How Do We Explain God?
Recently Marco gave us an interesting quote to ponder:
“If God is God then God is not good, if God is good then God is not God”
If I’m not wrong this is a favorite quote of many an atheist. That being said, I am not an atheist and yet I think this quote has much to learn from.
Let me start with the first part: "IF GOD IS GOD THEN GOD IS NOT GOOD." First, let me say that only a person partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil would describe God as GOOD. God is neither good nor evil. As I have said before I only use the term "God" because I know it is the term most relate to and it is what I grew up with. The word GOOD is a only a word that can not possibly describe what God is. God is so beyond what we can even imagine and because of our limited abilities in this physical state we end up using words to describe an energy that can not be described by human words. And so I have in the past called God "God", and even a God who is Good but I fully realize that my description of our creator is completely inadequate and spoiled by my own limits to communicate.
Secondly. "IF GOD IS GOOD, GOD IS NOT GOD". If I look at a rainbow and say "That’s nice", what I’m saying is true but it wouldn’t begin to describe the beauty and complicated nature of a rainbow. That may be a poor example but it works for me. If I say God is Good that doesn’t begin to truly describe the energy behind our creator and yet the simplicity of my words may still be true and God is still God.
The best minds of the human race that have ever lived have asked these same questions about God and they are still asking. For me I still like the following answer in describing God:
Ex 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
What a profound statement, I AM THAT I AM. There are things we are just not equipped to fathom on this earth, but I’m glad that the I AM, GOD, FATHER, OR WHATEVER OTHER TERM YOU WISH TO USE has given each of us such inquisitive minds to search Him out.
I’m also glad for all those who come here with open minds willing to learn even when that learning may go against everything we thought yesterday.
THANKS MARCO FOR MAKING US THINK.
“First, let me say that only a person partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil would describe God as GOOD. God is neither good nor evil”.
That statement is one that will cause the religious mindset to freak out!
But it is in my opinion true and one of the roots that keep tripping mankind in his quest for God. God never intended us to know good from evil. That was the temptation of Adam that Adam failed in the garden. It happened when the tempter said, “IF, you eat from the tree you will be LIKE God knowing good from evil”. The truth was they were ALREADY like God! And by eating of the tree they had their identity stolen. They had already been told you were made in our image by God.
But not believing that they ate.
The cross restored your identity so you no longer have to eat of that tree!
Peace
Geo
Cliff, I’m glad you picked up from my post from Inspired by God that God describes himself as “I AM THAT I AM” for this new post. God “IS” and that is enough for me to know he is in control and ultimately has our best interest in his hands. I loved an old song “He’s got the whole world in his hands”, ever heard it?
Geo, I think God is good as I stated in my last post on Inspired by God. As far as eating of the tree humans still do as we struggle to understand God and this world of good and evil. We still endure the result of man eating of the tree because we die.
The serpent did not say you will know good FROM evil, he said you will know good AND evil. Big difference. Because he first loved us - Sue
Geo, You said “First let me say that only a person partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil would describe God as GOOD. God is neither good or evil.”
Matthew 19:17 says “And he said unto them, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mark 10:18 says “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”
Please read my last post on Inspired by God and let me know what you think.
Because he first loved us - Sue
Matthew 19:7 and Mark 10:18 (quoted above by Sue) are the scriptures I thought of when I read Cliff’s post. How would you reconcile that scripture (and others like it) with the concept that God is NOT good? I would say there are many descriptors that can be used in an attempt to describe God. None of them are adequate, of course. Just as a rainbow can’t be described by one paltry word, even more so neither can God. Still, I would say that “good” is one of the many descriptors that can be used of God, as well as many others.
Luke 18:19 says “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God.
Psalm 143:10 says “Teach me to do thy will; for thou art my God: thy SPIRIT IS GOOD; lead me into the land of uprightness”
Because he first loved us - Sue
I have no problem with calling God good as I said earlier because I know it is a human description, but I rarely call Him that or even think of God in that way anymore because once you have been awakened to the true identity of mankind (which even includes me) you realize that all of God’s creation is PERFECT (complete in Him) and IN HIM there is NO EVIL. Doesn’t that change the idea of GOOD? Our view of GOOD (even in the scriptures Sue quoted) is tainted by our corrupted minds. Jesus spoke to us on a level we could understand. He used thoughts we could relate to but we must always remember: God’s thoughts are not our thoughts. On one level I know that I am perfect and yet on another I know that this PERFECTION (GOD) is casting out all fears and fear is always related to evil. I think that’s why I view God differently almost every day. The more fear that is cast out the more open and beutiful all of life seems. That doesn’t mean I don’t encounter tough circumstances, but there is a peace within me (and I think has always been there) that sustains me in all things.
Peace,
Cliff
Our view of GOOD (even in the scriptures Sue quoted) is tainted by our corrupted minds.(Cliff)
Isnt this just a way of saying that we are inherently Bad, and if you truly believe in a Creator that is neither Good nor Bad then how does its creation become Bad if it created it? I like so much of what you have to say and then …….whoops I see your religious mindset creep back into your words. Speak for yourself when you talk of “Corrupted” minds, I would prefer not to be lumped in with that “Religious” way of thinking. Most fears are born of not feeling “good” enough and if your thoughts about yourself are predicated on the belief that you are born of a “corrupted mind” then how can you ever get past your fears?
Maybe “bad” is “good” and we just haven’t seen it yet.
I am more and more convinced that this earth was created to teach us all something while we’re in our human (physical) form. If you think about it, how can we ever know what “good” is if we would never experience “bad”? How can we recongnize heaven if we’ve never known hell?
Those are good points Titfortat. I get past my fears because of the revelation of Jesus Christ, and yes I do have a religious mindset because in all of the awakening that has happened to me in my life Jesus is still very real to me.
And by the way, I never said we were born corrupted. I believe we were born perfect (just the way God made us) but our mind (which is a physical attribute) was allowed by God to see the illusion of evil (being corrupted). I also believe God is allowing us to be re-awakened to our perfection by the revelation of Jesus Christ which came to mankind at just the right time in our evolution.
But as Bruce says it much more simply: I am more and more convinced that this earth was created to teach us all something while we’re in our human (physical) form.”
Sue I DID NOT SAY THIS….“First, let me say that only a person partaking of the tree of the knowledge of good & evil would describe God as GOOD. God is neither good nor evil”.
I QUOTED IT. Big difference
Peace
Geo
Bruce
Heres one for ya!
A Universalist minister of an obstreperous
congregation became annoyed at the infighting
during a meeting of the board. Interrupting them,
he asked the board members what Universalism
meant to them. On this one thing, they agreed,
“Universalism means universal salvation; all of us
are going to heaven when we die.”
The minister said, “You know, if I were God, I’d
put you guys in mansions right next to each other
and make you live together for a million years or so
until you learned to get along with each other.”
Loved it Titfortat!!! Maybe the next post ought to be on “WHY DO WE SEE THINGS SO DIFFERENTLY?”
Geo,
No problem for me that it is a quote - from where? You said in your opinion it was true - still no problem for me, I just stated what I think on the subject. I stand by the bible verses that tell me God is good. Because he first loved us - Sue
ALL:
During the creation process it was said several times - “and God saw that it was good”, and after all was created Genesis 1:31 says And God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. Good must be important to God.
What kind of knowledge do you think Adam and Eve had before their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil? Maybe all would still die but without awareness? Just wondering. Any thoughts on this?
Because he first loved us - Sue
What kind of knowledge do you think Adam and Eve had before their eyes were opened to the knowledge of good and evil?(Sue)
You dont actually believe Adam and Eve were real people do you?
Every story told in the Bible is a picture of us today, RIGHT NOW. The Bible is not a history, it’s an up-to-the-minute revelation. The story of Adam and Eve is a picture of each one of us. They were created as one, (Adam - spirit, Eve - soul) in the likeness of that ONE, and as such they had the nature of that ONE, and all the attributes of that ONE. That is us (you and me, Adam + Eve, spirit and soul). At creation we were in unison, both male and female and as such able to obey the command to ‘go forth and multiply’. Spiritual multiplication! That one being had a body formed for it from the dust of the earth into which that ONE (the I AM) breathed the breath of life, human life. That one body slept and in the dream-world the female part (soul - our mind, our emotions and our will) became separate. We are still in the dream world, our mind (knowledge of good and evil) feeds us the lie that we are separate from the spirit, when the truth is that the spirit resides WITHIN us. Our Adam never sinned but as Christ took the fruit and resultant death to reconcile our spirit and soul together. It’s our mind that deceives us, and it’s time we woke up to realise the only way out of this mess we’ve created ‘as gods’ is to turn from our head way of thinking to the heart where the superior knowledge is, and allow the spirit to teach us.
Yes, Titfortat, they ARE real people. You and me!
Audrey, What I love about this site is how we can exchange and grow from each other because we really are each other. I loved how you explained Adam & Eve and wondered if that is just your take on things or did you read this from someone else? Either way, I’m glad you shared it.
Yes, Titfortat, they ARE real people. You and me!(Audrey)
Well I guess maybe I could go back to the garden and remain Blissfully ignorant………..NOT. Geez sometimes I wonder why people get out of bed. I LOVE the duality of life. Thats what allows me the choice to choose. And with that choice I get to experience life fully. Bring me some more of that freaking fruit….chomp, chomp, chomp.
Audrey,
Sorry, that is harder to believe than the original traditional way. It does not make sense to me. What discipline do you study ?
Titfortat,
Do you ask any ?’s from bible stories? What exactly do you believe? As of right now I like the Adam and Eve story - until I make sense of it in a different way. How do you see it? Why would you ask another human, who is trying to understand, a question in a demeaning way as if you are superior? You did not answer my ? you repeated. Because you can’t?
Because e first loved us - Sue
As of right now I like the Adam and Eve story - until I make sense of it in a different way. How do you see it? Why would you ask another human, who is trying to understand, a question in a demeaning way as if you are superior?(sue)
Well Im trying to see where you are coming from. As in, do you take all the stories of the bible literally? Its easier to answer questions when you understand peoples thought patterns. I do not take most stories in the bible literally. As far as the Adam and Eve story, I find it fascinating that God would put the tree in the middle of the garden and tell them not to eat of it. From my viewpoint God wanted them to eat it, because if you think about it, if they dont, what kind of relationship would they really have? They wouldnt know the difference between Good and Bad and would have no choices to make in regards to what makes a relationship healthy. Kind of boring, dont you think?
Titfortat,
Since I was a child I have always thought some of the stories in the bible were not meant to be taken literally. So, no, I do not take most stories in the bible literally but I do think they are in there for a reason and I like to ponder what they mean and I like to get other peoples views as well. I believe all things are inspired of God. Since God created all then anyones voice is an inspiration of God for some purpose. I have not come to a conclusion yet about what I think of the Adam and Eve story. I want to know more from Audrey and anyone else who wants to share their view.
As far as your viewpoint, If Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree I think they would have been happy with whatever they had with God. I don’t think it would have been boring because that would be all they knew. But they were given a choice so that is what we have to go on. I find in fastenating that God took them out of the garden so they would not eat of the tree of life and live forever in impending and sure death. I also wonder why they did not choose the tree of life to eat from first.
What exactly do you believe about God? Are you a believer? Atheist? I can never tell from your posts.
I am reading “Jesus for the Non-Religious” which is about not taking bible stories literally and why. Have you read it? It is extremely interesting to me.
Thank you for answering with kindness. It makes all the difference in wanting to correspond with you.
Because he first loved us - Sue
Audrey, I hope you will elaborate on your view from your last post and let me know how you came to this view. It is interesting to me. Because he first loved us - Sue
All I can say in reply is it is written in our hearts or to put another way ‘from JC’. Remember the two who were walking to Emaeus? they were joined by someone who began at the beginning and revealed to them all the scriptures concerning himself. As they ate this spiritual food, they recognised him for who he is - THE ONE, and their ‘hearts burned within them’. We are those two going on life’s journey, and in our hearts is written all we long to know, that ’superior’ knowledge (not ignorance) is readily available if we just turn from our heads to our hearts.
I was always taught by the church that bad things such as pain, sickness, etc were b/c of the “original sin” and still being under a curse. But recently I thought about animals; they go through many of the same sufferings as human beings and die yet they never “sinned”. I don’t know at this point if the Adam and Eve story is literal or not but I think eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil made a separation in humanity’s mindset. Animals don’t seem to feel alienated from God.
Thanks Audrey. I agree that our answers have always been with us.
Kiara, Very good point about the animals. I always loved the thought that DOG spelled backwards is GOD.
re the animals and going back to the analogy of Adam and Eve. There are various forms of life, animal life, bird life, fish life plant life etc, but in man was breathed the breath of LIVES (plural) by whom? The Lord God or Jehovah Elohim. (two lives). Jehovah is the title for the divine part and Elohim is the title for the man part. The animals have one life and it is characterised by instinct.
So the beauty of knowing that our Dad gave us two lives (the two trees) is that we have a daily choice of which life we live from. We can choose to live from our ‘head’, i.e. to live from how we’ve been trained to think, or to live from the ‘heart’, that spiritual life within all of us. It’s like two worlds or dimensions, one is reached by our mind and its imagination, characterised by judging everything as good or bad. The other is reached by thinking from our heart and is characterised by LIFE and LOVE. We can choose, the animals do not have this capability - they are waiting for us to eventually make the right decision and take them out of the bondage of the pain and death they suffer at present. Just think of the possibilities when the lion and lamb can lie down together in peace. All that and much more is waiting for US to move in the right direction - deeper, to discover our REAL selves, that divine life!
Thanks Audrey. It has always been my heart that has lead me to the great treasures of truth.
I think God is good - at least that has been my experience with God.
There are some very interesting comments made, I really enjoyed Audreys creative take.
One thing about this topic of Gods goodness, the first question that comes to mind is if God cannot even meet the human standard of good what kind of God are we really embracing? Not only that but how does he manage to get a free pass into I AM without goodness?
The God of the OT, of which all the NT writings are based from, has serious anger managament issues, is responsibe for mass genocide, killing disobedient victims in a flash(but sometimes having patience), has a select chosen people, enemies of these chosen are fishbait, virtually raping a young maiden named Mary(what choice did she have in the matter?) and impregnating her, and we celebrate this?
I could go on and on but no need, with the above examples alone can we credit the theistic God of the bible with goodness? I know I cannot. A God who needs the blood of perfect sacrifices to appease its anger? If we cannot see the barbarcity of such a being then what are we seeing? Religion and justification of religious ideals. Tribal mentality. A God that was relevent in that day but not this day.
In the wake of science and reason this God is on his death bed, the world has no use for such and has moved on.
Luke 18:19 says “And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is God.”
God is good.
Jesus also said the kingdom of God is within you, if it is within us then it is not without us. Divinity itself then is a human concept. This realm of goodness is within us, out of this goodness comes love faith mercy grace loving kindness patience tenderness peace. This has always been since the dawn of conscousness, its the awakening to the fact that is new, that is now. It is the realization, the awareness of this Life, that we neither made up or created with perceptions, or attached doctrines to and made religious love with.
We realize that God is not a being, but the Ground of All Being. This is I AM and the essense thereof.
At the end of the day we see that God is really good afterall.
Marco,
Perhaps God in his wisdom let “stories” be written so man would evolve to realize it is within him/her to love and discern good and evil. I love the bible stories because they help me discern. The story of Lot always made me angry and taught me these were stories from a time when mankind knew little about the earth or heavens, illness, or each other, or God for that matter. I believe we have a better understanding, yet people in many countries (and the U.S.) still live in bible time poverty and so behave. Our world is still violent and much is loveless. We have a big job ahead of us to teach this “new age - old age Jesus love” to them. Yes, God is within and without, in nature. Because he first loved us - Sue
ALL:
In my post above “bible time poverty” means lack of scientific knowledge which in our day gives us a different take on God. Also I apologize for all misspelled words and commas in wrong places. It is hard to convey our thoughts with all the right language and punctuation(I think I spelled that wrong) and so we are misunderstood many times. Because he first loved us - Sue
Cliff, perhaps you can explain something for me?
Why should we be shy in calling God “good”? He calls himself good. The psalmists call him good. Jesus calls him good. Paul calls him good. He is called “good” throughout the scriptures. So, I’m not sure that it’s my place to come along and say that my awareness is advanced that I can declare that He’s not.
I think it’s something to be celebrated. God is good. Thank **** for that! I/we had best avoid the knowledge of good and evil, because it’s not for us. Only God gets to make such declarations - and he says that He’s good.
The thing is, I’m pretty sure that you’d agree with all that. So, I suspect I’ve just embarrassed myself by completely missing your point!
graham,
You are right, God has told us he is GOOD thru mankinds writings and Nature, and our own thoughts and hearts. ALL God inspired. But along with that is the evil and bad things attributed to God in the bible (and natural disasters) as well. Each person will struggle with both until death. BG is a place for us to struggle together and help each other. Since God inspired (created/made)ALL things we are just trying to understand the negative along with the positive.
Because he first loved us - Sue
Graham,
You have never to be embarrassed for anything. There is nothing wrong whatsoever with calling and seeing God as good. I guess for me because I have faced some very difficult circumstances I have learned that my understanding of good is so limited by my humanness. I don’t believe evil exists in God. I do believe all of us are IN God, so does evil exist at all or is it just an illusion based on our eating of the tree of the knowledge of Good & Evil. As I have said many times, WE are so limited in our ability to even understand the concept of GOD, and so we fumble around using language that best describes Him. Good is a description but it doesn’t come close to what God is. That’s one reason why you will hear me describe God as PERFECT much more then you will hear me say He is Good. The word PERFECT means “COMPLETE”. None of us understand God’s perfection and yet we too are PERFECT in HIM.
Marco, You have made many important points about how we approach the Bible, but I still think it is a book that God intended for mankind to have. As I have stated before I think within it are LIES and TRUTHS and as Audrey has pointed out we need to look to our heart of hearts within to know what are the lies and what are the truths.
Sue, I too enjoy the stories of the Bible especially since I have come to trust my own inward heart in discerning what I should trust and what I should discard.
Jesus said: You search the scriptures daily thinking that in them you shall find eternal life, but they are that which testifies of ME.
Who is the ME? Isn’t that the Christ within ALL of US?
My grasp is that God never intended nor ever does nor ever will, God simply just IS.
In my stripping down of the bible don’t think I am against it, there are nuggets of treasure to be found, there is poetic language that is unmatched and wisdom to be gleaned, I just see it as epic history not literal history, as inspired not literally but spiritually, as frozen in time but pointing to that which is beyond time, good stuff