Hebrews 13:4
Kiara ask me to comment on the following verse.
Heb 13:4 Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.
There is one thing that Marriage, Adulterers, & the sexually immoral all have in common and that is they are all circumstances that happen only in the physical realm here on earth. I believe the writer of Hebrews is telling his readers that there are absolute consequences to the choices we make and to choose certain lifestyles will bring just as certain judgments. Our creator has set in motion a journey here on earth that has judgments already built in. An example of this is the law of gravity. If I choose to jump off a cliff it is certain that I will fall to the ground and whether I believe in this law or not will not change the outcome.
If I choose to cheat on my wife I will face certain consequences that are just as binding as the law of gravity. The thing we must always remember is that whatever choices we make God will never leave us or forsake us, but He will allow us to make choices that are painful here on earth.
Heb 13:5-6 Keep your lives free from the love of money and be content with what you have, because God has said, "Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you." So we say with confidence, "The Lord is my helper; I will not be afraid. What can man do to me?"
The writer is telling us we can trust God and that we don’t need to fill the void we sometimes feel inside with unwholesome pleasures that have no power to satisfy our deepest longings. When we choose to trust the divine that is within us all we will begin to see that same divinity in all that God has created.
Heb 12:14 Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.
The writer is also telling us that the choices we make have a direct impact on our ability to see God. Many go through this life living on the surface (physical) and only sowing to the flesh, but Jesus came to show us something much more fullfilling and permanent (spirtual). Paul says this best in the following verse:
Many times we at BG are reported as teaching that because of GRACE we can just choose to live here on earth anyway we want to without any consequences, but nothing could be further from the truth. Yes, you can live anyway you want to and God’s love for you will never change, but the choices you make here on earth will effect your state of mind and your level of peace you feel as you journey along. I also believe that God will even take the poor choices we make and turn them into a glorious final outcome. WE ARE HERE TO LEARN and God has set in motion the perfect experience in this earthly realm that will accomplish His perfect WILL.
PS. This will be my last post for 2008 and I want to thank everyone who has been involved with Bold Grace for all the great sharing and learning that has happened in this past year. My New Year’s resolution is to always SEE GOD and to accomplish this I know that every choice I make will have an impact.
See Ya in 2009, God willing.
Cliff
Good post.
I think you are right on the point.
Yes, we ought remain faithful and true.
But if we fail, we will be forgiven by Christ. We will still suffer the consequences in this life for our sin, however.
Happy New Year to you, and to all on this blog!
Hi all,
Happy new year to everyone.
My take (if you don’t mind):
Hbr 13:1 Let brotherly love continue.
Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
Hbr 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; [and] them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.
Hbr 13:4 Marriage [is] honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.
Hbr 13:5 [Let your] conversation [be] without covetousness; [and be] content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Hbr 13:6 So that we may boldly say, The Lord [is] my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me.
Hbr 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of [their] conversation.
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Hbr 13:9 Be not carried about with divers and strange doctrines. For [it is] a good thing that the heart be established with grace; not with meats, which have not profited them that have been occupied therein.
Hbr 13:10 We have an altar, whereof they have no right to eat which serve the tabernacle.
Hbr 13:11 For the bodies of those beasts, whose blood is brought into the sanctuary by the high priest for sin, are burned without the camp.
Hbr 13:12 Wherefore Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people with his own blood, suffered without the gate.
Hbr 13:13 Let us go forth therefore unto him without the camp, bearing his reproach.
Hbr 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.
Hebrews is about the changeover of the covenants (for lack of a better term). He is asking these believers who are about to see the ending of the Jewish system of old covenant practise, disappear for all practical purposes so that they should endure until there is no “remaining city”.
Some are tempted to revert back to confidence “in the flesh”ly system of old covenant observance. Tempted in readopting a view that the old covenant practises would always remain. But they did not. The holy city was about to be destroyed and temple was about to be torn down with not one stone left upon another. Animal sacrifices were about to cease.
Confidence in this passing system was equal to sin consciousness (as opposed to the renewing of the mind).
So they are given warnings about this very thing.
Heb. 13:9 is very clear on this point IMO. The “strange doctrines” were strange to the gospel.
The alter in verse 10 is set opposite in context to the old system. It is the true alter.
Back to the beginning of the chapter then:
Let brotherly love continue was in view to the fact that they really needed to stick together in this very difficult time which was about to get worse and so really pull together and encourage and love each other.
Example:
Hbr 12:3 For consider him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds.
Hbr 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin. {IE the old system which was embedded in sin consciousness. See also 1 Pet. 4:9-12}
So verse 1-3 is placed in this first century setting when the old system was about to be visibly dissolved.
In this sense the “marriage” that being the Marriage “body” with Christ (see previous verse) is what is in direct question here.
Hence “hold fast firm until the end”.
The “Judgement” in question was that of the foretold end of the old system and therefore the “conscience” of those who believed in it.
The old system could not bring the conscience to perfection. They were in conscience then adulterers and fornicators. See Ezekiel 16 for example of how these words are used.
This does not mean that they were not forgiven by God through Christ. But it does mean that the old could not as old inherit the new. The conscience attached to the old practises was touched by and through the ending of the old system.
Just my own opinion of course.
Blessings Barry
Adultery is one thing – I would raise an even deeper question – what about ‘murder’? Does it merely blind one from knowing God or do you think there is more to that event? I tend to think there is more involved there – and even with adultery to some level…but murder – one person doesn’t come back to forgive you.
What if “forgiveness” is not an option, but a requirement?
Once passage into the “other realm” takes place, what purpose would it serve to not forgive?
I tend to think we are missing the entire point of this earthly life. I think that when we are drawn into the realm of God, we will look back on this time and think how silly we were, worrying about the outcome, and stressing over bringing the flesh in line. Because, in the end, the flesh will receive its reward… it will return to the dust from which it came.
I think ‘murder’ would be treated the same (by God).
You pay the price here on earth, but for those with faith in Christ Jesus, their sin will be forgiven.
I agree Bruce in that the outcome is not determined by our choices, but our state of mind (salvation) is, and Jesus came not only to show us the Father’s uncondtional love but to reveal to us the state of mind we can enjoy by believing that important fact.
Steve Martin, ?
If one is murdered (choice out of his hands and paid the price of anothers
sin) who does not yet have faith in Jesus, by what you said that person’s
sins will not be forgiven. Now the murderer while in jail comes to have
faith in Jesus so his sins will be forgiven. How unfair that sounds!! Maybe
I misunderstood your point? All mankind are sinners (sin passed from
Adam to all mankind – not a personal sin) and will lose our mortal life in
the form it now exists. The faith of Jesus (who was the only person who
ever lived to be perfect in discernment) and not mans faith that seems to
be fair.
We love because he first loved us – Sue
Thanks for this post Cliff! I really appreciate you taking time to answer questions. Have a Happy New Year!
Sue,
Yes, all are forgiven…but not all believe(have faith)
Faith is a gift of God.
Jesus said, “I choose you. you do not choose me.”
God certainly is not fair…He is just.
All deserve hell, but He came and saved some. The scriptures refer to a “faithful remnant”.
I pray that He will have mercy on all, but the bible says that many will be lost.
Christ Jesus loves sinners! I qualify, that’s for sure.
Thanks Sue!
Steve,
There is NO LOGIC or LOVE or GRACE or MERCY or JUSTNESS in what you say. Aside from that, are you saying you HOPE you are redeemed, You KNOW you are redeemed or you don’t know for sure? Also, you sidestepped my senario. May I ask, do you belong to a church? If so, which one?
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue,
God’s ways are not our ways. Man’s logic has nothing to do with God’s justice.
I didn’t think I sidestepped your scenario. What I tried to convey is that going to Heaven depends completely on God…not us. That is true for the murderer and the murdered.
God is the one who decides…we don’t have a say in the matter. He desires that ALL would come unto Him but it doesn’t work that way. Many reject Him. This does not sound logical to us…but it is biblical.
This is Lutheran theology, but beyond that it is biblical.
I am a Lutheran because of the message of hope in Christ. I know that I am going to Heaven because of the promise that God made to me in my baptism and His work for me on the cross. But I do not want to presume anything. I have a SURE hope, but I do not want to make it into some kind of legal transaction where God HAS TO do anything. Our theology preserves the freedom of God to be God and save whom He’ll save. (Romans)
This sounds a bit foreign to someone not schooled in Lutheranism, but I assure you, there is nothing in it at all that isn’t taken right from Holy Scripture.
In short, we believe that alll were forgiven on the cross, but that forgiveness has to accessed by faith. God gives faith as a gift and there are some who reject Him and will not be saved. Fair? Maybe not. Just? We have to say it is justice because God knows the hearts of every man and woman and He will render perfect justice.
One last note…we do not know who the saved and unsaved are. The wheat and tares grow together (in the church) and it is left for God to separate them as He will also separate the sheep (His children) from the goats (the lost).
Thanks Sue!
Hey Steve
A very happy new year to you bro!
Just a couple of views Steve, how you don’t mind.
I’m basically with Sue on this one.
Just my opinion but I think that the Western Evangelical Culture has had a lot of strange views for a long time now.
Take “hell” for example.
It’s not even in the Bible.
A made up make believe word.
Mistranslated either from “Hades” which had entirely different meaning, or mistranslated from the Hinnom Valley just outside of Jerusalem where the Romans in AD 70 literally burnt all the dead bodies when they burnt down and tore down the whole city of Jerusalem (except the Roman fort which today still has a standing wall and is mistaken for being a remaining temple wall).
Western Evangelical Culture has made up a whole new Religion out of the Grace and Love of God as revealed in the Christ and turned it into a horror movie. A “B” Movie at that IMHO.
God’s love is without condition.
Love does not take into account a wrong suffered. And so there is the Justice of God and we have Paul’s word on it.
Now there are consequences for behavior. There aways was and their will always be.
Just my views
Blessings,
Barry
Steve,
When I read the bible it does not agree with the way you read
it. “BIBLICAL” does not mean you and the Lutheran persausion are
correct. In fact I went to your website and your intro to your discovery
said you did not have to do anything – which contradicts what you say
here.
Because he first loved us – ALL OF US – without exception – Sue
DUCK!!!!
Peace
Geo
Steve,
Ephesians 2:8&9 says “FOR BY GRACE ARE YE SAVED THRU FAITH; AND
THAT NOT OF YOURSELVES; IT IS THE GIFT OF GOD: NOT OF WORKS,
LEST ANY MAN SHOULD BOAST.
For by grace are ye saved thru faith (whose faith?? – the faith of Jesus)
that not of yourselves (not your faith and not my faith) IT (Grace) is the
gift of God.
Luke 19:10 says “FOR THE SON OF MAN IS COME TO SEEK -AND- TO
SAVE THAT WHICH WAS LOST”
BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US – SUE
Barry,
It is all so interesting. I also enjoy reading your take on life. Thank you.
Geo,
DUCK! GOOSE? lol
peace – Because he first loved us – Sue
I know where you’re coming from, Steve. It’s hard to imagine God’s grace being so complete that it encompasses and includes his entire creation. It’s hard for anyone to have that much trust in God, especially the God of the christian bible. I guess my problem is that I put a lot more trust in God than I do the bible. The bible has a lot of wonderful things to say, but the more I learn about the history of the book itself, the more I understand that it is also full of opinions, commentaries, and conjecture. And sadly, the “church” has made a number of changes and assumptions that make it better fit their agenda. You see, the church NEEDS to keep people in fear. Otherwise, it could not manipulate, control, and profit. But, that’s another story for another time. Yes, the Lutherans feel they have the most complete understanding of the bible, and so do the Methodists, the Presbyterians, the Catholics, the Mormons, the Adventists, and all the other 30,000 sects.
A friend of mine is fond of the phrase, “the bible is like a banjo, you can make it play any tune you want.” And the more I learn about christian belief systems, the more I agree with that idea. But, maybe the “bible battles” are necessary to bring us all to a point of exhaustion with religion, and permit us to finally look deeper into the idea of a God who is bigger than our religion. Can God’s love be so great that it circumvents all shades of “justice”? Maybe not. And in that, we continue to live in fear, with all out doubts, guilt and shame. Or maybe so. And in that we find ourselves becoming more and more free of our fears. To me, THAT is salvation… when our minds become free from the fear of God! I believe that all are redeemed to God, made righteous, and holy in his eyes. And I believe that all will come to a point of salvation (of the mind), but some sooner than others. If we can realize, and trust, the love of God, our minds will change and we will become saved from that which torments us… our fear.
But, how do we learn to trust God that much? I think the key is to find his presence deep within us. When we can awaken to the fact that he breathed his life into us, and remains with us always, we can begin to seek him inside. He was there from the beginning, and he will always be there… waiting patiently for us to recognize him. It’s not a matter of finding him. He was never lost. And if we will be quiet for a moment, we will hear him speaking to us through our spirit. As we learn to sense him from within, we will find him bubbling up through us and into everything around us. The kingdom of heaven is within… not because we say it is, or because we want it to be, or because we do something or say something to make it so… it just is. The idea that we can “make” God do something by our actions is very scary to me. If we have authority over life and death (heaven and hell), even if it’s only over our own souls, we SHOULD be afraid! To have that kind of power is to have the power of God himself.
Hi Bruce, Barry, Sue,
Good points, all.
We do not have to do anything at all (in fact we can’t) to get to Heaven. Christ Jesus has done it all.
Some will be lost. The bible states this over and over again (however you want to categorize this lostness…hell, hades, whatever)
We are saved by the faith of Christ and He does give us (those he desires to) this required faith…it is a gift.
God chooses. It says this all over the Bible as well.
Why does God choose some and not others? This is the great question that we can ask Him when we get up there. The bible does tell us that God uses baptism to give the gift of faith (Acts 2). And Jesus commands us to go into the world “…baptising and teaching about Himself…”
I do believe that people can make the bible say anything they want. That is why doing theology is important. Good theology..centered on the work of Christ and not centered on what we do.
I do believe the bible to be the infallible Word of God. It may contain a few errors and people can woodenly turn it into a law book…but it isn’t. It is a love and rescue story for sinners that would be doomed if it were not for God’s action…for us.
Someday we’ll get up there and all of this will make perfect sense to us, and all our questions will be resolved. Nobody down here gets it exactly right, I’m pretty sure of that. But putting Christ and His great love for sinners and His action to save them puts us on pretty solid ground, I would say.
Thanks a bunch!
Steve,
What’s different about You that Jesus would choose you and not
others???? “”You said nobody down here gets it exactly right” – but you
and your persuation? Tell me – How much can one be wrong and be OK?
What can they be wrong about and still be ok? Do you hear how arrogant
you sound? You have one foot in freedom but you are up to your hip in
self righteouness. You present your view, then when someone answers
you, you ignore what they say.
You and all others are on solid ground because Jesus will not lose
anyone. He died once for ALL. Your “About Steve Martin” on your
website is a lie????? Perhaps you should change it to reflect your views
of exception.
FREEDOM IN CHRIST – THANK YOU GOD. Because he first loved us – Sue
Steve,
The word “choose” is used 1 time in the New Testament and the
word “chose” is used 5 times and none of them with the reference you
place on them. Because he first loved us – Sue
Steve,
You said the scriptures refer to a “Faithful remnant”. Those 2 words together are not found in the bible according to Find a verse. com.
Revelation 19:21 says “And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.”
I don’t want to be a part of a remnant. I will be a part of ALL, who God loves and sent his SON to redeem.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue,
John 15:16 Jesus says, “You did not choose me, But I chose you…”
In John 6:44 Jesus says, “No one can come to me unless the Fther who sent me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”(the word ‘draw’ is acurrately translated to ‘compel’)
In John 1:13, John tells us that we are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
In Romans 3:11, Paul tells us that no one seeks for God.
In Matthew 7:21 Jesus says, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but whe who does the will of my Father is in heaven.” A little later Jesus says to “many” “Depart from me, I never knew you…”
There are other allusions to the remnant. (which I believe refers to the faithful). Jesus tells us in the parable of the ungrateful lepers that only one returned to say “thank you.” That’s 1 out of 10.
When I read the scriptures I find it very hard to come to nay conclusion other than some will be lost.
I pray that no one would have to be separated from God. But apparently, that is the way it will be (if we believe what jesus tells us).
I will be a part of whomever God wants me to be a part of.
Thanks Sue…gotta run!
– Steve
Steve,
Actually John 15:16 does not say choose or chose but chosen which I did not think to look up because you said the words were choose and chose. The other bible verses you have not quoted correctly either so I will study each one within its context and get back to you, that is if you are interested in how someone else may understand scripture. If you take all verses literally than you will need to eat the actual body of Christ and drink his actual blood, found in John 6:53. I know about the last supper so you don’t need to bring that up.
Please do not consider my observations as a way to argue. I am interested in your viewpoint, and other viewpoints here at BG. I think God is a God of Love. I don’t think he would dispose of his created beings who are a part of himself (his shadow – his image). Futher study without judgement may bring new understanding.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue,
I’m always up for a friendly discussion. That’s how I learn things.
My bible (Revised Standard Version) reads as follows: John 15:16 “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide; so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”
I can’t say for sure I would know what God would do in any particular instance…I can only know about God what the bible tells me.
I would love it if everyone could go to Heaven!
Thanks Sue!
Hey Steve
Hope no one minds me sticking my 2 cents worth in
I understand your position Steve.
John 15:16 Jesus says, “You did not choose me, But I chose you…”
This verse is not speaking of “eternal” or “postmortem” security. It is addressing the being chosen for “priest hood”.
The “lost” you were previously describing is IMHO a grave misunderstanding of the western evangelical culture in general. “Lost” as pertains to “eternal security” or “postmortem” life you will not find in scripture.
Priesthood was a chosen placement which was to bring blessing Universally. A Priest NEVER served for themselves exclusively but always ON BEHALF of others.
What the old covenant adherents of the time (the time between the cross and the destruction of Jerusalem) “missed out on” was the blessings of service to others. The “others” were “lost” not in eternal security but “lost” from their inheritance as Priests to bless Universally.
This is why the bible sounds through the eyes of western evangelical culture to be so very down right hateful. That being when People mistake eternal security when the permanent effect of priesthood is in question.
Because we fail to see what was “lost” and what it meant to be “lost” at the time. That being that the old cannot itself inherit the new. That being that the old creature could not as such inherit the new creation as an old creature.
What was lost was the chance to bless the whole world by accepting in principle what was the “faith of Christ Jesus” which was then obedience to the “good news”. What was “lost” was not the eternal or postmortem relationship but the historical or eternal position of being a permanent blessing.
This has nothing to do with the hell we were taught to believe in. God is the Savior of all men especially those that believe. Those that believed functioned as “priests” or a holy priesthood.
Show me a priest that was a priest to themselves in the Bible and I will eat my hat. You won’t find one because one does not exist. Priests where Priests to bless others, ALWAYS!
Paul understood this prinicle on a personal basis:
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and FILL UP that which is BEHIND of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Paul is not professing that the Sacrifice of Christ was insufficient without him. He is saying that God had purposes to give the blessing of the gift of priesthood from following the High Priest in the “faith of Christ Jesus”.
This is a vast subject and it takes some time to rap one’s brains around it as we have been so very mislead for so very long about the whole matter.
Israel’s position was in principle one of being a blessing to the world. (As a light to the world for example) Israel was historically not a priesthood for itself but rather was one outwardly. That was to be its inheritance. This was always God’s intent from the beginning. So (this leads us to the point of) the Priesthood of the early Church when the Apostles still lived (one of the qualifications being that you had seen the resurrected Christ) functioned as a “priesthood”.
Now to disprove this view IMHO one must first prove that a priest (a priest of the Bible) could function totally and completely self centered.
This IMHO cannot be done. For such is totally contrary to the meaning of “priest” in the scriptures.
That being said, what western evangelical culture has attempted to do is completely bypass the meaning of “priest” and “priesthood” as the bible defines it. And thus have the priesthood as being a priest to themselves only with everyone one else that is not a priest eternally lost in regards to relationship with their creator. Which begs the question, how then could then function as “priests”? A question that modern evangelical culture cannot answer IMHO! Biblical speaking this is a real problem for the typical evangelical view of the Christianity.
So what his boils down to then is how could the followers of Christ be called and function as a priesthood if such a priesthood benefited themselves exclusively. Such makes no biblical sense at all IMO. And such clearly shows IMHO that western evangelical teachings have missed the greater points of God’s sovereignty over all his creation.
What much of Christian culture has turn into is a movement that professes that God is sovereign over a plan from the very beginning to condemn the vast majority of his sentient creation to unending torment.
What is surprising to me is how this seems to make sense to anyone
Just my view of course.
Blessings, Barry
Barry,
Your 2 cents worth is a goldmine – never devalue yourself. Thank you.
I have learned alot today.
Steve,
John 15:16 in KJV reads – Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you
and ordained you – etc. I have found a great Hebrew website which is so
helpful to understand original words and much more.
Ancient Hebrew Research Center
Because he first loved us – Sue
Bruce,
I want to thank you for your posts as they help me alot. You guys here at BG and many posters have been a real blessing to me. Keep up the great work of exposing Gods love thru his Son Jesus.
because he first loved us – Sue
Sue,
The KJV seems to be saying the same thing as my RSV.
Barry,
The verses I quoted about God choosing us didn’t mention priesthood by name (or did they?).
What do make of those verses and quotes by Jesus about the last judgement and people being separated?
I do realize that they do not line up with our generous reason, but then why should God fit into a mold about how we think He should be?
I think it’s good to remember that God is not sentimental…He is just.
In the O.T. He ordered the Jews to wipe out whole groups of people, men women and children. I think He’s a tough God to nail down.
Thanks!
Steve, if “God is just”, will you get what you justly deserve?
“Steve, if “God is just”, will you get what you justly deserve?”
Bruce,
When through faith, God is gracious and merciful, we must say that God’s justice is done. What He says goes. And since He is perfect and righteous and just, we must say that His decision to give some faith and some not…is just. Not by our standards, but by His.
What we know about God would probably fit into a thimble compared to what we don’t know about God.
But what He wants us to know about Him, He has gathered into scripture for us.
Some things are just not for us to know (about God).
Hey Steve,
I do appreciate your openness Steve and also your gracious tone. Much of the internet is so lacking in this department. It’s grace to have this conversation with you even if we come away in somewhat of a disagreement.
Quote:
Barry,
The verses I quoted about God choosing us didn’t mention priesthood by name (or did they?).
End Quote
Well let’s compare on the basis of consistency:
Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an HOLY PRIESTHOOD, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
1Pe 2:6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
1Pe 2:7 Unto you therefore which believe [he is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
1Pe 2:8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.
1Pe 2:9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; THAT YE SHOULD SHEW FORTH THE PRAISES OF HIM WHO HATH CALLED YOU of darkness into his marvellous light:
Now the assumption is that this “stumbling” was eternal as pertains to relationship.
This is the flaw. It was permanent as pertains to being a permanent blessing from the position of priesthood.
Priests were not self blessings but were outward blessings.
If the only ones being blessed (Ultimately) were the Priests themselves then why call them priests? To whom are they a “self sacrifice” (Rom. 12:1) ???????
Themselves only???
No, the principle is being saved to serve. Not saved as elite ones.
Christ is the High Priest of their confession and they are “followers” of Christ and so take up their cross and are “self sacrifice” in a “first-fruits” likeness with Christ. Notice Paul’s point that I bought up as filling up what was “lacking” as Paul expresses his “first-fruits” function. This was a self sacrifice priestly function.
The “self” they they were to deny to take up this position of servantship was the “self” of the old covenant identity. For they could not serve from this position. The “self” of the child of Abraham through ethnicity was to be replace as with servantship in the focus of God’s possibility. And so they took up their cross and followed him. The became followers of the High Priest but as Priests themselves. THUS TO SERVE AS CHRIST SERVED!
Now then the very obvious problem of Priestly function. The priest never was a priest for themselves but rather outwardly. If only the priests are saved in so far as eternal relationship then why call them priests????
No this misses the whole point!
An example of one of the verses you gave:
Quote:
In John 1:13, John tells us that we are born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.”
End quote
Indeed, but this address not postmortem relationship but priestly status. They were at this time being saved from the old covenant mentality not saved from from going to a make believe place called hell which is not in the bible. Which is made up silliness IMHO.
They were being saved TO SERVE so that all could be saved in relationship.
Otherwise we deny the very meaning of them taking up the cross as followers of one who was supreme sacrifice for others.
The elect is not the elite!! Such is human thinking and human arrogance IMO. First century Christians were elect to serve the greater whole.
The “inheritance” of being a blessing to the whole could not be acquired through law obedience!!
All would however be benefactors. For Christ died for all!
That in my view was the point.
Now look and see how the above verse fits into what John the baptist was preaching:
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God {sons as a matter of characteristic, see Matt 5:44-45 hence they functioned in the Characteristic of God loving His enemies thus held the position of being a permanent blessing outwardly}, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, NOT OF BLOOD, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mat 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Mat 3:8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
Mat 3:9 AND THINK NOT TO SAY WITHIN YOURSELVES, WE HAVE ABRAHAM TO [OUR] FATHER: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire:
Mat 3:12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Such did not dissolve their permanent relationship but dissolved their position of fruit bearers!
As benefactors none the less and the old covenant identity was taken from them. As old covenant creatures they perished. For the old covenant passed away visibly in the destruction of the temple.
The temple was the old covenant ego of man which could not house God or bring God close to man through human potential.
It was their position to serve others which was taken from them permanently as pertains to the transition time from old to new as the old was about to visibly perish (Heb. 8:13)!
This tree was cut down and thrown into the fire. For humanity could not be blessed through the law (the tree of the knowledge of good and evil as pertains to making love conditional wherein it is then not really love).
Notice in the above the “meaning” of repentance! It was a move from believing in human potential (“think not within yourselves”) to God’s possibility (“from these stones to raise up”).
For them in this time a move from being a child of Abraham through human potential to being a Child of Abraham through God’s power. (Compare John 1:13 with John 8:39)
They would not be permanently blessed in being servants to others because they could not do so from the position of an independent human potential through the law (as a child of Abraham on this basis).
Eze 16:60 Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth, and I will establish unto thee an everlasting covenant.
Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
God would be pacified for all that they had done but they would lose their position of being a permanent blessing outwardly. Thus they would never open their mouth again as pertains to be a blessing and a light to the world.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
Rev 18:24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth. {IE first century Jerusalem where the Lord was Crusified Rev. 11:8, that being the Old Jerusalem replaced by the New Jerusalem the mother of us all}
The very and simple basic problem with evangelical culture is that it has a Priesthood offering up sacrifices simply and exclusively for themselves. It has a group called the first-fruits sacrifice without any remaining effect except inwardly.
It has mistake some elements of salvation which meant saved to serve and assumed saved from postmortem torment.
Just a few thoughts mind you concerning a rather large topic.
Sorry to be so long and do hope that I was somewhat clear in the above.
Barry
Barry,
Wow! You really put together quite an assortment of scriptures here, and I appreciate it!
This way of looking at it (your way) is new to me.
I do believe that all that He has chosen are priests. That is something that is taught in the Lutheran Church and certainly, as you have pointed out in more than one place, is scriptural.
But what is new to me is the idea that all will go to Heaven. It seems to me that when Jesus says, depart from me (at the last judgement ) that He wasn’t referring to service as a priest, but rather to depart the kingdom of Heaven.
That some are saved and some are not does not garner (from me at least) a feeling of superiority or eliteness, but rather of thanksgiving and joy and a heartfelt desire to speak of Christ to others that they too might hear and believe and be saved.
St. Paul says that the power of God is in the gospel (Rom.1:16) and he says how can people hear if they don’t have a preacher. Jesus tells us that the gospel is meant for those who have ears to hear it.
So it seems to me that there is a definite distinction between the hearers and the non-hearers aside from priesthood. All who hear are priests and children of God and those that do not hear…do not hear…and are not of Him.
Good discussion! Thanks very much!
So I read again your post Steve and thought that I had not addressed your questions adiquitly. Again sorry to be so long!
Quote
What do make of those verses and quotes by Jesus about the last judgement and people being separated?
End quote.
Separated from what Steve? From the love of God?
Good question IMO but would rather answer spesific verses. Otherwise the posts get too long and drawn out, which is of course my own lack of ability to be more concise. But such is the way I often go LOL!
Quote:
I think it’s good to remember that God is not sentimental…He is just.
End quote.
With all do respect for your own views Steve why would you say this? I have found no evidence at all that God is not sentimental. On the contrary God is exceedingly sentimental. And the Christ revealed Him.
Would you say the Son was not sentimental?
The thinking that God is just is simply circular logic IMHO.
No disrespect is intended in that statement. Only that a supposition is formed and then a doctrine is formed around that supposition.
Meaning that “justice” is interpreted as meriting eternal separation from God. There is no scripture that implies that anyone merits eternal separation from God.
Rather what “perishes” is the self conceived identity. This is lost forever when God wants to make it lost. Hence the meaning of “destroyed in the flesh, but saved in the spirit”.
For man does not make himself in his own image.
Just a thought,
Barry
Steve,
I do not understand your last post, perhaps you could clarify for me please.
If all who hear are preists then how is it that “that there is a definite distinction between the hearers and the non-hearers aside from priesthood”
Also then, who is the preist ministering to besides themselves?
How does this make sense?
I’ll try to comment on this:
Quote:
But what is new to me is the idea that all will go to Heaven. It seems to me that when Jesus says, depart from me (at the last judgement ) that He wasn’t referring to service as a priest, but rather to depart the kingdom of Heaven.
End quote.
On the contrary Jesus taught and preached “repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand”. John the baptist preached the same thing.
Western evangelical culture interprets this to mean “repent” or you will not get to heaven. Such is not found in scripture.
The perishing that is found in scripture is never about the “spirit” but the “soul”. The “soul” of the bible is not the “soul” of western evangelical culture.
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him DENY HIMSELF, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life {SOUL} shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life {SOUL} for my sake shall find it.
How do you lose a “soul” to find it?
Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, {the world in question here is the world of the old covenant which was about to end visibly speaking in the destruction of the temple} and lose his own soul {IE the person of this identity the person of that old covenant life, not the spirit}? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
Mat 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works {his servantship, the reward being a blessing to all outwardly}.
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Blessings
Barry
Barry,
Do you think it is showing sentimentality on God’s part to let children die in cancer wards, or have whole families be wiped out by drunk drivers?
Separated from what? Separated from Him.
“There is no scripture that implies that anyone merits eternal separation from God.”
How about this one from Romans, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Sin is what merits separation from God. St. Paul also says in Galatians that ” those who desire to merit righteousness by the keeping of the law sever themselves from Christ.” (paraphrased)
In 1st Peter 3:20, 21, states (paraphrased) the baptism now saves us also….” (saves us from what?…I believe separation fron God)
What do you think about the language of spiritual warfare and of the devil prowling around like a lion seeking to devour us?
To me, all that language implies that we can be lost and that the evil one desires to destroy our faith and tear us away from God.
Thanks very much, Barry! (you have certainly got this pea brain of mine working!)
Steve,
To what, in your opinion does “ordained you” mean in John 15:16?
If God is only interested in a few or remnant as you call it (remnant of
what?) and he has already chosen them, then they are not in any danger
no matter what they do, therefore they are not LOST. There would be no
need for Jesus who died once for ALL. Jesus would not seek the LOST.
He would have died in vain, for no reason at all.
If the bible is the “INFALLIBLE WORD OF GOD” how could it contain any
errors? How would one know which part is error?
Why did you choose the Lutheran denomination over others?
BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US – SUE
Interresting interpretations of what the Bible teaches. How would you validate these interpretations with Scripture, as Barry did in one of his commments?
Sue, Bob, Barry,
Well, when I think about it, I don’t really believe that I chose to be Lutheran. In one sense I did, of course, I mean I was asked at some point I was asked if I wanted to join and I said yes. But in another sense I’d like to think (at it may very well be true) that God had put me there for His purposes.
What I love about Luther’s theology (not necessarily the Lutheran Church) is the freedom espoused. The freedom of God to be God (to do what He wills, when He wills) and the freedom that He has won for me…on the cross and in my baptism.
Not that any of this has to make sense to us, because it doesn’t, (God and His ways are not our ways) but when we read the scriptures we get a sense of the lostness of people in that they (we) constantly wander off, and are constantly being brought back to the fold…again and again and again.
The Jews were the rag tag bunch of people with no real direction and no real hope and then God called them to be His people, out of all the other more powerful and successful peoples (the first remnant out of the whole of creation). God revealed Himself to them, made them His own, saved them from slavery…but it wasn’t enough for them. So then He gave them the Law to keep them in check and to reveal to them their disobedience.
Within the called group of the Jews were those that trusted in God. The remnant out of the whole that did not trust Him. All along God had planned to send Christ to save them from their spirtual bondage. He did so, and once again, there were those that rejected Christ, and those that Christ chose to be His own (the remnant out of the whole).
Lutheran theology believes that God speaks to us in two different ways…the law…and the gospel. The law to expose and convict (to kill us off to the self) and the gospel…to forgive and to raise again to new life. There is a spiritual warfare that takes place in the life of the believer wherein the world, the flesh (our sinful self) and devil, desire to abandon or rip us away from God…but God continues to look for us,,, and brings back home…again and again.(the Good Shepherd)
We are kept in faith, the faith that He gives us to begin with, by His Word of promise which actually does something to us. The law works on us to kill us and the gospel works on us to bring us back to life.
I believe that God instituted the sacraments of Baptism and Holy Communion towards this end (keeping us in faith). Jesus commanded that we do both of these and He doesn’t command anything of us where He will not actually be there with us, loving us, forgiving us, and strengthening us in faith…even when we don’t realize it…or see it.
So, these are the things about Lutheran theology that I have come to believe and why I am a Lutheran. Plus the liturgical form of worship keeps us anchored in Christ and away from the natural propensity to turn in on the ’self’. It forces us to focus on Him and what he has done, is doing, and will yet do…for us.
In short, we believe that God calls and chooses some (Romans 9) and that He does this choosing through the hearing of His Word and in the sacraments. And that He keeps us in faith throughout the battle with His Word (the law, the gospel, and the sacraments)
We don’t make a big deal about Romans 9 (although we believe it), but rather we focus on the delivery end of the law, the gospel, and the sacraments.
I’ve gone on too long. Thanks for putting up with me!
- Steve
Steve,
Quote
“I’ve gone on too long. Thanks for putting up with me!”
Yea me too
Quote:
“Do you think it is showing sentimentality on God’s part to let children die in cancer wards, or have whole families be wiped out by drunk drivers?”
Mat 6:27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
Mat 6:28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
Mat 6:29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
Mat 6:31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
Why conclude that just because God lets “bad” things happen that He doesn’t care?
Would we have the Creator create a perfect utopia where nothing unpleasant or uncomfortable ever happened? When no one ever had anything to learn and humanity had no further growth or development to make because there was nothing more to learn because God never let an unpleasant or uncomfortable thing every happen?
I see no reason to draw the conclusion that God is not sentimental just because He has chosen a more productive long term agenda for His creation.
Eph 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,
Eph 3:21 Unto him [be] glory in the church by Christ Jesus THROUGHOUT ALL AGES, WORLD WITHOUT END. Amen.
The church in question in the above verse is not the Baptist, or Lutheran or Catholic Church.
It was those first century participants in “priesthood”. Who were blessed by being a blessing to the world forever. They were saved TO SERVE. They were saved from the impact of a ENDING religion that being the old covenant. It was their conscience that was saved. So that they were not separated from God in conscience!
Quote:
“How about this one from Romans, “All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God.” Sin is what merits separation from God.”
Yes Steve, from the aspect from which Paul is speaking. That being an independent human potential through the knowledge of good and evil.
Such is in the context. That being to fall short of the Glory of God. The old economy measured man against God through the knowledge of good and evil. In this context then of course man is a sinner and has fallen short.
The point then of Christ is the pay the price for all and then end the old economy. Which He did as a sacrifice for all.
Where the major confusion comes in is in not “seeing” that there was a time of transition of sorts before the visible ending of the old economy as seen in the destruction of the holy city and the temple made with hands. The old covenant is called “the elements of the world”. It is this “world” that ended. The world that we have today is without end. Otherwise one will have to contend with Eph. 3:21.
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath NOT YET been made manifest, WHILE THE FIRST TABERNACLE IS YET STANDING;
Hbr 9:9 which [is] a figure for the TIME PRESENT; according to which ARE OFFERED both gifts and sacrifices that CANNOT, as touching the CONSCIENCE, make the worshipper perfect,
Quote:
St. Paul also says in Galatians that ” those who desire to merit righteousness by the keeping of the law sever themselves from Christ.” (paraphrased)”
Yes, in conscience by returning to the then present elements of the world.
Gal 4:3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the ELEMENTS OF THE WORLD:
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, MADE UNDER THE LAW,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and BEGGARLY ELEMENTS, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.
The elements of the world was the old covenant economy.
What the Priests or priesthood was being saved from was the consequence of the visible ending of that economy upon the conscience.
Hence a “lost soul” in biblical terms. A lost “life”.
Notice one of your verses you posted:
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison {though Noah during the construction of the ark};
1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, EIGHT SOULS WERE SAVED by water. {ie they did not lose their lives through the flood}
1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
And so the priesthood was saved from losing their lives in the visible ending of the old economy. Rather they are blessed eternally in being a permanent blessing to all.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, THE SAME SHALL BE SAVED.
Mat 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
Mat 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Mat 24:17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
Mat 24:18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
Luk 21:19 In your patience POSSESS YE YOUR SOULS.
Luk 21:20 And when YE SHALL SEE JERUSALEM COMPASSED WITH ARMIES, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luk 21:21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
Luk 21:22 For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
Luk 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, WHOSE BLOOD PILATE HAD MINGLED WITH THEIR SACRIFICES.
Luk 13:2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
Luk 13:3 I tell you, NAY: but, except YE REPENT, ye shall all LIKEWISE perish.
Luk 13:4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
Luk 13:5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all LIKEWISE perish.
Jesus was warning them of the visible ending of the old economy. Warning them that they were about to lose their lives.
So then salvation in this particular setting was:
1) Conscience. (and so then saved to serve)
2) The visible ending of the old economy.
3) From the old economy in general as it ends and the elements of the world passed away in the ending of the old covenant. [Hebrews 8:13]
In this since He is the Savior of all men especially those that believe. In this setting Salvation is Universal but some are especially saved because they did not lose their lives in the visible ending of old economy.
Heaven is open to all.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world.
Just my view,
Barry
Steve,
Other than the Lutheran ? you again did not answer anything I asked.
Here is what I hear you saying; Thru no fault of their own most people are born HOPELESS! But out of 33,000+ Christain sects, you have by the grace of God, joined the right one!
I agree that God/Jesus is the only Authority, we disagree how that is to be understood. You think you have all Truth and have pleased God by your works that you described above.
Your mindset is steeped in a “religion” not the love and grace bestowed upon ALL by Jesus.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Steve,
If you have some time I would like your opinion on this book that can be downloaded for free.
http://www.the-end.com/Download_Free_Book.asp
Because he first loved us – Sue
As you can see from the above, there are literally thousands of explanations and interpretations that humans can come up with over the same few verses. This causes dis-unity, no matter how outwardly ‘nice’ we are to each other, and how much we try to apply love. The only way to get oneness of thought is to think from a different source through metanoia – the source that ‘raises it up for you’ to the level of Father. Until we allow the spirit to reveal it in our hearts, we will just end up climbing into each other’s heads, and THAT is adultery because we are looking to the wrong God for answers, the god of this world and not the spirit. Through metanoia you will touch the Truth and you will understand without having to go and ‘look up’ anything! It is all there written in your hearts. As Christ is raised in you, so will his words ‘be’. Allow him to be birthed in you and you will ’see’!
Sue,
I’ll check it out. I tried to explain my take on the ‘remnant’.
Infallible is not the same as inerrant.
The text might have errors , but the message is true.
The whole thing in toto is true (despite not being ‘perfect’)
‘Religion’ is what people do to ascend to the divine.
Lutheranism belives that God has done everything, so we have no use for religion…at all! We do have traditions and we do have a liturgy, but we do not HAVE TO do any of it. We do it because it keeps us anchored to the work of Christ and helps to keep us from floating hither and yon.
Thanks Sue!
Hey Audrey,
I appreciate what you are saying but I believe that the Bible is here for a reason.
The truth therein (in and of itself) is not all that complicated either.
God is love and Christ revealed the Father.
The problems arise because people form doctrines with atempt to undermine the unconditional nature of love (and God is love).
Mental adultery takes place when we try to oblige another to see what we think we see. That includes ones take on “metanoia” IMHO.
What I have presented so far is my view which seems to me to be far more consistent with the bulk of what was written. But I’m not interested in making converts. I’m just having a discussion
We know that we are not in a world that has no consequences. We know that we do not live in a world that has no problems. We know that we live in a world where unpleasant things happen.
Tragic things happen. So our tendency is to look for someone to blame. This is the problem of religion in general.
I see nothing in the bible that perpetuates continued “Church organisation (s)” beyond the first century ending of the visible old covenant elements of the world.
I see nothing in the bible that implies any permanent separation from him or his love. Things that are often interpreted to mean that are IMHO better explained through audience relevance taking into account the setting of the time when they were written.
IMHO God is love, but has not taken consequences of various sources away. None of which separates us from his love.
As far as I’m concerned, I have no need that others believe what I do.
My focus is relationship not doctrine. But I don’t mind discussing with people. But relationship is the only ultimate point IMHO. For that is the framework of love.
JMO Barry
Barry rock on my brother, I have learned much today from your posts, I especially like the simplicity of “God is love and Christ revealed the Father”, amen to that.
Audrey,
I answered your last post on “We are all Mary”.
I think you are stretching metanoia to mean all knowledge is already in our
minds or heart. If that were true no one would go to school as there
would be no need for learning.
The Hebrews thought the “heart” was the seat of the mind because they
did not at that time have much knowledge of the human anatomy. We
now know that thinking is done by our brain therefore the seat of the
mind.
Metanoia simply means to change your mind, learn what I (Jesus) am
teaching you. Humans have the power of discernment (pick and choose
belief or think differently).
Humans also have Good – ability to love – and Evil – ability to hate – the
ability to feel loved or hated which is inate but dependent and changable
to what we experience from others and what we learn in general.
Adam and Eve acquired “knowledge of good and evil” or the power and/or
the responsibility to discern therefore it is written in their mind.
Do you know the story of “Gone With the Wind” or any kind of knowledge
before you read it or hear it?
I also think logic plays a role in discernment.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Some will be lost. The bible states this over and over again
But it also says that God will, one day, reconcile ALL to himself (Colossians 1:18-20), that God is the saviour of ALL mankind (1 Timothy 4:10), that it’s God’s will that ALL will be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4), and that God always accomplishes his will.
“Hades” simply means “the grave”, or “the place of the dead”, or “the unseen” — the same as the Hebrew word “Sheol”. This is something ALL of humanity is destined for (yes, even Christians, though the lot of them do not believe it). (“Tartarus”, which appears only once in the NT, is another reference to the grave — “the deepest abyss of hades”. “Gehenna” is an actual place in Israel, located in the Valley of Hinnom (as mentioned); today, it’s a garden.) “Hell” does not exist in the Bible, never did. That was something that was added by scholars starting in the sixth century because they believed that the wicked needed to be punished for all time, equal to the just being rewarded for all time. (Blame St. Augustine and others who shared a similar view.)
There will be judgements, yes, as God is just. However, those judgements will NOT last for all of time — only for the eons. After that, God will ALWAYS welcome back the lost with open arms.
Hi Sue,
Things are a little ‘full-on’ at my home just now – we have some of the family home (3 of our 5 kids and spouses from various parts of the world for a couple of weeks) so we have 9 little kids ( g’kids – not all of them are here as we have 15 with a few more to come) and 8 adults. You will appreciate that I havn’t had much time to back-track on what you have replied to my post! I also like to keep up with Jim’s blog that I began commenting on way before discovering BG.
.
I’d like to point out to you that you’ve rather glossed over the full meaning of metanoia, so therefore the realm that opens up from your heart has not been revealed to you (not far off though!). What joy when it does – a wonderful New Year gift for you Sue that will blow your mind completely, and good job too – you are working far too hard at trying to understand. When you realise the simplicity and naturalness of true metanoia, you’ll meet the real Sue. The Sue that won’t have to preface her name by ‘because he first loved us’. That Sue, the whole (hol-y)Sue.
.
Metanoia is the key to understanding and hearing what Father has to say to us in this present age, it has been hidden until now so it is imperative we understand it fully. It is not merely changing your mind, that is rather like changing tack if you sail. In metanoia we don’t use the same unregenerate mind to simply alter a course because ultimately the end will be the same realm. We change the sail-boat. It is a matter of changing THE SOURCE of thinking which takes us out of the realm of the world into a new and higher realm that the majority of people in history have not touched. There are two that we are told of in the Bible that ‘birthed the Christ’ and there may well have been lots of others, but Abraham definitely did and his story is well worth taking a ‘fresh’ look at. Put your own name in the story of Abraham walking up the mountain with Isaac, his experience on the top, and coming back down with Christ. In metanoia we return to the created source of knowledge, before the founding of ‘the world’ or ‘the fall’. From the time Eve took the fruit, and we are all Eve, we all take the fruit and think that it opens our eyes, but we dont see that it blinds us to the original source – it is actually a counterfeit source, limited by 5 senses plus time and space. It knows nothing of the spirit personally, just heaps of useless ideas about the spirit. From those ideas grow many religions, but nothing touches the realm that Jesus was in touch with during his walk on earth. His mission on earth was to show us how we also could be in touch (ONE ) with the Father as he was. The reason being that ONLY ONE SON WAS EVER BEGOTTEN, but in HIM was every other son, and Sue – your name is there. There is no other way to reach this knowledge than the way Jesus showed. Metanoia.
‘
The other thing to remember is that the Bible is not a history book – it is an up-to-the-minute mirror of where we are at a present, just as I described with the story of Mary. Mary is you Sue, and me, and each of us, but until we metanoia, we won’t be able to see that. That is why metanoia is the key!
As Audrey, I too have been busy but I have tried to at least keep up with reading the comments and it does my heart good to see a loving exchange of thoughts. We are all at different stages of our birthing process and I always try to rememeber that when I run into my OLD self in these comments.
I must say that I have always felt a unique gift even from childhood that has nothing to do with my intellect. Yes, I love to study the bible and make sense of it, yet what Audrey says speaks much more to the gift I have then all my studies combined. I sense that I am growing closer and closer to the still small voice within and that growing has not happened because of me but rather FOR me. This is the process that I think the Father takes us all through and just maybe it takes more then one go around on this earth. Oh, I know there is no proof of such a thing but something tells me we don’t have this earthly experience just once.
One thing I know is that I want to spend this year more relaxed in this birthing process knowing that something much more beautiful is about to happen even a midtz the pain of our earthly journey.
Audrey,
You just said “but until we metanoia, we won’t be able to see that”. So, by your own standards how would you know what metanoia is like?
Audrey, I am quite happy with learning, reading and talking to other people about God, the bible etc..
You have no right to suppose what is in my mind (heart) or what is not. I do not agree with your teaching – you repeat yourself over and over and assume no one else knows anything. I do not want to be where you say you are in one paragraph and then say you aren’t there in another. I understand many things but not all things, nor do you. You don’t have to try and convert me, I have my own beliefs and I’m sure they will change as I LEARN new things. I am not on your path nor am I seeking it. However, I am happy for you that you have found a path you think is right for you, and have shared it at BG.
Most people here preface their name at the end with something, I chose
Because he first loved us – because I believe it – Sue
Hi Sue,
You may find some encouragement on Jim’s blog right now – seems there are some there who are beginning to ’see’. I do not ask you to accept what I say, but I do try to encourage you to hear for yourself from your own innermost being. Yes, I do know and experience metanoia, but I used the proverbial ‘we’ because none of us have yet reached the fullness of it. As the children of Israel moved with the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, so do we, none ahead and none behind. It’s a whole new way of being, no hierarchy, just the King and us.
Audrey,
I could not find the word “metanoia” in the bible. From the time I was a
child I was taught Romans 12:2 which says – “And be not conformed to
this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye
may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”-
Yes, I know the word metanoia per dictionary means – a fundamental
transformation of mind or character / a fundamental change in ones
belief/conversion/rebirth/change.
Do you think I have not experienced metanoia? Can I only experience it
the way you experience or express it? Except when someone agrees with
you, you ignore what they say and say again your own belief. There is
not one person who posts here or lives in this world who has not
experienced “metanoia”. Everyone comes to new ways of belief and to
express God Within. YOU are not the only one.
Per dictionary – intellect – the ABILITY to LEARN and REASON; the
CAPACITY for KNOWLEDGE and UNDERSTANDING.
mind – The human consciousness that originates in the brain and is
manisfested especially in thought perception, emotion, will, memory, and
imagination.
The SPIRIT of Christ/God dwells within mankind – so does the spirit of the
Antichrist live within mankind, and GOD tells me that thru Christ, HIS
SPIRIT will ABIDE and the other will die.
Audrey, I understand renewing of the mind (I experience it all the time) –
metanoia as you like to call it, SO please do not talk to me as if I am
ignorant and you superior.
WE LOVE BECAUSE HE FIRST LOVED US – SUE
Hey Audrey
(tongue in check)
Perhaps Sue will forgive me for sticking my nose in
Quote:
Yes, I do know and experience metanoia, but I used the proverbial ‘we’ because none of us have yet reached the fullness of it. As the children of Israel moved with the cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, so do we, none ahead and none behind. It’s a whole new way of being, no hierarchy, just the King and us.
End quote.
How do you know that no one has attained it yet?
The New testament scriptures which you appeal to imply that the faithful followers the first century Christians attained to the “perfection of the saints” in their day and time.
Now if you are speaking of “another perfection” independent of this then you would be IMHO speaking of an experiential “aftermath” that would then be somewhat independent of the soteriological framework of the time.
Which framework involved the then “about to be” visible passing away of the old covenant elements of the world (like the holy city and the temple).
So this then IMHO is the beginning of the difficulties for someone like myself to understand exactly where you are “coming from” in your approach. Which approach you appeal to scripture but then make scripture something less than the historical picture that it claims to be.
This is not intended to be a criticism of your view. I have no doubt that your view has helped you spiritually to grow and learn and develop. I just don’t think that it is the “whole” of the matter as you picture it.
We are one, Barry
Hey Marco
Quote:
I especially like the simplicity of “God is love and Christ revealed the Father”, amen to that.
End quote.
Thanks for touching base with me bro.
IMHO, we have taken the foundation of the global intent of the scriptures which is that God is love, and deconstructed that foundation through “doctrines”.
Part of that deconstruction was through the “Greek” overtaking of Christianity once the ending of the visible elements of the old covenant world was completed.
People wanted to maintain control and perpetuate the same “chruch” that had already done it’s job.
In trying to do this people created a new “end” in front of them. And those people where predominantly of Greek persuasion as opposed to a Hebrew mind set. Even the general Hebrew population of the time had been affected by Greek philosophy.
Hence the “reason” why you can’t find “hell” in the old testament but find it everywhere in the New.
Not that the scriptures are wrong but that the translators became affected.
In short this is my view of life:
We are all in this together.
Unity is not made by us, but is realized.
God is all and in all.
It’s not a matter of attaining to anything in performance as we have often though of such things as then qualifying us somehow, but rather about coming to the realization of the truth and allowing this to fill our lives.
JMO,
Barry
54 comments shows me that there are certainly different ways of understanding any Biblical reference. Each of us reads it in our own way. One thing that I feel strongly about; if we were raised in a particular denomination, our vision is colored by that experience. Mine is colored by 59 years of Baptist experience (I have been on this journey only 4 years). I have had a great deal of trouble dispensing with my experience (coloration) of God through the eyes of Baptist doctrine and dogma. It is there whether I acknowledge it or not. It rears it’s head each time I read the Bible, hear a quote from the Bible, hear an opinion on a “religious” topic. I have to admit that my vision is colored by my experience. This is the first step to seeing the “world” another way. My journey continues with the caveat that it is colored by my previous experiences. Acknowledging that I move forward.
Don R…….I agree whole heartedly. Thanks for adding your two cents.
Don says, “54 comments shows me that there are certainly different ways of understanding any Biblical reference. Each of us reads it in our own way.”
Don, that’s why organized religion has appointed ordained leaders to tell us which interpretation is correct. Of course, most of those leaders can’t agree on it either. What surprises me is that God didn’t see this coming and have Jesus just write us a book of correct theology, rather than just live.
Or maybe God did know what he was doing?
Or maybe God did know what he was doing?(Bruce)
Or maybe “God” had nothing to do with it
Good point, John! Very good point!
I would like to add a link from a blog I visit regularly whose latest is dealing with this subject of “knowing” that I’m right, “The Feeling of Knowing”. It is very good!! Here’s the link:
http://experimentaltheology.blogspot.com/2009/01/certainty-and-dogmatism-feeling-of.html
Here’s a bit from the post I referenced above:
“The point of all this is that religious dogmatism is so stubborn because we aren’t dealing with rationality. We are working with an emotional system. Overtly, the conversation is about biblical texts or rational arguments. But at root what is governing the conversation is the feeling of knowing. And if the person feels they are right then quality counter-arguments just won’t penetrate. The dominant emotional tone of conviction convinces the person that he is in the possession of the truth. That feeling drives the conversation.”
ALL:
I was looking at a book on internet called “Lost Teachings of Jesus: Missing texts and Reincarnation” by Mark and/or Elizabeth Prophet, and was thinking about ordering it until I came across their sons website called “Black Sun Journel” who discribes his family who left mainstream religion and created their own and how this affected him. His entire family became Atheist and he said religion should post a warning: may be harmful to your sense of reality. And how religion takes away true family unity. He gives one alot to think about. His website address is http://www.blacksunjournal.com/about if you are interested.
I agree, no matter what road we take, all people from birth on are indocrinated with millions of other peoples already acquired knowledge. What else do we have???
Because he first loved us – Sue
..no matter what road we take, all people from birth on are indocrinated with millions of other peoples already acquired knowledge. What else do we have???
Quote from ‘Because he first loved us – Sue’
You have your ‘heart’ Sue – that place within you referred to in scripture as ‘the garden’ ‘the sanctuary’, the ‘holy of holies’, ‘heaven’, ‘in glory’ ‘the mansions prepared for you’. It is the place where the risen Christ dwells, where you meet with Father and where you find your REAL self. It is here you discover your ONENESS with the Father and ALL that is in Him, you access the same mind as the risen Christ who said I and the Father are ONE. You are in that ONE. The Father only ever begot one son, and in Him is every other son – that is your heritage. It is here in your spirit that was created in the word spoken in Gen 1.1. that you access your birthright because you were created ‘in his likeness’ and are able to fulfill the command to ‘reproduce after your kind’. It is all reached through metanoia – that word that was mistranslated as ‘repent’. What you and I have been ‘indoctrinated with’ has happened from the time we were formed in our mother’s wombs, NOT when we were created, aeons before time began. Are you aware that a root word from which our word TRUTH is derived comes from a verb ‘to remember’? Thinking from our heart restores the memory of the mind within us that we lost when we took the forbidden fruit, when we listened to the snake, when we took for real the unreality of ‘this world’. Again I state that scripture is not just a history book – it is an up-to-the- minute exposure of who we are and where we are in our ‘earth experience’ walk at this very moment. But, you do not have to read it to find out because it is all in your heart – what has been written down in scripture is from other’s hearts – you have all this within you accessed through metanoia!
Thinking from our heart restores the memory of the mind within us that we lost when we took the forbidden fruit, when we listened to the snake, when we took for real the unreality of ‘this world’. Again I state that scripture is not just a history book – it is an up-to-the- minute exposure of who we are and where we are in our ‘earth experience’ walk at this very moment. But, you do not have to read it to find out because it is all in your heart – what has been written down in scripture is from other’s hearts – you have all this within you accessed through metanoia!(Audrey)
As I read this I found it so hard not to have an image of a “Flower Child” giving a sermon to her friends right after they smoked a big fat joint.Wow!
Barry – we have not yet attained it because not even Paul had attained it – how frustrating for him who could ’see’ it so clearly and yet not be able to walk in it. He had to go through death, but the Father is speaking a ‘new thing’ now to us and it is simply because we are in the appointed time – not because we merit it, but because this is the day when eyes will be opened and the Kingdom revealed. There the King reigns, and in the Kingdom there is NO DEATH. We have the Elohim chorus cheering us on, all those that have gone before Paul included – those unseen hosts there with us today. We have the whole of creation willing us to lay aside this world and it’s way of thinking and seek the Kingdom first. As we do we will receive our invitation to the marriage feast, and then we will marry the Son. All of us. We have not entered in because as yet nobody has ‘married the son’, therefore we have not fulfilled what Father asked us to do in the beginning which was to ‘go forth and reproduce after our own kind’. BUT, the bride (us, all of us, as ONE) is being prepared, but first, like the Shulamite woman in the S of S we must find the whereabouts of our beloved. Hence, metanoia! Through that we find HIM.
.
John tells us Jesus said that the ‘helper’ the spirit of truth that the human mind cannot receive, because it cannot see him or know him, would be sent to remain with us forever. We will recognise him because he abides in us, lives in our hearts. At THAT TIME the world will not see a physical Jesus, because he will ‘be no more’, (dead) but YOU WILL BEHOLD ME, because I live in you, you will live also. IN THAT DAY (today) you will know that I am in my Father and you in me, and I in you – on the throne of our hearts. We will see that death is just an illusion and we will live in His life, doing the work of the Father.
Titfortat,
Your comment made me smile – I have just watched ‘I met the Walrus’.interview with John Lennon. I’m not in the same league but he sure ’saw’ a lot.
Audrey,
You have indicated and insinuated all your knowledge comes from within, so why are you “watching” anything – for the knowledge?
Because he first loved us – Sue
Hey Audrey
Thanks of the responce.
A few thoughts:
Quote:
Barry – we have not yet attained it because not even Paul had attained it
End quote.
Phl 3:4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5 CIRCUMCISED the eighth day, of the STOCK OF ISRAEL, [of] the TRIBE OF BENJAMIN, an HEBREW of the Hebrews; as touching THE LAW, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is IN THE LAW, blameless.
Phl 3:7 But what things WERE GAIN TO ME, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, WHICH IS OF THE LAW, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
Phl 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Audrey, Paul is speaking “soteriologically”.
You are speaking it would seem, exclusively “exponentially”.
Soteriology involved a historical fulfilled perfection which took place at the end of the visible elements of the world (IE the law).
It is clear that they were expecting this “perfection” to be complete in their generation.
Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work IN YOU will perform [it] UNTIL THE DAY OF JESUS CHRIST:
Phl 1:7 Even as it is meet for me to think this of YOU ALL, because I have YOU IN MY HEART; inasmuch as both in my bonds, and in the defence and confirmation of the gospel, YE ALL are partakers of MY GRACE.
Phl 1:8 For God is my record, how greatly I long after YOU ALL in the bowels of Jesus Christ.
Phl 1:9 And this I pray, that YOUR LOVE may abound yet more and more in knowledge and [in] all judgment;
Phl 1:10 That YE MAY APPROVE things that are excellent; that YE MAY BE SINCERE and without offence TILL THE DAY OF CHRIST;
Phl 1:28 And in nothing terrified by YOUR ADVERSARIES: which is to them an evident token of perdition, but to you of salvation, and that of God.
Phl 1:29 For unto YOU it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but ALSO TO SUFFER FOR HIS SAKE;
Phl 1:30 Having the SAME CONFLICT which ye saw IN ME, and now hear [to be] in me.
Col 1:24 Who now rejoice IN MY SUFFERINGS, for you, and FILL UP that which is BEHIND OF THE AFFICTIONS OF CHRIST in my flesh for his body’s sake, which is the church:
Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, TO FULFIL THE WORD OF GOD;
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory AT THE APPEARING OF JESUS CHRIST:
1Pe 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
1Pe 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls.
1Pe 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] UNTO YOU:
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to TRY YOU, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 FOR THE PERFECTING OF THE SAINT, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they WITHOUT US should not be MADE PERFECT.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.
This perfecting of the faithful followers which involved their being tested and suffering and also their putting off the old (covenant, outward) man (of appearance), was completed in the ending of the visible elements of the world.
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God {trusting in the still visible elements of the world}, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2Cr 10:6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, WHEN YOUR OBEDIENCE IS FULFILLED. {When the old (covenant) man was judged in the passing away of the law. IE judged to not be the truth of God’s grace. Note that this is not revenge as we think about it but rather a necessary changeover where the ones still having confidence in this system experenced change. The Christians had been preaching that these visible elements would pass away and the “priests of that world” didn’t believe it so as to be saved from this passing. 1 Cor. 2:6-8}
2Cr 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ’s, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ’s, even so [are] we Christ’s.
So that these “first-fruits” were perfected and then the “end” (of the visible old covenant elements of the world) came.
Not that we cannot or do not have an experiential growth but that our experience is more of a realization of the truth which is historically confirmed. Our development or growth does not historically confirm things as did the ending of the visible elements of the old covenant world.
Blessings
JMO
Barry
Sorry, mistake here:
“You are speaking it would seem, exclusively “exponentially”.”
Should read experientially. My spelling is not perfect
My spelling is very very bad and I clicked the wrong one on my spell check.
Barry
Barry, I dont care about the SPelling in your writing, – I’m looking to the SPirit in your writing! If I had a smilie-face symbol I’d put one here.
Don R,
I read the link you posted, it was thought provoking. I hope you and others will check out Black Sun Journel and his thoughts in “about”. I’m still pondering his view.
What I want to ask you is – isn’t the point of BG for people to express their own learning, thoughts, ups and downs, interpretations, etc.?? ALL will be, and have been challenged for what they post. If not, then why is anyone posting here? Would it have been better to only have had 1 response and no discussion to this or any other main post? The thoughts of others help me broaden my views even if anothers view is odd to me, or non biblical, or biblical, secular, insightful, dull, etc.,etc.,etc. I will ask questions and also try to express what I think I have learned. By the way your opinion was the 55th?! There is nothing wrong in trying to make sense of or understand what another person is posting. I read your post where you got the link above and it sounded like you borrowed it to set – all of us participating in this post- straight. Your opinion is no better or worse than the rest of us.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Titfortat,
I have never smoked anything but I think I am ready for that big fat Joint!!
Hey Audrey,
“If I had a smilie-face symbol I’d put one here.”
Just type this key, : and then this key ) without a space in between and it will make this
Blessings and oneness
Barry
Sue- You are reading me all wrong. I know very little and like you simply want to share and read. I have only been on this journey for four years after 59 years deeply involved in a conservative church. Please don’t take offense. When I find something that might add to the conversation, I supply it for information only. Each of us must decide what’s best.
Tried everything Barry, my pc won’t compute it! (It’s an old laptop reaching it’s use-by date) You’ll just have to ’see’ it spiritually!!
Really folks, this forum is a great place discus and express. Thanks to all concerned.
Hope I have not inodated this thread with my own opinions.
Love Barry
PS,
Yes Audrey I can see it.
BTW you only see the “face” only after the post goes up on the board. The only thing that you see while writing is this “:” and this “)” but stuck together. So it will look like this “: )” but with no space until you press Submit Comment.
Barry
Thanks Barry – I’ll try it!
XOX
Woo-hoo
XOX
Hey there’s a spiritual lesson in this – stepping out, from my heart, not knowing the consequences but going by the feeling (I could feel the love from Barry trying to help an old codger, so I trusted him and wanted to respond to him – that’s the Christ in him). I just did what he said from that metanoia feeling (not going by my experience or what I’d read or could see – all that’s from the head), and hey presto, great joy. Rejoice with me all you IT literate people!!
Don thanks for sharing, I checked out that “Feeling of Knowing”, good stuff indeed! I read this little bit from “On Being Certain:believing you are right even when you’re not”, sure made me chuckle, lets just not take it too seriously…or should we…?
“Just before my mother died at age ninty seven, I asked her what she had learned from her long life. Always circumspect and non committal on such subjects, she answered tersely “So what?”
I asked her again. “You must have developed some philosophy of life after all these years” She shrugged and repeated, “So what?” I persisted and asked again. She looked at me and said, deadpan and enigmatic, “I just told you what I learned.”
-Robert Burton
Don R,
Thank you for clearing the air – it smells fresher at BG when all realize no one person has all the answers for everyone. Again, I did like the link you shared.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Marco. I love the story of your mother. That is true wisdom, a heavenly insight.
Marco,
Loved the mother story – I wonder what each of us will sum up our earth learning experience with?