and have His being in us. We die daily and that is the part that you guys flee from. It involves suffering the loss of our works, our ways and our accomplishments. Once again pretty deceitful and once again what’s new, Jeff.
___________________________

True Grace gives God all the Glory. I finish with this question I have asked you before: was Jesus successful : Yes or No? Love you Bro.
Jeff and Kate.
_________________________

That question has been answered and I will quote that which I said earlier in a post here and I will even enlarge on it. I give you two of my quotes:

“Grace includes the power to change”

“Jesus declared: “It is finished.”
He had become a sinless man in the earth. A perfect sacrifice for sin, A last man Adam that had the power to give His life and take it up again.”

I enlarge:

By the power of the Spirit of His sinless life laid down and His resurrection Christ today finishes His work in us in bringing (notice the tense “bringing”) many sons to glory. As long as the ages roll on and there is the realm of time and space this work will continue. That is the practical where you and I dwell at the moment. The positional view is God’s and until we are Deified and no longer die as men we will suffer the practical. And I’ll let you in on something we will even suffer until, the last man is made into the spittin image of our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus.

“Hbr 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom [are] all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through “sufferings.”

Notice the “sufferings” which Jeff and the “it is finished” crowd belittles as used of God and thus build an illusory theology which exempts such.

Now here is a last quote posted here twice and once on another forum that no one seemed to have an answer for. Now will you “perfect ones” with the “escapist theology” please deal with these scriptures and this quote:

from Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a “big boy.” I added to the few scriptures I quoted earlier to show others the long row you are going to have to hoe to get around God’s use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

” …. we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously…

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;…Phil. 3:10

Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Rom. 5:2-3 – Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 – Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 – the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well.

Phil. 1:29 – for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God’s plan.

Col. 1:24 – Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body.

2 Tim. 1:8 – Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 – Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.

Heb. 12:5-7 – do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

1 Peter 2:19-21 – Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Now will someone with integrity please step forward.

Jack
Jack Hennesseyon 17 Nov 2008 at 2:01 am link comment

I didn’t see your earlier post thus my last response. And that will be the last response you will get from me pal. Deceit will have no audience with me. Is there an honest participant here? No there can’t be because once you buy into this New Age junk every demon and his cousin enjoins themselves to you. I first witnessed this thirty years ago and I have not seen even one soul able to escape the tight hold of this occultic philosophy. Not one, thus I warn others.

Jack
Jeff & Kateon 17 Nov 2008 at 3:32 am link comment

Jack does that mean Yes or No?
Jack Hennesseyon 17 Nov 2008 at 4:46 am link comment

Oh my, Jesus is a big success, pal.

He was a success, is a success and will be a success until His reign is complete and He takes His place ever as the Father. What so few understand is that Christ Jesus is the Father in the bounds of time and space. When time has given it’s last moment there is but One.

How strange it should be,
That we who seemed four,
Are now become Three.
And We Who are Three
Are yet become One,
Father, Spirit and Sons in the Son.

Now take a hike, my work is done here for awhile. The poisoned Kool-aid, Williams’ gold theft and the deceit of the “lawless perfect ones” have been exposed once again.

When I feel Loves call I’ll be back,

Jack
Jeff & Kateon 17 Nov 2008 at 6:04 am link comment

Jack you talk about reigning one day in the sweet bye and bye, of coming into something that is futuristic. Paul said to “reign in Life now”, that is grace which is sufficient.
Love you Bro.
Jeff and Kate.
geoon 17 Nov 2008 at 6:49 am link comment

Jack Wrote:
And that will be the last response you will get from me pal.

THEN Jack Wrote AGAIN!
What does that make Jack?

Peace
Geo
geoon 17 Nov 2008 at 6:53 am link comment

Then Jack wrote:
Is there an honest participant here?

Yes there is Jack but not as long as you are here!
You have lied more than twice about your responses being the last response here. I told you before that you will never leave here because the message of Grace is to great for you to resist. You will NEVER leave here! You can’t! And one day you will come to the end of your self-righteous belief and fall into the belief of Christ. And as I told you before, on that day we at Bold Grace will say “welcome home”

Peace
Geo
Sueon 17 Nov 2008 at 1:33 pm link comment

Jack, Could you ask God for an early retirement? I don’t know how he got along without you when he created man in his image. I’m sure you could have given him advice about how to do it better.(wink) Because he first loved us – Sue
Jack Hennesseyon 17 Nov 2008 at 6:25 pm link comment

LOL good one
geoon 17 Nov 2008 at 6:48 pm link comment

Jack Wrote:
And that will be the last response you will get from me pal.

Then he writes again!
What does that make Jack?

Peace
Geo
Cliffon 17 Nov 2008 at 7:32 pm link comment

Don’t go Jack…..we really do love you—no strings attached.
Sueon 17 Nov 2008 at 8:00 pm link comment

Jack, Ditto on what Cliff just said!
Jack Hennesseyon 18 Nov 2008 at 4:02 am link comment

Jeepers! With your welcome, you guys are really making me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

Sorry, but I just have to take off for a few days. When and if I come back I’ll try and remember to bring a whip and a chair for the lawless spirits here. I should also forewarn you that you have only glimpsed my gentle side. I’m like a lynx. I’ll attack when you least expect it and I’m silent like the wind. I also possess the skills of a ninja and the ferocity of a fat woman in front of an all you can eat buffet.

Later guys,

Jack
Sueon 18 Nov 2008 at 8:19 am link comment

Jack, Isaiah 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together –

Read you later – Because he first loved us – Sue
Jack Hennesseyon 19 Nov 2008 at 4:44 am link comment

“Read you later”

Why wait. Here is one I wrote tonight with tears. You can compare writings and the the thoughts expressed on the this blog and SONSHINE.

The “fulfilled view” with it’s accompanying writers and writings displays a false and soulish peace. I for one have never realized or experienced the anointing when reading from the “it is finished crowd.” The writings always comes across as shallow, dead ended and frivolous.

God’s sons carry a peace along side a sympathetic groaning with creation (Rom 8). I believe the temporal peace of the lawless New Age group is born of a seared over conscience. Thus I warn others.

Did you know the “law” (which it seems everyone here eschews) is written on our hearts. It is actually the conscience in every man. Only Christ fulfils the law and relieves man’s conscience. It is also a progressive working of the Holy Spirit unto our full salvation. The rebellious hate the law but at the appointed time they will suffer the full effects of the law and then it’s glorious fulfilment. Each in his own order.

THE ECONOMICS OF A SON ……… “The Groanings of Suffering Prayer”

Link removed at commenter’s request

Be blessed,

Jack
Jack Hennesseyon 19 Nov 2008 at 4:58 am link comment

One last word for ol’ rebellious George.

The law reflects the very nature of God and when George’s buddy Mike Williams peddles his Chinese t-shirts showing the “tablets with the circle and slash superimposed over them” ……….. well can you say “BLASPHEMING”
geoon 19 Nov 2008 at 6:29 am link comment

Jack Wrote:
well can you say “BLASPHEMING”

Sure can Jack I say it every time I read your writings.
You deny daily the power of Christ and His sacrifice in all of your comments and writings. You my brother are very self-righteous and full of belief in your belief. But as I have said before one day you will come to the faith “of” Christ and on that day we will welcome you home.

Peace
Geo
geoon 19 Nov 2008 at 6:43 am link comment

Jack Wrote:
The rebellious hate the law but at the appointed time they will suffer the full effects of the law and then it’s glorious fulfilment. Each in his own order.

AMEN Jack!
When you come to the end of your self righteous beliefs then the law would have had it’s full affect on you and you will see, “IT IS FINISHED”
Also the each in his order that you quote out of context had to do with Adam and Christ not you and me or you and anybody else. Seeing yourself in that bible passage shows that you have not had the law take it full effect on you yet. But you will.

Until Homecoming

Peace
Geo
Sueon 19 Nov 2008 at 8:02 am link comment

Jack, I said read you later because you said you were going to take off for a few days! When I do read your words most of the time I think of the “Wizard” of Oz. Lots of loud wind and scare tactics but behind the curtain just a small insecure person.

You should write childrens books as they are still vulnerable to scare tactics. We are adults who grew up being fed the food you dish out and we no longer eat that kind of food.

It is ok for you to be just where you are in your journey but you sure make it hard on yourself.

Post 11/17 103am – Jack wrote “He continues to reveal Himself to us and to dispute this, is to know all things God and I just don’t quite see your “omniscience” in play yet, Jeff.LOL”

“God and I” – Who is claiming equality with God here? YOU!!

Because he first loved us – Sue
Jack Hennesseyon 20 Nov 2008 at 1:09 pm link comment

Sue, sneaky, sneaky and I didn’t have to wonder why the Holy Spirit wouldn’t allow me to offer a word when you were not long ago bemoaning your depression and querying the false and temporal peace these apostates here hold. Sue, deceit will give you a false and temporal “feel good” but the following crash is quite painful.

Allow me to render that sentence more clearly in two ways, once with a comma and other with the phrases separated to make two sentences.

“He continues to reveal Himself to us and to dispute this, is to know all things God, and I just don’t quite see your “omniscience” in play yet,”

“He continues to reveal Himself to us and to dispute this, is to know all things God. I just don’t quite see your “omniscience” in play yet,”

No Sue, you won’t see me saying I am God. And yes, with some of us there is still a perfecting of the soul taking place. It involves some suffering that sends the New Agers to flight.

Remember deceit and depression go hand in hand ……… thus the perfecting of the soul. We all go through it and my old departed friend George Hawtin had a word that speaks to the times of remedy.

“God saves some first and teaches them after, but others, He teaches first and saves them after. But every day God reaps an enormous harvest from mankind.”

Jack
Sueon 20 Nov 2008 at 3:30 pm link comment

Jack,

Don’t blame the Holy Spirit for your lack of compassion, that is really low.

You can think what you want and I will defend your right to do that. But I

do not take you too seriously as you have proven you just like to fight.

Disagreement is ok but you LIKE to fight, there is a difference.

Let’s see, you are all knowing where God is concerned and now you are a

doctor! Deceit and depression go hand in hand you say? You just show

your ignorance, Jack. You seem to think that all on this website think we

cannot grow or learn – that is your lie – I don’t know who teaches that.

Jack, Why didn’t the Holy Spirit make sure you put your comma in the right

place in the first place? Maybe the Holy Spirit is trying to tell you

something.

I wonder what I would hear you teach if you added a little humility and

maybe a dash of love?

As for the placement of the comma, I think I shall always see it the way

YOU first wrote it. Maybe deceit and mistakes go hand in hand?

Jack, it is my birthday today. I am 61 years young. How old are you? Old

enough to know better than to pretend you know everything? (wink) –

Because he first loved us – Sue
geoon 20 Nov 2008 at 3:57 pm link comment

HAPPY BIRTHDAY Sue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
May you have 61 more!

Peace
Geo
Cliffon 20 Nov 2008 at 5:16 pm link comment

Well said Sue. I truly hope Jack is listening and has a willing heart to learn something new. I believe this aswesome Love Of God is bold enough to reach the most hardened of the human race and eventually will reach them. Jack is like any other drug addict except his choice of drug is self righteousness. I just wish he could see his perfect creation that was accomplished by God and not mankind.

Jack…..you are perfect whether you believe it or not. Your perfection is the same as mine so neither one of us can brag. I don’t feel superior to you……can you say the same? Come home Jack to a LOVE that unites us all as one even when we don’t know it.
Jeff & Kateon 20 Nov 2008 at 5:23 pm link comment

Happy Birthday Sue!
You’re a blessing
Love Jeff&Kate
Sueon 20 Nov 2008 at 5:23 pm link comment

Thanks Geo, I will take what God gives me!
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sueon 20 Nov 2008 at 5:30 pm link comment

Jeff and Kate,

Thank you and you have been a blessing as well. Because he first loved us – Love to All – Sue
Jack Hennesseyon 20 Nov 2008 at 10:42 pm link comment

From one that knows the real depths of depression I can say those that advance in the Kingdom will indeed suffer such. Yes if you walk in sinful flesh while following the spirit you will suffer depression and maybe even often for awhile. The soul/carnal mind wants it own way and lusts after the things of flesh and the things of the world. God by the indwelling spirit judges the soul which is the seat of the flesh and also is blind to it’s own condition The lusting soul always wanting immediate gratification rebels as judgement at the moment is not pleasant.

The doctor says here take a pill, you have a chemical imbalance. It doesn’t take much to look at the state of mental heath in the western world to see that this regiment just doesn’t work all that well even for the world. I’m talking in general terms as you won’t catch me ruling out all uses of drugs ( I know how touchy this subject is plus I was married to a Psychologist). I for one believe God has a better plan for most believers as did my wife and yes it has to do with the idea that we suffer to learn as did even and most importantly Jesus.

Don’t think for a minute our precious Saviour who came in the likeness of sinful flesh wasn’t suffering the greatest of depression in the Garden of Gethsemane. I believe He actually suffered our depressions but that is another story. There are also many other accounts of depression in the Bible.

I must believe that for many cases of depression there is a healing that doesn’t deaden and fogs one’s soul/mind as do so many of the horrendous psychotherapeutic medicines. It is not the way of the world and it must come at God’s healing hand. I don’t condemn those friends of mine that have chosen the route of anti-depressants but I also know they are pretty oblivious to the things of the spirit.

So as far as my response to Sue, you can take a hike because I am the one that honestly replied while your responses were band-aids and temporal solutions that mask the problem of the deceitful soul that doesn’t want to die to itself. “Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.” (Prov 27:5-6)

You guys have never addressed the many scriptures I have laid out here dealing with the suffering of the saint as the way of God’s maturation process. Not one response on the purpose of suffering ……. not one! Nah, just a bunch of dang sissies that pipe a false tune to those that might be suffering at God’s hand for good reason. This “lawless it is finished doctrine” has no room for Truth much less the realities of why we suffer in this world. It is filled with a bunch of illusory precepts piled one on top the other to the point where one must eventually throw out the Bible as inspired because this New Age doctrine won’t fit with the whole of the written word.

Think and pray if possible on these scriptures when you measure the cause of depressions and healings of the soul/mind.

“The human mind is the most deceitful of all things. It is incurable. No one can understand how deceitful it is. Jer 17:19

For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please. Gal 5:17

For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2Cr 10:4,5

Jack

Yesterday I actually shared a testimony of a time of deep depression in my life in the third comment of this blog. I am not one that isn’t touched by another’s infirmity. I am however one that will look another in the eye and say I see “deceit and depression” going very much together. Why ………. because the Bible and Spirit tell me so.

Link removed at commenter’s request
Cliffon 20 Nov 2008 at 11:47 pm link comment

Jack,

You search the scriptures daily thinking that in them you shall find life, but these same scriptures are pointing to Christ. They are not pointing to us. It is Christ that gives life and He didn’t give it based on our performance, but rather on His. God’s love is the same way. He doesn’t give it based on our performance but rather on who HE is. You are looking at the scriptures with the mind of the first Adam. A mind that is corrupted with fear. Come out of the bushes my friend and walk hand in hand with the God of Perfect Love. Don’t be afraid. This is why you keep coming back here because in the depth of your heart you know you desperately need to accept the reality of your perfection in Jesus.

Peace my friend,

Cliff
Jeff & Kateon 21 Nov 2008 at 12:15 am link comment

I agree Cliff, I lived in that mindset for many years, and I concluded that all were under sin, and that any suffering was for God. The manchild doctrine and the so called sons of God movement, puts people into elitism
and a dual mindset. Which is law, the death to self movement in reality bought self to the front. I was where Jack is, it is us and them mentality. It is an angry place he is in, It shortsheets the work of the Cross. We died in Christ once, no need to die any more. As in Adam all die, and in Christ all are made alive!
2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.
2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

I finally came to a place that henceforth I know longer know Jeff after the flesh, and any other person I see in Christ.
Jack will tickle our ears with Law but whats done is done “IT is Finished”
Love Jeff and Kate.
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 12:37 am link comment

I looked to see if I had any old files on depression and found this remarkable testimony. If I remember correctly I copied it from a message on a UR forum where the oft hot topic of depression was being discussed.
________________

.i was diagnosed bi polar some 17 years ago. for many years i was on drugs to soothe this ‘beast’ lets say inside of me. but the drugs never did the job they didnt HEAL.

Since my REAL acceptance of Jesus as my King, and the loving care of a fellow UR believer, who willingly took on my tortured soul without abandoning me in the worst moments, Jesus has healed me and I no longer need meds. I have not been on meds for psyche depression for over nine months, i see clinical counselors, i have a file as thick as a dictionary, and my doctors are amazed.

My Psychiatrist is Jewish. My counselor is Christian. But, neither of their methods were able to ‘restore’ me, and they tried many. It was a friend, who brought me to the truth of UR and worked with me in study that has done the work.

In my opinion, the difference is in the treatment as to what a depression really is.

If it is soothed with drugs, and with coddling and enabling, its not glory to God in any way at all.

But, if it is the restoring of that soul by the love of Christ, in the Word, in daily action, in submission, and suffering, it becomes totally of God.

I would call it human to suffer depression, the world is a tough place to survive.

Legion was all that in depression, a vile cruel creature. The LOVE of Jesus, restored the man, who wanted to follow him, but Jesus sent him home, where was likely , as i understand it the greater witness for the glory of God. For it is likely that what created that creature was its environment.

You hear a lot of people tell you that the ‘battle is in the mind’. To a degree this is real. Its in the mind, and the heart, both submitting to Jesus.

Depression comes of no discipline, no love that guides and keeps us. Untreated the depressed person is like the old sheep in the flock, and the shepherd has to break their legs to get them to submit, re-learn, and then stay in the flock.

I’ve been in support groups, and through years of therapy, but what heals is the love of Christ.

Jesus Christ can heal anything….clinical/mental illness….is nothing to the power of that love…that love that restores.

I’ve been doing some reading on split brain surgery, and the brains communications to itself and the body when damaged, when whole, and when separated in surgery to two separate hemispheres. All that science attempts to explain, cannot be concluded. For every single explanation they find, there is always and exception to the rule, a ‘miracle’ of will and communication of the brain to understand. I see a micro of the universe in our brains. Left or Right, analytical or holistic, logical or creative, Jesus in both places, not shut out by the world, will overcome.

The depressed person…..regardless of their diagnosis….suffers the worst of all things…they do not love themselves…and therefore do not know how to love others.

Praise God for the restoration of Love in all human life. Amen.
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 12:58 am link comment

Still the immature and cowardly have no response to the suffering scriptures I have laid out over and over. We don’t choose to suffer but yes, He chooses what suffering we will endure as our deceitful soul is cleansed.

Once again, posted for the third time the scriptures addressing the suffering of the saints. Many deal with the perfecting and healing of the soul. Is there a man or woman amongst this deluded crowd that cares to address this?

from Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a mature son. You are going to have to hoe a long path to get around God’s use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

” …. we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously…

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;…Phil. 3:10

Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Rom. 5:2-3 – Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 – Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 – the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well.

Phil. 1:29 – for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God’s plan.

Col. 1:24 – Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body.

2 Tim. 1:8 – Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 – Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.

Heb. 12:5-7 – do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

1 Peter 2:19-21 – Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Will someone step up to the plate and address these scriptures?

Jack
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 3:39 am link comment

Tell us Jack…..just how have you suffered? Come on now, that should not be hard to answer. And why do you think that none of us have suffered? Are you that self centered that you think you are the only one marching to the beat of the drum? Come on Jack, just accept the Perfect Love of God that came to you WITHOUT your help? According to you your suffering is a badge of honor (or bragging rights). Try humbling yourself just a little Jack.

And by the way, our readers should know that you are not quoting scripture above word for word, but rather what you printed is a mixture of partial scripture and your words mixed in…..and you call us dishonest.

Your still perfect in HIS eyes Jack. I knew you would keep coming back. Your getting closer to home all the time.

Peace,

Cliff
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 4:48 am link comment

Just can’t answer those scriptures can you or the simple questions.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

The “it is finished/I’m perfect” group can never answer these two questions nor explain away the multitude of NT scriptures that demonstrate God’s use of suffering in the making of sons.

Is there a man or woman to step out from amongst the deceitful that might answer the two questions?
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 7:43 am link comment

Jack,

You can read the following and clearly see that I both now and have always believed in God’s perfect love that not only allows suffering but also takes our suffering (caused by our tarnished view of God) and turns it around.

http://boldgrace.com/2007/09/14/are-we-accountable/

Also, you did not answer my question: “What is your suffering?” You also did not even try to refute what I questioned about your dishonest use of scripture.

Please Jack…..come out of the bush of fear and condemnation. Come Home…..you know you want to, that’s why you keep coming back to BOLDGRACE.
Bruceon 21 Nov 2008 at 8:28 am link comment

When someone comes to understand, and embrace, of the gospel of grace and peace, the advice I always give them is that there is “bad news” and “good news”. The bad news is… there will be persecution and suffering (mostly at the hands of those who call themselves “christians”). The good news is… you won’t care.
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 8:34 am link comment

Well Said Bruce.
Sueon 21 Nov 2008 at 8:43 am link comment

Dear Jack,
“Is suffering a tool God uses in our salvation?” “Does God use suffering in
the perfecting of the saints?”

Look at the world around us all. The cycle of Birth-Life lived-Death is everywhere. There is suffering everywhere. People are at different levels of that life cycle. Nature is Gods creation. All creation is a tool God hascreated for us to learn. God does not single out one thing to beat us over the head. Everything God wants us to have he has set in motion. For every grain of sand there is an illness of some sort. Depression is just one but it does have many causes. Suffering has many faces and caused by an endless list of how hard it is for man to to love each other. And suffering is caused by nature. God created nature. God also created a way for us to have some peace. He created GRACE. We will suffer trying to understand. We are mankind and limited. We are loved, but because of the cycle of life and death we sometimes miss Gods message that he already took care of things. He wants us to have as much peace as we can here, even though we ALL must suffer this human life.

Jack, you are already the image of God but you make yourself suffer thinking
YOU have to help. After we understand this we still must suffer what nature
does ( life cycle) and what man does (destroy self and each other). We
must die. Because God loves ALL people the same they are all “saints”.
Jack, God does not need martars. He does not need our help. What Jesus
Christ did on the cross is sufficient for all. You and I and ALL are in the best
hands possible – God and Jesus Christ – Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 9:00 am link comment

And also “well said SUE”.
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 11:45 am link comment

So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

Once again, posted for the fourth time the scriptures addressing the suffering of the saints. Many deal with the perfecting and healing of the soul.

from Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a mature son. You are going to have to hoe a long path to get around God’s use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

” …. we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously…

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;…Phil. 3:10

Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Rom. 5:2-3 – Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 – Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 – the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well.

Phil. 1:29 – for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God’s plan.

Col. 1:24 – Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body.

2 Tim. 1:8 – Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 – Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.

Heb. 12:5-7 – do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

1 Peter 2:19-21 – Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Will someone step up to the plate, answer the two simple questions and address these scriptures if they answer no?

Jack
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 1:22 pm link comment

Jack, We have stepped up but you havn’t pitched anything worth swinging at. No one here is arguing against suffering that happens on this earth. As Sue said, we all suffer. Once again, tell us how your supposed Holy suffering is different?
Will you please step up to the plate and answer this very simple question. You just keep avoiding it. What’s the matter Jack, you starting to doubt yourself. Come on home friend, you know you want to let go of your fears.

Peace,

Cliff
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 2:23 pm link comment

Cliff if I remember right I came on about the time you posted, “My Last Post.” Was that a suicidal call for help? What was the deal with that? This is why I say you more than others are full of deceit. Why would I want that which you have, when it failed you. Where was the “peace” you pretend to have. It sure wasn’t in “My Last Post” which by the way seems to have been conveniently deleted. Got to keep the deceitful charade up but it ain’t flyin. Not by me anyway. This stuff you guys are sellin is as false and illusory as it gets and it is all shrouded in deceit.

Two questions once again:

So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 2:27 pm link comment

Jack, it is so obvious you have reached the point where you have nothing left but to attack. It’s OK friend, you are still loved and perfect in God’s eyes. As far as my peace, I never lost it. The peace God gives is not the peace of this world. It is peace that is past understanding. I hope someday you will come home and receive it.

Peace,

Cliff

PS. I did delete that post at the request of someone who loves me very deeply. I have nothing to hide or fear. Can you say the same thing?
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 2:42 pm link comment

Just quit the deceit and answer the two questions.

Two questions once again:

So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?
Jeff & Kateon 21 Nov 2008 at 3:00 pm link comment

Jack for many years I felt as if I stood before the veil in the Holy place at the altar of Incense, I would cry out to God “I want to Die” continually. I could feel the crushing of the incense in my life,the suffering as I was beaten so that I would become incense acceptable to My God. In the midst of frustration and suffering I would cry “Lord keep the fire going”. The mind battles, the demons, the effort of trying to manage sin and guilt was to much. I was more suicidal as a “Christian” than I was as a Addict. Jack I tried to die so hard, that I stopped any Life of Christ manifesting. Did God put this suffering on me ? NO and No again. I like Paul cried out, and the answer was “My Grace is sufficient for thee” Under the Law of Moses the Ten commandments I was condemned. But under Grace I am free from The Law of sin and death. I will not get entangled in the yoke of bondage any more. Am I persecuted,? Yes by the religious people, Do I suffer ? NO. ITs Life, I have not got a martyr complex. I find what I go through is not worthy to be compared to the Glory( GODS VIEW AND OPINION OF US) which is being revealed in us. The world is always saying find your strengths, but I have found my weaknesses and inabilities, I have come to the end of myself and in this HE IS STRONG. HIS GRACE IS SUFFICIENT FOR ME, HIS STRENGTH IS MADE PERFECT IN WEAKNESS! Christ is not a babe still in me, of His fullness have we all received, Grace for Grace.
Grace be multiplied to you Jack
Love Jeff and Kate.
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 3:01 pm link comment

Don’t get your pantys in a bunch Jack. Tell us about your suffering and then maybe we can understand your question better, unless you’re afraid.
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 3:59 pm link comment

“And they could not answer him again to these things.” Lk 14:6
_____________________________________________________

So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

Once again, posted for the fifth time in a number of weeks here, the scriptures addressing the suffering of the saints. Many deal with the perfecting and healing of the soul.

from Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a mature son. You are going to have to hoe a long path to get around God’s use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

” …. we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously…

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;…Phil. 3:10

Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Rom. 5:2-3 – Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 – Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 – the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well.

Phil. 1:29 – for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God’s plan.

Col. 1:24 – Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body.

2 Tim. 1:8 – Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 – Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.

Heb. 12:5-7 – do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

1 Peter 2:19-21 – Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

Those that haven’t bought into the fraudulent message promoted here see that you at BoldGrace have no answer when confronted with scriptural truth that speaks to the perfecting of the saints through suffering. Five times, clearly have I asked.

Jack
Cliffon 21 Nov 2008 at 4:09 pm link comment

Jack……give it up. No one is listening to you.
Sueon 21 Nov 2008 at 6:58 pm link comment

Jack, How much suffering is enough for you? How will you know when you have suffered enough? What kind of suffering are you speaking of? You sound so miserable. All the scripture you put in your post is taken out of context. You come across as a wannabe martyr. I cannot understand why you want everyone to be so unhappy. You don’t listen when someone answers you.
You don’t want to have a discussion. You want to jam your anger down our throats. Look in the mirror, Jack. In whose image are you made? God? God is Love. Tell me, what is your suffering? Because he first loved us – Sue
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 8:18 pm link comment

I don’t think I am the miserable one, Sue. I believe out of you, Cliff and myself I might actually be viewed as Mr Happy. I am sure tired of the deceit though. I came over here some days ago and Sue, you were depressed, looking for the peace these clown pretend to have. It sickened me to see these guys feed you the garbage that doesn’t hold up. Yet God told me, you weren’t looking for truth but only a way to placate your deceitful soul. I sadly couldn’t help you, and I remained silent. Then today after all the weeks of taunting by Cliff saying I was here because I wanted what he and the others had The Holy spirit reminded me that when I first came to BG, Cliff had just written his suicidal “My Last Post.” The man doesn’t have peace but is a real phony. And he got called on it today.

Your deceit has caught up with you here. It’s been exposed in so many areas. The writers here at BG deceitfully say they are “perfect and it is finished with them.” Well it doesn’t take much to expose this lie and having exposed it many times before on different forums it just so happened I was led to use the “suffering scriptures” to do so here. The “suffering verses” clearly shoot down the “I am perfect now, it is finished” heresy. Thus my two questions and the number of suffering scriptures have been a choice led of the Spirit as no one dares address them. Instead the charade of lawlessness, false love and pretentious peace circles the challenge all the while the proponents of the Bold Grace are shown to be quite the little heretical phonies. It’s pretty slick how the Lord works. And why does He do this? He does it to but warn others that are looking at this heresy you are attempting to sell. You don’t come out of this New Age New Tolerance poison once you have eaten into it ….. not in this world. Out of the hundreds I have dealt with I’ve not seen one break free …… not one. So great is the deceit!

So following that explanation allow me to share my two unanswered questions once again as they speak loudly to your deceit and inability to withstand the Truth in Christ. Rather than recite the scriptures again; for any viewer looking on they are posted three comments up.

So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

Jack
geoon 21 Nov 2008 at 8:34 pm link comment

*Jack Asked:

*So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

YES! But not ours or yours Jack. It was the suffering of Jesus

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

YES! But not ours or yours Jack. It was the suffering of Jesus

Peace
Geo
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 9:02 pm link comment

I appreciate you taking a shot George. I have to run to the store and then I will look at the list of scriptures I laid out earlier and show how your answer although appreciated is found lacking. Two verses come to mind right off the bat but I will save them and hopefully add a few more.

Thanks,

Jack
geoon 21 Nov 2008 at 9:10 pm link comment

The issue with all or your responses Jack is that you believe the things are “scripture” that Jesus NEVER said were “scripture” That’s okay with me but to say all of the passages you quote are “scripture” is to redefine in mans terms what the “scriptures” are! I agree with Jesus definition of what the “scriptures” are. Obviously you believe something other than what Jesus said they were.

Peace
Geo
Jack Hennesseyon 21 Nov 2008 at 11:37 pm link comment

Oh my George, now we get rid of the New Testament. I guess it is less than inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Your two answers could not hold up against the scriptures I quote so now you trash the New Testament.

“1Ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Well George you won’t mind if, from now on I address you as Hymie.

When I first started studying about this New Age “it is finished/ I’m perfect” heresy I read a warning that I have found to be true without exception when I visit these foul sites such as BoldGrace. This author who was quite experienced at the time with these apostate groups wrote, “that when you engage these people, it will be something akin to being challenged to a chess match. Only you will soon discover that when you pull out your chess board and start using the chess pieces, the New Ager pulls out checkers, and tries to convince you that he, too, is playing chess, with chess pieces, and is also playing by the rules.”
Over and over I have see this, and tonight George/Hymie has given us a masterful demonstration.

Next ………. the search goes on for an honest man or women in this group that might answer the questions and refute the scriptures I have laid out.

_____________________________________________________

So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

Once again, posted for the fifth time in a number of weeks here, the scriptures addressing the suffering of the saints. Many deal with the perfecting and healing of the soul.

from Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a mature son. You are going to have to hoe a long path to get around God’s use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

” …. we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously…

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

“That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;…Phil. 3:10

Matt. 10:38 – Jesus said, “he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.”

Luke 9:23 – Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Rom. 5:2-3 – Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 – Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 – the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ’s sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well.

Phil. 1:29 – for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God’s plan.

Col. 1:24 – Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions for the sake of His body.

2 Tim. 1:8 – Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 – Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.

Heb. 12:5-7 – do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

1 Peter 2:19-21 – Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

“And they could not answer him again to these things.” Lk 14:6

Jack
Cliffon 22 Nov 2008 at 12:33 am link comment

It’s OK Jack. You are coming back here for a reason. When you finally face your own fear you will find the peace your looking for. You don’t have to worry, we’re not going to attack you. You are safe. Come out of the bush my friend and sit down with the Lord of ALL.
Jeff & Kateon 22 Nov 2008 at 4:01 am link comment

Jack the letter killeth but the Spirit gives Life, what you have been taught is new-age and a form of gnostisim, close to self mutilation mentally. That is not Godly suffering, its woe is me and everyone should be like me. No brother we have a different image and likeness the corporate body of Christ.We all have been accepted into the beloved by God at Calvary.
His Grace is sufficient for us all
Love Jeff and Kate.
geoon 22 Nov 2008 at 6:25 am link comment

There you go again Jack saying things I did NOT say!
You said….
Oh my George, now we get rid of the New Testament. I guess it is less than inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Your two answers could not hold up against the scriptures I quote so now you trash the New Testament.

I NEVER SAID ANY OF THAT!!!!
I said and I quote: The issue with all or your responses Jack is that you believe the things are “scripture” that Jesus NEVER said were “scripture”

Please Jack show me what Jesus said the “scriptures” were? And tell me if you believe that the “scriptures” are more than what Jesus defined them as? Well do you?

Peace
Geo
geoon 22 Nov 2008 at 6:38 am link comment

Jeff & Kate wrote:
No brother we have a different image and likeness the corporate body of Christ.We all have been accepted into the beloved by God at Calvary.
His Grace is sufficient for us all.

AMEN!
Thanks for the GOOD NEWS! And thank you for the manner in which you present yourselves here at Bold Grace.

Peace
Geo
Jeff & Kateon 22 Nov 2008 at 7:20 am link comment

NOw Jack this is suffering! Love Jeff and Kate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo
Geoon 22 Nov 2008 at 7:41 am link comment

Jeff & Kate
Now that is suffering! hahaha!
Thanks for the laugh this morning

Peace
Geo
Sueon 22 Nov 2008 at 10:15 am link comment

Jack, excuse me, you said “Yet God told me, you weren’t looking for truth but only a way to placate your deceitful soul”.

GOD TOLD YOU????? How does he do that? Cell phone? So you say God talks to you about me? I don’t think God gossips and I certainly know HE would not take Jack aside to talk to him about me or anyone. Jack your EGO is deceiving you. You are a religious fanatic and quite nuts.

I did not ask for your help, Jack.

Jack, in your opinion, if we die with our understanding and you die with your understanding what will happen to each of us?

Jack, what do I need to do to be like you?

Because he first loved us – Sue
Jack Hennesseyon 22 Nov 2008 at 1:03 pm link comment

Once again the questions they could not answer and the corresponding scriptures the “lawless it is finished/I am perfect” crowd can not explain away. Why can they not deal with these scriptures? Because it speaks to the perfecting of the saints. That’s tough when you hold that you are already perfect. And the audacity of one of the teachers here that writes a suicide post titled, “My Last Post” to proclaim he has a peace that others desire. Yeah, right! This place with it’s New Age philosophies is a cesspool of deceit and we can only hope others would avoid it.

So once again for the umpteenth time, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

Once again, posted for the sixth time in a number of weeks, the scriptures addressing the suffering of the saints as they share the cross and are conformed into Christ’s image. Many deal with the perfecting and healing of the soul and the building up of the body of Christ.

From Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a mature son. You are going to have to hoe a long path to get around God’s use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

“And they could not answer him again to these things.” Lk 14:6

(this quote is from Jesus which means Jack sees himself as Jesus, which is quite wonderful because this makes him perfect. Way to go Jack, you have finally arrived where we have always been.) added by Cliff

Jack
Geoon 22 Nov 2008 at 1:16 pm link comment

Jack your question has already been answered. In case you over looked the answer here it is again…

*Jack Asked:

*So once again, yes or no.

* Is suffering a tool used of God in our salvation?

YES! But not ours or yours Jack. It was the suffering of Jesus

* Does God use suffering in the perfecting His saints?

YES! But not ours or yours Jack. It was the suffering of Jesus

So why won’t you answer this one? Asked for the second time.

Tell me if you believe that the “scriptures” are more than what Jesus defined them as? Well do you?

Peace
Geo
Jack Hennesseyon 22 Nov 2008 at 1:36 pm link comment

(this quote is from Jesus which means Jack sees himself as Jesus, which is quite wonderful because this makes him perfect. Way to go Jack, you have finally arrived where we have always been.) added by Cliff

That’s the first time ever in all the years I have spent on the internet that I have seen someone edit a post of a participant by adding his thoughts. That is nasty stuff and demonstrates the ways of the lawless here.

Pull your thoughts back off my post Cliff. That is pure deceit and the worse demonstration of control at all costs I have ever seen. If you are this out of control go get some meds, pal.

(SORRY pal. It will not be removed and we most likely will add more thoughts to your comments. Cliff pass me the meds Jack said you needed because I most likely need them to! hahaha.) Added by Geo
Jack Hennesseyon 22 Nov 2008 at 2:04 pm link comment

(SORRY pal. It will not be removed and we most likely will add more thoughts to your post. Cliff pass me the meds Jack said you needed because I most likely need them to! hahaha. Added by Geo)

Once again you add to my comment. That’s probably the best demonstration of the lack of credibility to your BoldGrace message. By your underhanded manipulations you show how phony this place really is. You have to protect your lawless and foul message with all lengths of dishonesty (you are the dishonest one Jack) added by geo

What’s it like to live with such dishonesty? (its wonderful Jack) added by geo
What’s it like knowing in your heart you are a phony? (SORRY pal we are not the phony here) added by geo
Could this explain the suicidal tendency that rides along side this BoldGrace message? I think so. (SORRY pal you lose again) added by geo
Jack Hennesseyon 22 Nov 2008 at 2:12 pm link comment

I am sure you guys will sink further than what you have already done but at least you got the message.
(The ONLY message we have heard from you Jack is one of a scared and fear filled man. Our Father loves you Jack you can come out from the darkness into the Light of Jesus -Added by Geo)

I am sure you will deceitfully manipulate everything further to keep the outside of the cup looking good.
(Jack you are projecting you and your actions on us – Added by Geo)

What a bunch of lawless inept goofballs.
(You are projecting again Jack – Added by Geo)

Sad as it may be I am entertained as I have never seen a group go to such lengths while naming Christ.

Added By Cliff: Jack….you have the right to be a jerk and we have the right to edit. No one changed your words or said you said what we added. We are here to help you find your way out of the darkness of fear and condemnation. If you don’t like our edits then you don’t have to leave a comment. It’s OK Jack…..come on home.

Added By Geo: Ditto Jack! And again as Cliff said… Come on Home!
Jeff & Kateon 22 Nov 2008 at 2:35 pm link comment

Jack we must read in context, The jumble sale that you have tried to sell, is such a mixture. We really need to read all the chapters to see truth.Six things happened to us at Calvary,we were Crucified,Dead and Buried In Christ. And we are Quickened , Raised and Seated in Him. Unfortunetly we suffer in ignorace of the Good News.
1Peter2-21 Christ suffered for us.
1Peter4-12 Christ suffered.
Phillipians3-10 His Death.
Mathew10-36 and Luke 9-23. Still under law, did the Disciples fulfill this command? Or did all deny Him under law? All fell short. when we use this scripture out of context, we put burdens on people they cannot bear. They suffer under Law and fall short of the glory of God. Jesus took up the cross and fulfilled the Law and it passed away. Now it is the Law of the Spirit of Life that has made us free from the Law of Sin and Death.
Romans 5-23 Read all of Romans it is about Law and Grace. We have religious minsets that bring suffering and pain, till we see that His grace is sufficient for us and His Love is shed abroad by the Holy Spirit in our hearts.
Romans 8-17,18. We at Calvary were joined in HIS sufferings.
2Corinthians1-5,6,7. Christ sufferings.
Philipians1-29 Colossians 1-24. Must read it properly. There was such persucution then and still is in many parts of the world. Paul was telling them of who they are in Christ. We so need to get a revelation of His grace.
Hebrews 12-5,6,7. Once again in context, Law and Grace, lay aside the weight Jack that has easily beset you. And that weight is the Law. GRACE BE UNTO YOU. Live in His Life not Death.We suffer in ignorace!
Jack Hennesseyon 23 Nov 2008 at 12:28 am link comment

“Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive”
(You are projecting yourself again Jack – Added by Geo)

So Cliff writes his suicidal message “My Last Post” and George replies he has felt that this same way for a long time. Here is George’s agreement with the suicidal thoughts posted in Cliff’s conveniently deleted and infamous “My Last Post “:

“I so respect what Cliff wrote in his post “My Last Post” And I too have felt that way for a long time.” (George)

(NOW WHO IS TWISTING? When I wrote that it was in response to Cliff’s post entitled, “My Last Post” about quitting blogging. When that post was written I had no idea what other things Cliff was dealing with. You Jack have now been totally exposed as spinmeister of the greatest kind. You accuse us of doing the same things that you do. Again you are projecting on us your own ways and they will not stand to the truth – Added by Geo)

Yep, by all means I want the same peace these two sad, lawless, cowardly and deceitful characters have.
(Again Jack you are projecting what you see in the mirror onto us here at Bold Grace. Sorry no points scored – Added by Geo)

I so want to be suicidal also. What a joke this BoldGrace message is and worse is the deceit that shrouds it and protects it.
(Projection again Jack – Added by Geo)

Never in ten years on the internet have I seen anyone manipulate another’s personal comments, post or messages as I have seen here. That is why we have our names above our comments and when one adds their own thoughts below another’s name you have stepped where none have gone before in their deceit. George and Cliff you are quite the pair and God help any young soul that you would come in contact with.
(Projection of yourself again Jack – Added by Geo)

This is a good word (below) from centuries ago. It is as good today as it was then. It points to the ways of the lawless here that do everything in their power to protect their false Deity.
(You are projecting your beliefs about God on to us again Jack Added by Geo)

Their calf of gold gives them a false temporal comfort that will always fail them as it did the two suicidal yahoos, George and Cliff.

“How, seeing that the Life of Christ is most bitter to Nature and Self, Nature will have none of it, and chooseth a false careless Life, as is most convenient to her.

NOW, since the life of Christ is every way most bitter to nature and the Self and the Me (for in the true life of Christ, the Self and the Me and nature must be forsaken and lost, and die altogether), therefore, in each of us, nature hath a horror of it, and thinketh it evil and unjust and a folly, and graspeth after such a life as shall be most comfortable and pleasant to herself, and saith, and believeth also in her blindness, that such a life is the best possible. Now, nothing is so comfortable and pleasant to nature, as a free, careless way of life, therefore she clingeth to that, and taketh enjoyment in herself and her own powers, and looketh only to her own peace and comfort and the like. And this happeneth most of all, where there are high natural gifts of reason, for that soareth upwards in its own light and by its own power, till at last it cometh to think itself the true Eternal Light, and giveth itself out as such, and is thus deceived in itself, and deceiveth other people along with it, who know no better, and also are thereunto inclined.”

An Anonymous Teutonic “Friend of God”
written in the mid 1300’s
Jeff & Kateon 23 Nov 2008 at 1:00 am link comment

Jack you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear!Even when your questions are answered. Christ crucified has been evidently set before you, and you try and bring perfection by the works of the flesh. By Grace and Grace alone, it is sufficient .
Love Jeff and Kate.
Jack Hennesseyon 23 Nov 2008 at 5:43 am link comment

Nah Jeff you are a twisting enabler that perverts the scriptures
(twisting enabler that perverts the scriptures sounds like you are projecting yourself again Jack – Added by Geo)

and thus gives license to the suicidal tendencies so prevalent here at BoldGrace.

You willingly disregard the law. You totally turn Romans, which your sorely depressed
(sorely depressed sounds like you are projecting yourself again Jack – Added by Geo)

compadre George/Hymie says is not scripture up side down.

(Jack, YOU NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION! What are The Scriptures according to Jesus and do you believe they are MORE than what Jesus said they were? – Added by Geo)

I listened to Romans 7 of this series by Stephen Jones tonight and it will show others how you deceitfully twist the scriptures to negate the law.

The whole series is good if one cares to understand the law and how it is very much in effect today, even in the New Covenant. Here is the link (LINK REMOVE at commenter’s request.) for anyone that will not be hoodwinked by these suicidal sissies

(Jack, YOU NEVER ANSWERED THE QUESTION! What are The Scriptures according to Jesus and do you believe they are MORE than what Jesus said they were? Maybe you are the sissy? Step up and answer the question, “What are The Scriptures according to Jesus and do you believe they are MORE than what Jesus said they were”? – Added by Geo)

here that care not to finish the race but only desire the corruptible comforts of a fallen world. Give these guys a tough spot in life and they wet their pants and fold like a house of cards.

(You are projecting again Jack. Why do you hate yourself so? Our Father loves you and accepts you. Come out from your darkness into the light of Christ. We welcome you. Come on Home. – Added by Geo)

Be blessed,

Jack
Jack Hennesseyon 23 Nov 2008 at 6:25 am link comment

Why are these guys suicidal sissies?
(Your fantasy does not equal reality Jack – Added by Geo)

Because they have allowed the lawless soul to rule their lives and the soul is at enmity with the spirit. The soul when it leads will take a man to the grave by any and all means ie. Cliff’s suicidal “My Last Post.” The Spirit of Christ is the overcomer within and those that follow the Spirit fulfil the law and overcome the world and all it throws at us.

(Jackie, Jackie, Jackie. You have twisted these passages to your own flesh filled interpretations and self righteous desires. Overcoming the “world” is when we no longer as the world does seek approval through our words, actions and deeds. It is the “world” and its ways that tries to please God and itself and fellow man through the flesh. Oh foolish Jackie, having begun in the Spirit are you now trying to perfect yourself through your flesh? This is very “worldly of you. Your do good get good, do bad get beat gospel is a FALSE one. Come on home little Jackie, the Father awaits. – Added by Geo)

There are no diapered suicidal sissies in the kingdom.

(I agree Jack! There are none! There is only ONE in the Kingdom. And we are ALL in Him. Thanks for the reminder. – Added by Geo)
Jeff & Kateon 23 Nov 2008 at 7:18 am link comment

Jack you see what you want to see and you hear what you want to hear!
But it does not change God’s view and opinion of you. Because He see’s Christ , His many membered corporate son. Once again Grace be multiplied to you.
Love Jeff and Kate.

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