The Last Will Be First!
The following story shows us that in the Kingdom of God our efforts to achieve is not taken into account when it comes to the generousity of the Father.
Matt 20:1-161 "For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire men to work in his vineyard.2 He agreed to pay them a denarius for the day and sent them into his vineyard.3 "About the third hour he went out and saw others standing in the marketplace doing nothing.4 He told them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard, and I will pay you whatever is right.’5 So they went. "He went out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour and did the same thing.6 About the eleventh hour he went out and found still others standing around. He asked them, ‘Why have you been standing here all day long doing nothing?’7 "’Because no one has hired us,’ they answered. "He said to them, ‘You also go and work in my vineyard.’8 "When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the workers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last ones hired and going on to the first.’9 "The workers who were hired about the eleventh hour came and each received a denarius.10 So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.11 When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.12 ‘These men who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’13 "But he answered one of them, ‘Friend, I am not being unfair to you. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius?14 Take your pay and go. I want to give the man who was hired last the same as I gave you.15 Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous?’16 "So the last will be first, and the first will be last."
It never ceases to amaze me how so many people demand that God be FAIR. I for one am glad that He isn’t fair when it comes to being generous.
The first group of workers received from the owner (God) exactly what was agreed upon: To work for the day they would receive a denarious. God was FAIR.
The second group of workers were also given an opportunity to earn something for a partial day’s work and were told they would be treated right (fairly).
The third group of workers were hired to only work a very small part of the day and at the end of that short day they received the same amount as the first group. God was very generous.
Now out of these three groups of people only one group of people grumbled about how they were treated and it was the group that had worked the hardest. Unfortunately, it’s the same way today. Those who think they have accomplished all that God has asked of them are always the ones who grumble at the thought that someone might receive God’s abundant provision of GRACE without completing all that God requires. I have talked with hundreds of christians telling them that I believe God will bring every single human child back home and almost without exception you will hear them say, "You mean they don’t have to do anything and God’s going to let them in?"
Why can’t we allow God to be that GENEROUS? Why can’t we believe GRACE CAN BE THAT BOLD?
Good thoughts, Cliff. A similar thing is seen in the story of the Prodigal Son. The elder brother was upset that the prodigal should be forgiven so easily after he (the elder brother) had stayed at home and been responsible. I think the attitude one has about grace may have a lot to do with how we see ourselves. If we see ourselves as the prodigal, we’ll be grateful for the grace and mercy which God sends equally to all. If we see ourselves as the elder brother, having always been responsible and not seeing that we have done anything all that bad, we may resent it, thinking the prodigal should have to “earn” forgiveness. The key, I think, is to realize we are all prodigals and all in need of grace and mercy. Then, we simply fall on our faces in awe and gratitude when we realize it’s there for us. That’s why pride is such a terrible thing – it blinds us to the truth about ourselves and our need. Whereas, humility allows us to see ourselves as we really are, full of frailties and faults and needs.
Well said Connie.
Excellent…. I am always amazed that, though that scripture points out our flaw, we continue to be envious when God is generous!
My daughter and her friend have been bagging air conditioning duct and getting paid $1.00 each per piece – as happily agreed to by both employer and employee on commencement. The boss’s daughter and son make duct as well and sometimes we suspect they write down $20.00 each even when they haven’t bagged 20 duct. It’s amazing how our feathers get ruffled when this happens but it is exactly like that parable! $1.00 per piece seems fine so long as everybody gets paid the same! And yet the girls are getting paid exactly what they happily agreed to. Interesting.
Julia,
The girls need to learn to renegociate!
Cliff,
A great post, Thanks. I once heard a man describe something he prayed for and got it but was not pleased so he said “watch out for what you pray for, you just may get it”!!
Because he first loved us – Sue
“Why can’t we allow God to be that GENEROUS? Why can’t we believe GRACE CAN BE THAT BOLD?”
Because we are sinful people, immersed in the self. In bondage to sin. We do not want to freed from it. We actually like sinning. We don’t want to trust or believe God.
It is only by His great love for sinners and His mercy on us that He gives us the faith required to believe in Him or this graciousness.
Even then, we constantly run away from it and he has to constantly bring us back to the fold. That’s why we need to hear His promises ALL THE TIME!
Repentance and forgiveness…over and over and over again…that the life of the believer/unbeliever (saint and sinner simultaneously)
I think Adam and Eve had the “GOOD” knowledge but did not know it as good before they ate of the tree of G&E. After they ate & their eyes were opened(to the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil) they knew they were naked and covered themselves. Nakedness had no negative/positive meaning until then. So becoming aware of good and evil meant they now had concerns they never had before. They now saw and experienced evil as well as good. Before they ate, good was all they had and it was not a concern because they did not “know” it was good and could not discern it as good. After they ate, both good and evil are seen and experienced and both a concern. So earth life in our clay bodies cannot enjoy only good, for evil is always mixed in or lingering close to alter good or diminish good. God in his great wisdom did not let man eat also of the tree of life and lifespan came into existance. He did not want mankind to live in this state of impending and sure death forever. But death has no sting as it will no longer be experienced because of God/Jesus Christ and their plan – upon death to change us in the twinkling of an eye back to the created being who only experienced God and good. Evil will be a memory but not experienced anymore. Therefore, we will praise God forevermore! Meanwhile, while on earth we do our best to discern good and evil knowing we all will be with him again in our original state – the complete image of God. And we will KNOW it! Now that is BoldGrace!
What are your thoughts on this subject?
Because he first loved us – Sue
Does God judge good and evil today after the Cross? I don’t think so. I think He opened the Tree of Life to all mankind at the Cross and we have access to it now. Is it possible that the knowledge of good and evil is the source of judgmental thinking? Determining what is right and what is wrong? Which in turn is why we demand fairness?
When I gave up my right to determine right and wrong, an amazing transformation began to happen inside me. Judgmentalism lessened. I began seeing people as equal. The Cross rightly recognized for what it accomplished transforms hearts and minds. The Cross leveled the playing field.
Some great comments on this subject by all. I tend to agree with Mary that something wonderful happened at the cross (the fullness of time) and it very well may be that the tree of life is now available for us to partake of. At the same time I think Sue makes a good point that we are still plagued by a false illusion of Good and Evil in this clay body. I know for me great peace came when I made a focused effort at not judging others and accepting them as my equal (loved equally) in God’s eyes.
I agree and would call the “false illusion of Good and Evil” a temptation which I think Paul talks about in his writings in the New Testament. Discerning law (good and evil judgments) working in our lives is possible as we abide in grace and therefore we are able to overcome the temptation to judge. Overcoming is a by-product of grace. I don’t think it’s something we have to discipline ourselves to do other than be aware when it happens. I have failed throughout my life in attempting to discipline myself. It just hasn’t worked out very successfully. When I recognize that my attempts (works) are negatively affecting me and my perception of who I am in God, I give up trying to change. Amazingly this approach seems to work much better. I think this is the power of the Gospel at work inside.
If Jesus Christ/cross/death/resurrection/ascension/GRACE is true then God has no reason to “judge” mankind.
But mankind judges each other. Without policemen, the courts, etc., how would anyone live in any kind of peace? I am sure any one who comes to BG would call the police if one of their loved ones was murdered or any other serious crime. Life for us on earth is different than it will be when we are changed upon clay death and resume life with God.
I do believe our lives here is made better if we have a more loving view of each other. But the reality of life on earth is people fight, hurt and kill each other and Judgement is in order. Earthlife judgment is different than “judging someone to hell” like traditional teaching.
Because he first loved us – Sue
I would also like to point out that God never needed a sacrifice to reconcile himself to his human creation. Mankind was trying to reconcile by presenting sacrifices to him and he knew before the foundation of the world how man would think. It is mankinds need for a bridge to God called sacrifice. So God and Jesus planned something man could understand.
God has no needs – he is everything.
comments are ok
Because he first loved us – Sue
God has no needs – he is everything.(Sue)
You sure about that, if I remember correctly he needed to make us right? I think he was getting a little lonely and needed some drama in his life.
the whole concept of Jesus literally dying for sins is a bankrupt one no matter how you slice it.
Marco and Titfortat, Neither of you answered my answer to you in “How do we explain God”
Titfortat,
I don’t remember any scripture that says God “needed” to make mankind or any of creation. Maybe I missed it?
Marco,
Jesus being saviour may be bankrupt to you but it is not to me.
How would you have done things better than God?
What has either of you created lately?
If not God or Jesus, again I ask you both what do you believe and why? I stand by what I think but am willing to consider other points of view without trying to diminish another.
Because he first loved us – Su
Sue
I cant explain God, and the truth is neither can you, you do your best and for you that description is Biblical in nature. Do you honestly think that grasps even a fraction of the totality of what a creator would be? And if the creator didnt have some kind of need then why the heck would it create us? I Believe in what I see and sense. I am ok, by my intuition, I do not fear death, I am curious about it. Also I know by what I see my actions and Reactions determine the quality of my existence. Thats it, thats all.
Titfortat,
You have just explained what you think God is. Intuition – we all have it – I wonder where that came from? Death – we will all experience it but may not remember the experience, so curiosity may not be satisfied. Our actions and reactions are up for grabs by those of others – and yes some of my descriptions are biblical and some are not – and yes I do my best and so do you – so I guess that leaves both of us in the hands of fate and or God.
I believe a creator is ALL – the I AM THAT I AM. You have quoted the bible as well on posts before this one.
We all attempt to understand God and explain what we learn, think and feel. You just try to be superior to other humans and the truth is you are no different.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue
Do you think Jesus is God? Do you think that the Bible is a direct revelation from God? Do you think we are all Sinners in need of Redemption?
Some great thoughts have been expressed on this thread. The topic of the Kingdom is so relevant to us all because we are living in the generation where it is being revealed to us, WITHIN us. Our spiritual eyes are opening as opposed to our carnal mind’s eyes as seen in the analogy of Adam and Eve. As we dig deeper within and try to express thoughts that come from our hearts, more of the King will be seen and more of his realm will become available to us.
.
Mary asks “….I think He opened the Tree of Life to all mankind at the Cross and we have access to it now. Is it possible that the knowledge of good and evil is the source of judgmental thinking? Determining what is right and what is wrong? Which in turn is why we demand fairness? ” and then says “When I gave up my right to determine right and wrong, an amazing transformation began to happen inside me.”
.
Here we have a beautiful example of ‘metanoia’. Metanoia has been translated as ‘repent’ in our bibles, but it has nothing to do with sorrow over wrong-doing. It just means re-think. Mary turned from her carnal mode of thinking to her heart, and as she has testified, a transformation occurred. The tree of life has always been available but we constantly choose to think from that judgmental centre. We have a bias that way because we look to mankind (our parents, teachers, people wise in the ways of the world) for the answers, for the way to live. But we are finding that this is no life, it’s a sham, it’s just NOT REAL. As many are now saying – ‘there must be something more!’ This carnal life is actually hell, and we’ve made it so through our imaginative minds and our psyche. When we choose to live from the tree of knowledge we become gods of our own making, false gods. And as such we worship ourselves – just look how we worship our ’stars’ (in sport, in music, in film, our heroes). This world-life is so un-real! The REAL life is within us, that is where we find our true identity.
.
What happened at the cross was not a sacrifice for sin as Sue points out. What happened as an analogy for us to understand is that our humanity – our bias to think from that flesh-mind was put to death (the consequence of eating the wrong fruit). At that very moment when Jesus yielded his spirit, BEHOLD (open your spiritual eyes and see), the veil in the temple to the Holy of Holies was torn from the top to the bottom and the way was open for us to enter the realm of the Kingdom. What was the veil? (Another picture to help us understand spiritual truth) It was a curtain that separated us from Father. It was a blind-fold over our spiritual eyes. While the blindfold is present we cannot SEE the Kingdom. But if we choose to eat from the OTHER tree, we will have abundant LIFE. The choice is ours. Those stories are not a history, they are pictures helping us to remove the blind-fold.
Titfortat,
Yes, Jesus is God because Jesus is the WORD of God. I think ALL is inspired of God, even what you say. We are sinners in 2 ways, 1)mankind has both the capacity to love and the capacity to destroy 2) mankind needs to realize he is created in Gods image but we continue to try to live in both realms – the physical and spiritual. When our clay body is shed we enter only the spiritual and will have no need of discernment.
What say you?
My husband says I am always right! lol
Because he first loved – Sue
p.s. did you ever read my answer to you in “how can we explaine God”
Audrey, Glad you are back and hopefully feeling better. Did you log on to Devine Nobodies?
The tree of life is an interesting subject. God said he did not want mankind to live forever after eating of the tree of Knowledge of G&E so he put man out of the garden and put guards in place so mankind could not access it. That physical garden and that tree are not on earth today, so that tells me this story is meant for mental exercise. Gods WORD became flesh to help us understand our being made in Gods image. We live life more abundantly by realizing God loves us and someday we will only experience HIM. Some people have and need the bible to do this and some find out thru nature and their hearts and thoughts. I know this because the bible has not been around for most of the time humans have been on earth.
Just my thoughts – anyone else?
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue, not sure what the question was you asked?
but I can reply to this-
“Marco,
Jesus being saviour may be bankrupt to you but it is not to me.
How would you have done things better than God?
What has either of you created lately?
If not God or Jesus, again I ask you both what do you believe and why? I stand by what I think but am willing to consider other points of view without trying to diminish another.”
———————————————————————–
I didn’t say Jesus wasn’t a saviour, only that his death as a means to “appease the anger and wrath of the man up stairs” concept is bankrupt, God needing blood sacrifice does not stand in this day and age like it once did in biblical times. Infact the thought is quite replusive, very tribal and psychotic. You just have to think about it for a bit.
There is no God doing things there is God that IS. We, as humans, have the privledge to tap into this realm…
I would have not done things better because there is not a one to do better than, we did not get here that way. This earth is billions of years old, not 6000 years young. Creative power that IS generated life and that life evolved, to the point where we as humanity become aware of this Sustaining, Everlasting Power and even the awareness must evolve, hence biblical perceptions, enlightenment perceptions, 2008 perceptions.
Jesus is a symbol of salvation because he was one to have tapped into this Power(the Father) so intimately he referred to this Life as Abba, Daddy. One who loved so wastefully, fully and completely, to the point of death, that is what the cross means to me.
That is how I want to know/express God, just without the baggage of doctrines and the bankrupcy of theism.
In Christ,
Marco
Jesus was a guy who talked different than most of the people of his generation and some other guys decided to write about him, nothing more, nothing less. All we can do about him is speculate on what other people said about him, nothing more, nothing less. Truth is, all God talk is speculation, nothing more, nothing less.
In a way I agree with you Tat, especially in our use of words/language in trying to communicate God, or at least our perception of him – did you catch that? Of him? How in the heck did God become a him? Man gave him that title. With the projection of themselves, with the tribal thinking in hand that men are superior to women and they are subject to us, property. So the thinking goes, it is an even bigger man in the sky that must be in control and that we are subject to. That is biblical language, Him inspired this way of thinking, no?
When we see that house of cards fall, so does the rest of the deck with it. The key is to not throw the baby out with the bath water, this baby is Jesus. The need is not to take literally that which was written about him, the need is to understand/grasp what was it about him that caused them to write about him in such lavish manner in the first place? In this I sense we get to the Jesus that is beyond all the religion that surrounds him,
In Christ,
Marco
Titfortat and Marco,
It is good to be able to talk together without having to come to an agreement – agree to disagree to agree – humans think differently for zillions of different reasons. I find much truth in the things you both say. Truth for one may be different for another simply because ones circumstances. I believe we need all knowledge from all times so all people have a place for their thinking. Some people need more structured thinking and others like you two are ok outside of that structure. Doesn’t make you better or smarter, just different. I think whatever a person embraces is ok as long as they don’t hurt others over it – live and let live.
I believe Jesus (clay body Jesus) brought Gods(male female ALL I AM THAT I AM GOD) WORD. A way of understanding to teach live and let live. Jesus addressed the man – woman subject you brought up, Marco. There is neither jew or gentile male or female etc. When God created he said let US create man(meaning people) in OUR image so there must have been more than one diety(male and female – together or separate). All humans struggle with whether there is a higher power or not – where does that come from? No matter what side one takes, the questions are still asked and a position taken – but man still struggles to get there.There are so many truths in the bible as well as things that make no sense.
Truth – If a group of same sex people went shopping for clothes they would all sift thru what was available to find the right size, color, style that they each liked. All would be different. Same goes for food, hobbies and who we live with and bestow our human love onto. So why should thinking and what we believe be any other way?
Another thing is each individual also changes from time to time and does not always think the same thing is true all the time. We change our minds. One day I may embrace a thought and the next not so much. So truth is very
relative to each person and their circumstances. Because he first loved us – Sue
Marco,
Without some theism and some doctrines you could not have come to your conclusion (doctrine) of what you want to believe. None of of are alone in thinking as all thought is built upon the thoughts of others both dead and alive.
Because he first loved us – Sue
The original ? for this post was “why can’t we allow God to be that Generous? Why can’t we believe GRACE CAN BE THAT BOLD?”
Maybe the answer is because MANKIND SEES GOD THRU WHAT MAnKIND IS DOING, which for the most part is unloving, greedy, sex and money oriented etc.
Just a thought
Because he first loved us – Sue
Marco,
You said, “There is no God doing things there is God that IS.”
I also believe God IS. He did set his creation in motion.(the life cycle of all things that live) We don’t know if there is something HE does to keep it going. I like to believe that the SPRING of all life is God again creating to let us know he is around!
Good thoughts Sue. I think the grace of God is 77 x 7 times bolder than anyone could even possibly perceive.
Recently we here at BG discussed the literal/non-literal interpretations of scripture, I get a weekly news letter titles Bishop Spong Q & A, this weeks message seems to fit with this discussion so I’ll post it here, good stuff-
Jeannie from Chaska, Minnesota, writes:
How do we really know what Jesus said? They get so much wrong. Is it not a house of cards?
Dear Jeannie,
It is not easy to determine what Jesus actually said or did, but I believe it is more substantial than a house of cards. Probably the reason traditional Catholics and evangelical Protestant fundamentalists try to literalize the Bible is that they recognize how fragile their grasp on truth really is and, unable to be secure in that fragility, they make incredible claims for the literal words of scripture or for the teaching authority of the church. Literalism in any form is little more than pious hysteria.
The problems are that we have nothing in writing from the time Jesus lived. The earliest material in the New Testament would be Paul’s Epistles, written 20-34 years after the crucifixion and by a man who did not know the human Jesus. Paul’s conversion is dated some one to six years after the crucifixion. From Paul we learn that Jesus was crucified, that he introduced the Lord’s Supper and that he was perceived as alive in some way following the crucifixion and little more.
The gospels are written between 70 at the earliest (Mark) and 100 at the latest (John). Yet all four gospels reveal the impact of this Jesus on a variety of people. The Fellows of the Jesus Seminar spent more than a decade going over everything that the four gospels record Jesus as ever having said. When they completed this study, they determined that no more than 16% of the sayings of Jesus are authentic to the man Jesus which, of course, means that some 84% of the sayings attributed to Jesus are not historically accurate. The Seminar did not find a single word attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel (John) to be authentic. The Jesus of John’s gospel speaks to the concerns of the Christian Church near the end of the first century, not the literal words of a man of history.
I think I can demonstrate that all four of the gospel writers knew they were not writing either history or biography. Each was interpreting Jesus in the context of their relationship with the Synagogue and their time in history, most especially following the Jewish-Roman War when in 70 CE the city of Jerusalem was leveled by the Roman invaders.
If we looked at the gospels as portraits of Jesus painted by the second or even third generation of Christians and not as photographs or tape recordings capturing his exact deeds and words, I think we would be closer to the truth.
I believe the gospels give us insight into the impact of a man of history and they open the doors for an exploration into the mystery and wonders of God. That is why I treasure them.
– John Shelby Spong
Marco,
I love reading Spong. Thanks. Have you read Jesus for the Non-Religious by Spong? My first active religious heresy was reading a book by Karen Armstrong about how God was created. I can’t remember the title. I did not drop dead!! Anyway I have been in love with reading and learning and enjoying other peoples opinions ever since.
Did you log onto the native american post? beautiful and interesting.
ALL:
From WHUT tv a fun website is – http://www.closertotruth.com
Because he first loved us – Sue
Marco,
How can I receive the Spong newsletter? Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliff,
I remember these very verses used in the traditional church I grew up in to mean if someone confessed Jesus on their deathbed then they were ok. Never mind they deliberately lived the life of a scoundrel. GRACE for ALL seems a better idea since the above leaves out most of mankind who have ever lived both good and bad. Did you ever hear these verses being used this way? Because he first loved us – Sue
Here is the link, Sue.
http://www.johnshelbyspong.com/
Looks like the “community” portion of his website (with email updates) is a fee (not “free”) service that costs $10 per 3 months. Correct me if I’m wrong.
Thanks Bruce. Sue
Sue, how was Spong’s book Jesus for the Non-religous? lol I know I’m in trouble asking about Spong’s work but I’ve gained a strong curiousity to learn other viewpoints. I want my security to be based on something more solid than just my personal beliefs. Another question, how was God “created”?
Kiara,
I have about 3 books going at a time and I’m 2/3 thru Jesus for the Non-Religious. It is about how the NT is not scripture but Jesus & people of his time refering to Hebrew scripture and how later writers used the Hebrew scripture prophesy to wrap around Jesus. Spong is a retired Episcapal Bishop and still believes but in a new way, which I will find out soon. It is easy to read and understand and I find very informative.
I read Karen Armstrongs book “History of God” 20 years ago (a hard read for me at that time) – 4,000 year quest of Judaism,Christianity, and Islam and how these religions shaped the world.(mind of man creating God) She is an ex-nun and her writings are very well documented history lessons. Some may lose their faith in God reading her work but it only made me more curious. I will read this book again as I’m sure I will get more out of it now and maybe a different take on it.
She has a book out called “The gospel According Woman” about the roles women have been forced to accept because of religion.(virgin,martyr,wife,mother,witch etc,) I have not read that yet but is on my list to get next.
I think we should be able to read and consider anything we want without it being a destructive influence. One does not have to believe what one reads. But many religious people will only read what confirms what they already believe or what their respective churches tell them is ok to read. I do not feel threatened if I read something different and I find it fun.
Who are you in trouble with for wanting to learn others opinion?
Because he first loved us – Sue
I have pretty much read through this thread and as I have realized in my own reality these days, there are indeed more questions than answers. You see this is the way it has always been, and continues to be if we’re really honest. Mankind will always complicate the simple. As the saying goes curiosity killed the cat.
I too enjoy listening to all the different views and consider myself to be pretty open minded. Even as I say that I do admit there have been strong influences in my life that have left me less open I suppose. These influences have been both positive and negative.
At the end of the day, What do we really believe? I mean, come on, some of the bunny trails that we venture out on leave us more lost than enlightened.
Some things are better left alone and unchallenged, for example there is enough substance in one quote such as , Jesus said, I am the way, the Truth and the Life. Jn 14:6, to last us a life time. I know that there are many out there , and I don’t just mean here at boldgrace that would scream blue murder at that quote of scripture and start a revolution in protest. Should this taint my view of that truth, no matter what points are made , if it does then I no longer have any foundation to stand on, it’s all just sinking sand.
Let me share something with you if I can, tomorrow morning I am going to a men’s breakfast at a local church in my area. My main reason for going is that a fellow I know very well will be sharing his story with the guys. This fellow spent 30 years incarcerated at one level or another, with 18 of those years being hardtime ( prison). Most and I mean most believed he would never come out of prison let alone ever function in society. I got to know this guy early on in my days of jail ministry. To see what God has done is nothing short of miraculous. For me to be around him for even a few minutes I sense the power of God and the Spirit’s presence even to the point of tears.
To further acknowledge the power of God this fellow was a hard core drug addict for 30 years, and just celebrated one year of being clean on Dec. 4th just passed. By the way , no cravings and no withdraw. The only conclusion that I can come to is a testimony to the power and pursuit of an all loving God. This truly is the good news we call the gospel, is it not.
If any of you would like to remember this fellow in your prayers I’m sure he would appreciate it as he still faces many challenges integrating back into society. His name is Gordie, I can’t wait till tomorrow!!
Randy,
I think life is very complex and mankind is trying to make it simple. God gave us alot to research and to think about. Simple or boring is not God. (in my opinion)
I hope Gordie continues to get better. I will pray for him. Let us know how it goes after the meeting. His progress so far is very good.
I do not think this mans ordeal is the good news of the gospel though. The good news of the gospel is about Jesus and spiritual redemption for all mankind after our clay bodies are shed for all eternity. Of course if the good news of the gospel helped this mans earth life we would say that is good.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue, thanks for the comment, I guess all I was really trying to say is that Gordie’s story , even it isn’t the true definition of the Gospel, can we at least agree is good news. I knew by the way someone would challenge me on that comment but I said it that way anyway.
By the way I do believe in the redemption of all of mankind, and do embrace the gospel as you declare it and believe it.
I suppose the point I was making by sharing Gordie’s story was to remind us that when someone does experience Salvation and enters into a new life in Christ that we dare not reduce this to a trivial matter.
To see someone come to Christ should still be something we celebrate and encourage no matter what our doctrinal position is, if we can’t I think it’s rather sad.
You know what the reality is, I could take this Gordie and introduce him to many a folk in the so called church today and unless he passed their litmiss test of what they would deem a true believer to be, he would never be accepted.
I’m so glad that Gordie or any of us for that manner won’t have to stand before a panel of men one day to find our worth. Jesus Christ has shown what we’re worth and that is Good news, ( accepted in the beloved).
Have a good evening Sue, for what its worth its a real encouragement to be back sharing on this site again. A huge hello and all the best to Cliff, Marco and all the rest of you guys.
Randy,
I can hear in your words you have alot of love and work wrapped up in Gordie. Just remember even if he does not get completely well he will be ok because God still loves him. I used to feel like a failure if an outcome with other people wasn’t what I would call healing until I gave back to God control of all things. I just realized I had little or no control of anything, and whatever the earth life outcome was, is still ok because ultimately all goes back to Gods complete care. The God in us will and should always try to help others. Being a mother taught me alot!!
Randy, I am glad you came back to post here. Thankyou for sharing Gordie with us.
Because he first loved us – Sue
I remember someone saying once that harmful behaviors, whether they’re aimed at others or at ourselves, come from anger. And anger comes from insecurity. And insecurity comes from a lack of faith. And faith comes from God.
But faith can be a tricky thing. If the faith originates from us, it will always be on shaky ground. We all know deep inside that everything that comes from us can be doubted. That’s why I tell people that I have no faith of my own. I’ve tried to, because that’s what the church told me I had to do to please God. But when my faith finally crumbled, the veneers of “knowledge” that had enclosed my heart began to flake away. I had no use for them any more. I gave up on a faith delivered through religion, and wandered in the wilderness. And it was in that vulnerable state that God showed himself and helped me change my mind about him. I no longer saw him as the demanding overlord who heaped requirement and obligation on my head, and loomed over me with angry threats. That was all washed away when my slate was wiped clean of religion. But slowly, I started to see a kind, loving Creator who accepted me and gently drew me into his life. That change of mind brought me into a whole new way. And without me even realizing it, he had given me “faith” in himself. The faith that now dwells in me is not one of my own making, but truly a gift from God. I now live in the fact that relationship with God is not about my ability to love God, but just about knowing that he loves me. Period. No matter what. No matter what!
Bruce, What you have jusT said speaks so clearly what is in my heart.
Sue, Thank you so much for displaying such an open and kind heart. I love the way you are able to disagree with others and yet always maintaining such acceptance and love.
Randy, We love having your words of wisdom and for telling us about your experience with the power of God. His power is best described and witnesseed in the lives of others, not in our views or opinions.
Kiara, I love seeing your inquisitive mind and I have no doubt that your honest search for truth will take you far in this exciting spiritual journey of life.
Marco, I see so much love behind your words and even when we don’t always agree I know that we are kindred spirits.
Titfortat, You and I have come a long way and we are good for each other. This life constantly challenges each of us, as it should be, and you are full of life my friend.
Audrey, I thought I had the story of Adam & Eve all down and then you came along and showed me something new……..THANKYOU
Mary, You said: “When I gave up my right to determine right and wrong, an amazing transformation began to happen inside me. Judgmentalism lessened. I began seeing people as equal. ” WHAT A GREAT TRUTH.
Julia, Thanks for such a precious examaple of what this story is all about.
Connie, I love the follow statement in your comment: “The key, I think, is to realize we are all prodigals and all in need of grace and mercy. Then, we simply fall on our faces in awe and gratitude when we realize it’s there for us.”
Steve Martin, I also believe it’s important to hear His promises over and over again and that’s why we have this Boldgrace Site, to remind each other of a God of UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
Bruce,
Your “knowledge” of GOOD and GOD is showing! Thankyou!
I have a book called “The Lost Bible – Forgotten Scriptures Revealed” by J.R.
Porter. On page 24 is Eve’s account of the fall – she says “and at that very moment my eyes were opened and I knew I was naked of the righteousness with which I was clothed.”
God/Jesus gave us back that righteousness.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Hi Randy, where was my invite to the mens breakfast? I would have really liked to go but I didn’t know about it, mabye next time.
Good to hear from you, I only want to comment on this:
“Some things are better left alone and unchallenged, for example there is enough substance in one quote such as , Jesus said, I am the way, the Truth and the Life. Jn 14:6, to last us a life time.”
Saying some things are best left unchallenged only says to me they must be challenged, it is a red flag for sure. There is nothing religion likes more than to not be challenged with its doctrines and creeds.
Do you realize how the book of John came about?
As J.S.Spong points out (one of my above posts has the full quote)-
“…the Seminar did not find a single word attributed to Jesus in the Fourth Gospel (John) to be authentic. The Jesus of John’s gospel speaks to the concerns of the Christian Church near the end of the first century, not the literal words of a man of history.”
So yes, that quote in John must be challenged, especially when we realize it was written by the early christian church, some 70 years old. Now we have a 2000 year old christian church, should we not challenge anything they say either?
Great to hear about your friend Gordie, hope he continues to heal, again great to hear from you I hope you continue to share,
In Christ
Well I just had a moment to check in with you guys. As always I enjoy the comments by each of you here. I guess getting past having to be in agreement on all things helps, but it begs another question, what does it mean to be in one accord? Oh well a thought for another day, let me share a bit about my day if I can. As you all know Gordie had his opportunity to share his story at a men’s breakfast this am. I was thinking we would be fortunate to get 15 or 20 guys be it the time of season and all. As well down this way the lobster season is in full swing and this takes some guys away as they would have been fishing today. To my pleasant surprise 41 guys showed up so Gordie had quite an audience.
His time was to be limited to 20 minutes or so and I knew that would be a challenge to begin with. Anyway he spoke closer to 45 minutes or so and no one seemed anxious to leave. It was as I knew it would be, a powerful testimony to the power and pursuit of God. One thing that stands out very clearly in Gordie’s sharing is how many times he says , its all God, its all God. Truly God got all the glory for where Gordie is today.
There were two God moments that stood out , in one case a fellow that I hardly know at all could be seen embracing Gordie. You could tell from a distance something very neat was going on. This guy was telling Gordie that the whole time he was sharing all this guy could see and sense was the power of God, it seemed to be all over and all around Gordie. You could tell this fellow was very moved by all that he witnessed.
The other story coming out of the morning was rather neat as well. Again another guy that I do know( Howard) approached Gordie just before we left. He took Gordie aside and told him that he had considered leaving the meeting when he realized who Gordie was. He when on to tell him that during Gordie’s last crime on the street which was armed robbery, the girl that Gordie held at knife point was Howard’s niece. Howard told Gordie that he forgave him and the two of them could be seen embracing one another as the morning ended. As the saying goes, to ere is human , forgiveness is divine. Anyway Gordie and I hung out the rest of the morning, it was truly a good day, thank you -JESUS.
Marco, I wished you could have been there, next time I’ll think of you and let you know when and where. Have a great week-end all, and thanks for letting me share the events of the day with you.
In Christ, Randy
Bruce
My wife said a good one about anger.
“Anger is just unresolved sadness”
not fair my friend to leave me out of such moving and shaking, what I really enjoy about this story is that it shows us its not all about the doctrines. It takes me back to what we learned in GraceWalk with McVey, that resting in Christ, Spirit rest not knowledge/belief rest.
We understand Jesus said abide in me, he did not say abide in doctrines about me, just abide in me. I sense that is what your friend Gordie is experiencing, beautiful story about him and Howard, I worked with Howard for years back at Five Corners, to let go a a grudge like that would have been nigh impossible for him back in those days, great story.
Out running today I was thinking about the bunny trail comment you made, I started to realize we are all on bunny trails, we all are some bunny, pardon the pun, but it fits just too good with this next metaphor.
Some bunnies find a trail that seems better than a lot of the other trails, might not be perfect but they are tired of searching, this trail will do they say.
Some are on such a miserable hellish trail they and get down and out, instead of seeking out new trails they fool themselves into thinking this trail must be what they deserve for being bad bunnies, not worthy of better trails.
Some group together on a specific trail and decide this is it this is it! This is THE bunny trail above all bunny trails, so they set up camp and get all comfortable, after all they are on The One and Only…no need to travel and discover new trails anymore. They have reached the perfect trail that is so perfect it even makes themselves perfect. Oh if only the other wandering and searching bunnies could see they say to one another…
Other bunnies jump from trail to trail never taking in any of the scenery, their only goal is to get to the next trail. Can’t seem to find contentment anywhere it seems, maybe the next trail, maybe the next trail.
Some bunnies travel and find trails that that never experienced before, settle in for a time and soak in all that is, but in the back of their minds realize the time to move on will come sooner or later, because they realize, as beautiful and bountiful as the trail they are on is, there is more, much more to discover, with keen sense in knowing not all trails are created equal, but have equal opportunity…
thanks for reading,
In Christ,
Marco
Geez……..All I keep thinking is, I need to get me some Bunny.
Titfortat,
What does your Honey think of your need to get some Bunny? lol
Sue
Maybe my Honey is the Bunny I was thinking about.
Titfortat,
I hope your Honey does not see the “maybe” for the Bunny you are thinking about!! lol