More or Less?
This is just a very simple question for all of our BG readers out there. It is a YES or NO question but please feel free to elaborate if you want to. HERE IS THE QUESTION:
Do we as humans have the ability to make ourselves more or less spiritual?
The answer is we ARE spiritual – that is our TRUE identity. We were created way back before time began in the identity of our REAL Father, with the ability to reproduce after our own kind i.e. spiritual offspring. But, when we were FORMED in our mother’s womb, by our own WILL we decided to walk the way of this world, (listen and take hold of a twisted thought). We cannot MAKE ourselves spiritual, we just need to realise our true identity, WHO WE ARE and live from it rather than the identity we birthed for ourselves from the time we were formed in our mother’s womb from her egg and a sperm. That one is an IMAGINERY identity and not the real us at all. The REAL us is waiting patiently within us until we WILL to change from thinking through that earth-mode to thinking from that spirit mode, i.e. changing Fathers!!! (metanoia).
I agree with Audrey that we are spiritual. I think we do have the capability to learn more about ourselves and our connection to God. We don’t make ourselves spiritual by doing things, we simply learn more like with any relationship. I’d like to think we discover more about our spirituality as opposed to “making” ourselves more spiritual.
3.
I have just returned from taking my 93 year-old mother to an appointment for her feet. While the podiatrist was working, she chatted to me and the subject quickly changed from the beautiful weather we are presently enjoying in NZ, to deeper things. We recognised the spirit in each other – there was trust, oneness, unity. I explained the mis-translated word ‘repent’ and gave her the true translation – metanoia. You would think the clinic had been hit by a lightening strike. She got it straight off and gave me some examples. That mother of 3 is SO looking forward to this new year ‘because’, she said,’the material world is falling down – it’s been shot in the foot and I KNOW something better is here, I can feel it coming right now. Thankyou for that word – I can’t wait to tell my Dad who’s always taught me to live from my heart!”
Trackback URI | Comments RSS
Divinity itself is a human concept. But as far as humans becoming more or less spiritual through ability is a good question, although it is kind of like asking can humans be more or less human?
I don’t think spirituality is something we gain or attain to though, its more something we become aware of, that has always been and always will be, not just a part of us, but IS us.
I think we have this aspect built right into us – created that way – it all depends on how we tap into that aspect of our being. In that sense, we can access it more or less – it takes effort and introspection.
Spirtuality is not attained, it is revealed.
I just realized I said pretty much the same thing everybody else said!
I like Marco’s answer + Audrey’s. We are spiritual. We can become more aware of that fact.
“Do we as humans have the ability to make ourselves more or less spiritual?”
per dictionary spiritual means – Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit – not tangible or material
Being “spiritual” does not necessarily mean a good thing, as there is spiritual wickedness as well as spiritual God-like-ness.
I would say, most humans, through learning and experiences can aquire the ability to become more and less spiritually good natured or bad natured. There are many humans who, through no fault of their own, have mental illness or other severe circumstances and do not have control over their selves. So, yes and no.
Well all I can say is after those Mushrooms I definately felt more connected to GOD………….Woohooooooooooo
Can someone define the word “spiritual”?
I’m not sure, (since we are flesh and blood) that we can become “spirtual”.
The term seems very nebulous.
Sue made a good point that it may not be such a good thing (evil spirits too) even if we could do ‘it’.
The Hebrews did not think in a physical verses spiritual mindset.
IMHO that is pretty much Western thinking that goes back to the Greek dualism.
But it is not an easy subject. And these terms do not mean the same things to different people.
Paul said to the first-century Christians who are in Rome, “we are not in the flesh but in the spirit”. Obviously he was not claiming that they had lost their physicality.
Paul said, “flesh and blood shall not inherit the kingdom of heaven” but Paul was not addressing the physicality of things but “ethnicity” and “bloodlines” as the “law” headed up. He is referring to the law. That being the mind-set.
In this sense “flesh and blood” have passed away because the law has passed away.
That is why now “God is all and in all”.
IMHO Spirituality is more of a mind set than a composition.
It refers to what is realized as opposed to what we become (as others have said).
We were made in “His image”. Paul says that the Greeks were also “His offspring”. Since dogs don’t have kittens, seems that being the offspring of God say A LOT about who we really are even if we may not fully realize it or realize it yet.
Spiritual to me means things like, loving each other. Like knowing that we are one and all in this together and so embracing and even esteeming our differences. Be that male or female or ethnicity and even somewhat our cultures.
Just some thoughts,
Barry
Did anyone see “God’s Warriors” report by Christiane Amanpour from CNN in August of 2007? I did not, but I came across it today. It is about religions around the world and how they all think they have the complete truth. She goes into each mainstream world religion and spends time talking with leaders. It is over 6 hours of report.
CNN Presents God’s Warriors-video
Steve, glad you are back!!
Because he first loved us – Sue
Thanks Sue!
I’ve got to go out of town for work soon, so I won’t be able to participate very much.
But I really like this site and the civility of all involved.
As far as spirituality goes, my pastor likes to say that “it could mean virtually anything.”
And that the down to earth nature of the gospel is that God handles the spiritual parts of the relationship and we are free to be what we were created to be…human.
I did see that CNN special and the spirituality that I saw in it was very scary indeed!
Thanks!
Spiritual to me means things like, loving each other. Like knowing that we are one and all in this together and so embracing and even esteeming our differences.,,(Barry)
Right on Barry! It is impossible in 2009 to live our lives with any joy using external worldly values. Oh we can have a sort of life, similar to a ‘virtual’ life, but it can come nowhere near the life that has been designed for us by Father. Once we’ve had a glimpse of this REALITY the world-life will lose it’s sparkle. We’ll find we cannot trust it. We ARE spiritual beings and when we connect spirit to spirit with each other, physical differences become a ‘nothing’, so does gender and age and ethnicity. In that INternal Eternal realm is the love you speak of Barry – that Agape love, there is UNITY – that oneness Jesus spoke of – I and the Father are one and we are in that one. We can look at each other and see the face of Christ. And in this realm we are able to reproduce after our own kind, spiritual offspring. But first we marry the Son, that’s the whole reason we are ‘coming together’ – there’s a marriage to attend, and it’s ours.
Steve,
Have good and safe trip and come back soon!
SUE
Sue,
Thanks very much!
Learning, reading, thinking, observing, prayer, trusting, writing, loving, practicing, be still and know I am God, etc. are all avenues of revelation to the human soul, heart, mind.
Because he first loved us – Sue
I think the greatest expression of spirituality is the willingness to love others wastefully, as Christ so we are. Don’t need a bible, don’t need doctrines, don’t need religion, just a willing heart
Right on Marco!
Marco and Audrey,
If either of you ever need a serious operation make sure you hire a non-doctor, uneducated hermit with a willing heart to perform your operation.
Audrey, Without the bible stories you learned you would not have been able to impart your interpretation of Mary & other stories to us.
Marco, you said “as Christ so we are” didn’t you learn that from the bible?
Have I misunderstood?
I have not heard the word wastefully used this way except here at BG
and I really don’t get it. Could you enlighten me Marco?
Because he first loved us – Sue
I don’t think we have the ability to make ourselves more or less spiritual. I think we plant and we water and God gives the increase. Just what is it that He increases? He increases our awareness to our true identity and that awareness will happen eventually because God has placed us all into an environment where we can not help but learn. Now is it possible for us to learn a little quicker by planting and watering as He has given us direction? Yes, I think God has given us many tools (including the bible) to learn from if we so choose and those tools can help us move closer to the place where God can increase our awareness. Can it be done in one earthly lifetime? I don’t think so.
Sue your sarcasm is cute but it doesn’t have any legs, do you suppose Jesus knew how to fix a Honda Civic’s transmission? What about how to work on scuba gear? No? How about a leper? Did he know how to fix a leper? I think the answer is yes indeed, he reached out and t o u c h e d them, ones that all others avoided and shunned…
Christ is representative of that universal love that just IS, think of a mothers love for her children, do you suppose any mother that ever existed needed a bible or doctrines or religion or “spiritual knowledge” in order to nurse and care for her little ones? Does that love ever stop or become conditional? Watch an episode of Intervention and see what hell some mothers(and dads) go through yet the love never waivers, it only intensifies!
also, loving wastefully = Because he first loved us -
Sue I am learning it from expirence as go along, not hired doctrine, or increased knowledge in religious matters. I often speak things figuratively, so I apologize for my sometimes lack of clarity.
Hey Audrey my sister, thanks for the thumbs up!
I agree Cliff the bible is a wonderful tool, just what kind of tool…well…now thats relative to the interpretation. »For instance, it has been used to justify both the killing of gays and the loving -acceptance of gays, take your pick. It is that wild.
I agree Marco. It is simply a tool and just like a hammer, it can be used to build something up or to tear it down…….It is our choice how we use the tools of this glorious universe.
Marco,
Am I not your sister, too? You hurt my feelings.
You sound so angry. What I said was right on and cute.
Jesus had no need of fixing cars, etc. Lepers, yes, and he healed
according to his mission. His mission was to teach love by loving.
I know the love mothers have, I am a mother of 4. Human love has yet
to match the love of Jesus. The love Jesus expressed was paid for with
his life for all. That love now IS. Humans have the capacity to love or
not love. Humans need to learn about the love that IS. That is taught
from the bible. Humans are not capable of the love Christ bestowed that
now IS. No other human has been asked to die for all. We are asked to
love God and each other.
Marco, I do sometimes have a hard time understanding you and
sometimes I get what you say perfectly. I find you engaging. Personally
I would not want you to be different. Do not apologize for the way you
express yourself, we will all be challenged by others in order to come to
an understanding of each others thoughts. We are all learning as we go.
Thank you for explaining wastefully. I also don’t understand IMHO that
some use.
I think we need more than a willing heart – we need knowledge
to know where to WILL that heart. I think we need the bible and religion
and doctrines, what each of us believe is a doctrine or sorts. What we
don’t need is to kill each other, body or spirit, over what we think.
Just my thoughts —
I hope we can converse with love.
Because he first loved us – wastefully – Sue
Because he first loved us Sue, IMHO stands for in my humble opinion. I had to ask somebody that when I first started reading Jim’s blog. To me it seems to be a self-efacing way of crawling into somebody’s ‘good’ opinion, but like any language it’s where it comes from that is important – one has to get that from the rest of what the writer says (the head or the heart).
.
I would like to explain too that the way I first heard those bible stories they were given as examples of morals to be followed or as historical fact or stories told at Sunday school. Thirty years ago I ’saw’ that what I had been taught was just an imitation of Truth, and not TRUTH itself. At that time I decided not to read any of the bible again unless it was first revealed to me in my heart. Over the past number of years and especially very recently many of the stories have come alive. I can now understand them because they have been ‘lifted up’ to a higher dimension. How I relate them now is from my heart for the purpose of setting people free from doctrine. In a little while there will be no need to use the bible at all because we will ALL be speaking from our hearts THE WORD, and it wont be in any biblical language, it will be the most NATURAL communication and it will change the world.
Sue yes my sister and no I am not angry, failure to communicate via interweb strikes again
Thats right Jesus had no need to fix cars etc. that was not his purpose, so it is with what you said about hiring a non educated hermit to do an operation, not his purpose.
I will share my opinion here in regards to understanding Jesus, what I find you doing is confusing the human Jesus who lived fully with the mythological Jesus from the sky came down to save. Basically you are mixing religion with life. Nasty mix. Creates confusion and discord.
That which is a mothers love for her little ones IS the love of Jesus. It is not any the lesser, it is the same, in the spirit of Jesus(the realm of God) that love just doesn’t extend to the little ones, but to all.
Jesus was not asked to die for all, he gave his life away on his own accord, out of that spirit of life that loves wastefully and lives fully – by not counting the cost, figuratively speaking gave himself away and took upon himself the sin of the world, I agree humanity’s greatest need is to love like that so we can stop killing one another, as Audrey stated there is a growing consciousness that is awakening to Life within, that awareness doesn’t come from the bible doctrines or religion, it comes from the heart, the kingdom of God is a heart kingdom, nothing more nothing less.
The only thing religion doctrines bible could, or can ever do, is point to that which is beyond definition and form.
I just received this from J.S Spong this morning, it was his response to a question about heaven/hell and Jesus as a personal savior, it seems to really fit with what we are discussing:
When you ask about “believing in Jesus Christ as your personal savior” you are using stylized evangelical language. That language has no appeal at all for me. To assert the role of savior for Jesus implies a definition of human life as sinful, fallen and helpless. It assumes the ancient myth that proclaimed that we were created perfect only to fall into sin from which we need to be rescued. It was a popular definition before people understood about our evolutionary background. We have been evolving toward humanity for billions of years. Our problem is not that we have fallen from some pristine perfection into a sinful state from which we need to be saved, it is that we need to be empowered to become something that we have never been, namely fully human beings. So the idea that I need a savior to save me from a fall that never happened and to restore me to a status that I never possessed is in our time all but nonsensical. It is because we do not understand the nature of human life that we do not understand the Jesus role. I see in Jesus the power of love that empowers us to be more deeply and fully human…
This was posted on another “grace-freaks” place LOL!
I think you will like it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cjyb0t5Jm44
Barry
Audrey,
Thankyou for IMHO meaning. Have you ever read ‘A Course in Miracles?
Marco,
Could you expound on what you mean to be more fully human? (not Spongs but what you think) Do you believe in life beyond the carnal? Do you believe God or in God? (just asking where you are coming from and not being mean spirited) Do you believe we are dust and to dust return?
If so, then what?
For me, GOD planted the tree of Knowledge of good and evil and mankind was to participate by becoming like God but NOT God. Mankinds eyes were opened and now had to deal with that knowledge. GOD also planted the tree of Life who is Jesus and God gives of that water freely. GOD gave the increase – Jesus – the Spirit of Truth – and Truth is Jesus the WORD.
For me, to be fully human is to recognize my need for the Spirit of Truth, the water freely given to all, even if one does not reconize it.
I am not and never will be GOD. I am his Image, his Shadow, his creation. To only rely on my own brain power for me is a dangerous engagement. It tends to puff one up to think they are more than what GOD says we are, and that is his children, adopted through love.
I love having words of knowledge in written form and I also will embrace other gospels found after the bible was put into book form. I also embrace enlightenment. I believe all humans experience enlightenment.
Religion, per se, is other peoples opinions which puts conditions between freedom in Christ and each indiviual. We all have opinions therefore religion.
Some enlightenment is religion. The bible to me, was written in a way to make people think. I do not group “religion” and the bible as the same.
A mothers love is a glimpse of the Jesus love. A mothers love is not perfect because she will never know that child fully, like GOD/JESUS knows each of us. A human mother sometimes kills her own children, thinking it is the loving thing to do, under whatever circumstance. Jesus gives life.
I could be way off, and I am sure by what others teach here, for them, that is so. I don’t mind, for there is freedom in Christ.
Just my thoughts.
Because he first loved us – Sue
I saw a quote today that really spoke to me…
Remember not only to say the right thing in the right place, but far more difficult still, to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment. Benjamin Franklin
Barry,
Loved the link! – and a child -(and animals) shall lead them….
Bruce,
Great quote – AH, the delimma of we humans!
Sue
Barry……Absolutely loved the video and the message of oneness we have right in front of us if we will just see it.
thats a great quote, Ben Franklin really gave us some zingers!
“For having lived long, I have experienced many instances of being obliged, by better information or fuller consideration, to change opinions, even on important subjects, which I once thought right but found to be otherwise.”
Benjamin Franklin
-probably sums up best my expirence these past few years.
The elephant and the dog story is powerful indeed, thanks Barry.
Sue I appreciate your questions, but to say much more I would probably be just repeating myself. We are so culturally conditioned to understanding/relating to God theistically, to think otherwise doesn’t even pop up on our radar. My radar picked it up, hence my evolving view. Sometimes one doesn’t desire to change certain views on things but when reality strikes like lightning that one is left without much of a choice(speaking for myself here).
ya’ll have a superb weekend!
Marco
Thanks for the link Barry. That’s amazing!
Marco,
I am sory you choose not to answer my ?’s, I thought we were exchanging ideas to understand each other better and maybe learn new ways of seeing things, hence, reason for BG. I hope sometime you change your mind as I would like to know you better.
It was the WILL of the Father that Jesus complete his mission. Jesus died and was resurrected in obedience to the Fathers WILL. His obedience to his mission was his decision. So, he was asked and he willingly obeyed his Fathers WILL.
We love because he first loved us – Sue
We are so culturally conditioned to understanding/relating to God theistically, to think otherwise doesn’t even pop up on our radar.(Marco)
I would agree with this to a point. Though I grew up in a predominantly Christian community my driving force for my view of the world and universe was from a secular standpoint. An example for this is Christmas. It was only recently that I realized just how religious all those Christmas songs are. When I was younger they were just Christmas songs. And for us Christmas was a time for family, friends, food and drink and the sharing of gifts, there were no thoughts given to Jesus as Saviour.Lol. Perspective is everything I guess. I like that I was not forced to take only one viewpoint on the idea of a Creator, it has allowed me to be more flexible and take the best and discard the worst from all the ideas out there. Now that to me is Ekklesia.
Hey Sue and everyone.
Quote from Sue:
For me, GOD planted the tree of Knowledge of good and evil and mankind was to participate by becoming like God but NOT God. Mankind’s eyes were opened and now had to deal with that knowledge.
End quote.
Hope you don’t mind me using a quote from you Sue to bring up a few random thoughts.
Hope you do not mind,
here is my take on that:
Background:
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of GOOD and EVIL, thou SHALT NOT EAT OF IT: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, [It is] NOT GOOD that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.
Gen 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree [was] GOOD for food, and that it [was] pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired TO MAKE [one] WISE, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they KNEW that they [were] naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons.
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is BECOME AS ONE OF US, to KNOW good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
It does sound as if God did not want mankind (or Adam and Eve) to become like Himself here.
Let’s contrast this with another passage:
Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. {Which is an application of the knowledge of good and evil}
Mat 5:44 BUT I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do GOOD to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Mat 5:45 That YE MAY BE THE children of your Father {Children of God is usually used as a reference of bearing the characteristic of God and does not refer to the universal meaning of being the offspring of God} which is in heaven: for he maketh HIS SUN to rise on the EVIL and on the GOOD, and sendeth rain on the JUST and on the UNJUST.
Mat 5:46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
Mat 5:47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more [than others]? do not even the publicans so?
Mat 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, EVEN AS your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
These different passages speak of two covenants:
The first covenant is of the knowledge of good and evil.
The second is of unconditional love.
To attain to unconditional love one must first pass through conditions (at least historically as we had the old first and then the new).
Adam and Eve became like God knowing good and evil. This however does not mean that this is God’s higher function of mentality. It means that God was aware of this knowledge and used it to form the first covenant.
The knowledge of good and evil functioned much like a shadow of good things to come which was ultimately perfection (see the book of Hebrews).
During the transition of the covenants (new testament writings), the priesthood of followers served as a “first-fruits” sacrifice participating in the transition until the visible elements of the first creation was burned up which assured in the general resurrection. Priests are always priests on behalf of others. They are never priests unto themselves.
An analogy:
God made a box and placed consciousness inside of it. That consciousness was limited to the framework of that box which he made.
Then he takes a higher consciousness in introduces it inside the box. This reveals that there is an outside the box. Once this is revealed the box no longer has its seemingly inherent limitations.
(Example: “your will be done on earth as it is in heaven”)
The Bible functions as a revelation of a new creation (on the level of consciousness). Not in physical terms but as a matter of consciousness.
Example:
As a matter of consciousness Christ is the Sun of righteousness. Once new creation is fully formed there in no more sun {which happend when the elements of the old covenant world passed away}. In that man shall not live by bread alone. So that his consciousness is no longer limited by the confines of his own natural perception of things.
Hope this made some sense.
JMO
Blessings Barry
I once had the priviledge to spend social time with a preacher who could argue both sides of topics equally convincing. I guess one will become attached to whatever brings one hope, a feeling of safety and purpose. Perhaps that is the logic of chaos.
Hi Sue,
My previous post brings me to the following conclusion which is just my oppinion.
Spirituality is perhaps at least impart the personal awareness (ability based upon realization) of being an “observer” of one’s self, without condemnation.
As a human, this is the difference between the knowledge of good and evil and love without condition. We cannot love ourselves because we think through this knowledge.
We find fault in ourselves and so find fault in others.
We need to be right.
This is what killed Adam. It brought him to a living death.
Christ IMHO turned this on its head.
Your responce brought a couple of questions to my mind.
1) Why did the knowledge of good and evil bring there death?
2) How did they function beforehand without this knowledge?
Of course I have no intention of imposing myself or my views. If anyone would like, I would be interested in hearing your, or anyone else’s thoughts on what seems to me to be extremely important to the Biblical message.
So that my views will be upfront, my take is this:
On 1)
They immediately began to define themselves for themselves through performance. Hence the self defined “ego”. (the outward man) Hence Jesus said “deny yourself take up your cross and follow me” meaning give up your self developed image of yourself built upon performance and find your true self in God defined divine relationship.
On 2)
They did not determine things based on good and evil as such but looked to results and consequence without making definitive judgments of right and wrong where consequences where felt in relationships but did not determine the nature of the relationship.
One then could look to behavior through a lens of loving one’s neighbor as one did love themselves.
JMO
Barry
Barry,
Hi!
We assume Adam and Eve were in a non-dying situation before they ate of the fruit – we do not know that – what we do know is God said they would surly die if they ate of this tree. “Surely die” did not mean an immediate death. Gods warning was when you eat of that tree you will know you are carnal and will age and die. The tree of knowledge of good and evil brought Adam and Eve 2 experiences that they now would be in complete ‘awareness’ of, which are life and death. If they ate of the tree of Life they would live in this state of knowledge forever. God did not want that and blocked man from the opportunity to eat of the tree of Life. If Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree of G&E they would not have known the sting of death, even if they died in the Garden.
Before they ate of the tree the bible says they took care of the animals and the garden which was their function ordained by God.
We are created beings subject to the creator. We are not little gods and we certainly are NOT God, nor can we obtain his status.
Just my thoughts
Because he first loved us – Sue
If Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree of G&E they would not have known the sting of death, even if they died in the Garden.(Sue)
What youre basically saying is Adam and Eve were ignorant before eating the fruit. I dont know about you but I would prefer to at least have an understanding about my life than remain blissfully ignorant to it. If there was an Adam and Eve thank God they ate the fruit.
Titfortat,
I do not believe they were ignorant of all knowledge, but obviously ignorant of the fact they would die if they ate of the tree of K of G&E hence Gods warning. They may have known the words life and death but never saw or had any experiece with it until they were enlightened by their choice to eat of the tree. Mankind is enlightened everyday by things they “know of” but have not yet personally experienced. An example, one may know of murder but has not murdered therefore ignorant of the experience.
This story for me also shows Gods willingness to teach and let the student learn from experience. i.e, As parents we teach our children about adulthood by example, but it sinks in only when they experience it.
These are just my thoughts of the A&E story. What are yours??
Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliff,
I, too, have wondered about more than one life on earth experience, but I always come back to Hebrews 9:27 – “And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgement: 28 -So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many: and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
I am not sure I am understanding this in context though.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Sue
I dont really have much of an idea about the Adam and Eve story. I guess we would need to have more of Jewish take on it, rather than listening to Christians put their take on it. After all they were the original authors.
Titfortat,
Good idea! A great website is ‘Ancient Hebrew Research Center’ which I frequent often. The first believers in Jesus were Jews. There is much to learn about Jesus and his mission in context of his Jewish background. I am new to it so I have alot to learn.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Titfortat,
Good idea! A great website is ‘Ancient Hebrew Research Center’ which I frequent often. The first believers in Jesus were Jews. There is much to learn about Jesus and his mission in context of his Jewish background. I am new to it so I have alot to learn.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Hi everyone,
Quote Sue:
We assume Adam and Eve were in a non-dying situation before they ate of the fruit -
End quote.
I think the opposite for the following reasons:
Resurrection was out of SIN death not biological death. It relates to the “law”. For the sting of death IS SIN and the strength of sin IS THE LAW. The law did not bring biological death but sin death. It did however change the context of biolgical death. Adam would now fear death as a mere man of the dust.
Adam saw a law in front of him which was “you shall not eat”. And so he died the day he eat of it. For through Adam sin enter into the world.
Hypothetically speaking if Adam would not have eaten of the forbidden tree he would not have died sin death (the day that he eat of it) but would have died physically in the garden but not as a (mere) man of the dust.
Adam became fully a man “of the dust” in his mentality. A natural man to the hilt.
A few text examples:
1Cr 15:55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
1Cr 15:56 The sting of death [is] SIN; and the strength of sin [is] the LAW.
1Cr 15:57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I DIED.
Rom 7:10 And the commandment, which [was ordained] to life, I found [to be] unto death.
Rom 7:11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it SLEW [me].
Luk 9:60 Jesus said unto him, Let the DEAD bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
The coming of Christ would not end biolgical death:
Mat 16:28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, TILL they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
Jhn 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry TILL I come, what [is that] to thee? follow thou me.
Quote Titfortat.
If Adam and Eve did not eat of the tree of G&E they would not have known the sting of death, even if they died in the Garden.
End quote.
If I have understood you, I agree with that statement.
Quote Sue:
They may have known the words life and death but never saw or had any experience with it until they were enlightened by their choice to eat of the tree.
End quote.
That makes sense to me.
Adam may have known that he would die, but could not have understood the depth of the meaning as he had no experience with sin.
Just some thoughts
Barry
Sue
But the original writers who talk about the messiah didnt make him God, he is supposed to be a man. In fact original sin isnt even a Jewish idea, nor is the trinity. These are all add ons by people who didnt believe their original writers. Judaism and Christianity are not related no matter how you want to slice and dice it. I find it fascinating how people want to use the Torah to support Christianity when it wasnt intended for that.
Quote TitforTat
Judaism and Christianity are not related no matter how you want to slice and dice it. I find it fascinating how people want to use the Torah to support Christianity when it wasnt intended for that.
End quote.
Very true IMHO.
The Paul of Christianity, and the (western) “cultural” christianity thereafter are two very different things.
JMO
Barry
Sue, Look at the context in Hebrews and notice the word “ONCE” in the following three verses:
Heb 9:26-28
26 Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,
28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
As Barry said, man’s death was a SIN death and the finality of that death happened when Christ gathered All men unto himself at the cross. The first man Adam died and the second Adam (Christ) rose from that grave. So there was only one appointed time for man to die and then the judgment and that judgment was the destruction of an entire system of life built around LAW which was built around our desire to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (religion).
As far as living more then one life, John the Baptist is a good example of someone living with the spirit of a previous life:
Matt 11:13-14
13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come.
KJV
Barry,
You misquoted titfortat with my post. I don’t want him blamed for my writing!
My thought is ‘SIN’ the “STING OF DEATH’ and I do mean death as we know it – physical and spiritual are not separated in Hebrew thought/Hebrew verb mot means literal death. More specific the Hebrew says “for in the day you eat from it a dying you will die,”(dying process)kicked in. The ’sin’ or ‘missing the mark’ was believing in ones own thoughts (the fruit was pleasant to the eye and a tree to be desired to make one wise – (more wise than or as wise as God, therefore not needing God – a separation from Gods complete care). Independent.
Titfortat,
The Jews were expecting an earthly king. Jesus said he was and IS the messiah but not one of/in this world. His mission was much bigger. ?’s, Has there been any other messiah since Jesus? Has any other messiah accomplished what Jesus has done?
Jesus has redeemed us from our independence from GOD.
Just my thoughts
Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliff,
Thank you. I need to think on this for awhile. I may need more clarification – hope no one minds.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Consider the words of Jesus,
Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
Clearly misunderstood by the listeners.
There are several “deaths” involved in scripture and each is contextually driven:
Biological (seen differently from the sin conscience to relationship consciousness)
Sin (hence the thrust of the book of Hebrews which the perfection of the conscience)
Covenantal (also called the second death at the end of the visible elements of the old covenant world)
On this subject then the thrust or conclusion of my view is IMHO the same as Cliff’s. [Feel free to correct me if I have miss spoken].
The difference being that I see a transitional period between the cross and the end visible elements of the old covenant world which were destroyed in AD 70 (the holy city and the temple made with hands which was the focus of their system of worship).
The present day conclusion would IMO be very similar however. Christ paid the price for all period!
I also agree that Hebrews 9:26-28 does not disprove reincarnation. Personally speaking I have no opinion on the subject. Don’t cheer now, LOL ROFL!
Forgive me for any misquotes in my previous post.
Barry
Cliff,
If Elijah went straight to heaven without dying didn’t his spirit go with him,
therefore, could not be reincarnated?
If all men are appointed once to die how come Elijah gets to bypass death?
Just wondering
Sue
Fun ? website
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20081016230250AAdIog4
Elijah entered into the same death as the rest of us at the cross when Jesus gathered all men unto himself.
What is physical death for? Will it be ressurected? How could
Sorry, I’m having computer trouble. How could Elijah be in heaven and in John the B. at the same time?
Sue, the same way we are in heaven and in this body at the same time. The Kingdom of Heaven is within us all…….it’s not a place we go but rather a state of being. I don’t know how reincarnation works or even if it does work but something inside me says it does. Maybe I’m just an old fool, but it makes sense to me that the evolving of mankind moves foward through reincarnation of some sort.
Jesus has redeemed us from our independence from GOD.(Sue)
Maybe in your mind, but from my view of the world all Jesus and his Christian followers have done is create division and exclusion. And if he was supposed to come back he’s sure taking his sweet time. In fact scripture about Jesus and what he was and is supposed to be is so convoluted it would take a rocket scientist to figure out. Im amazed that anyone actually thinks they know what it all means. Down right incredible actually.
Titfortat,
Everything about everything is downright incredible. Why be so hostile to other people who ponder it and try to make sense of things?
Tell me, what makes sense to you about why, how, when, where, what for, etc. mankind exists? What are your current beliefs? No one who posts at BG are completely like minded.
Cliff,
I was thinking that JB took on the ’spirit of Elijahs mission’ to bring it to fruition, i.e. one president of like mind from the last one carries his spirit of the job into his term.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Cliff,
p.s. I did not as far as I know ask to be here in the first place – I really don’t want to come back unless everything is REALLY at peace.
Sue
The first ? at fun website I posted above is about JB & E
A completely different take on JB & E I found at Sun Moon website :
http://www.unification.net/dp96/dp96-1-4.html
go to section 2
Why be so hostile to other people who ponder it and try to make sense of things? (Sue)
Im curious, are the people on here and other Christians around the world trying to make sense of things, or are they all trying to find a way to make the idea of Jesus fit? Honestly, is it nice and inclusive for lets say a Jew to hear how Jesus would slam the Pharisees? Is that loving and inclusive? I like discussion as much as any on here, I personally just find that sometimes its more focused on Jesus rather than how do we actually help each other. With that said, I find each and everyone has some measure of wisdom and I learn from that. Its actually quite amazing what you can learn from people when you put them on the spot.
I really don’t want to come back unless everything is REALLY at peace?(Sue).
If your world was always at peace, how would you know that? You wouldnt have any contrast to measure it against.
Titfortat,
You did not answer my question about what you believe.
By peace, I mean humans not starving, wars, killing, stealing, cheating,
unloving, and what we call natural disasters etc.etc. – all those being
gone. It would be nice if there was true harmony.
What would you like life to be?
Sue said: “p.s. I did not as far as I know ask to be here in the first place – I really don’t want to come back unless everything is REALLY at peace.”
I’m really at a loss why you feel that way. This site has always been a place where people can come to be at peace in expressing their different views about life here on earth. The peace that Jesus offers is not peace like this world offers. I believe the peace he offers is a peace that we can have in spite of our present circumstances or beliefs. It’s a peace that says somewhere down deep inside of us that “THINGS WILL BE OK REGARDLESS OF WHAT THE PRESENT MOMENT LOOKS LIKE.” I really appreciate all that you bring to this site even when we don’t agree and I hope you will continue but if you choose to not come back then we at BG wish you Godspeed.
Sue
I dont much like pain anymore than you do, but I am coming to more of a peaceful place in my life to realize that it is part of the plan. There is nothing wrong, as in not intended. I believe the creator(whatever that may be) created this world with these things(pain and pleasure) as an integral part of the system. I think we find “peace” when we have acceptance of what is, tempered with passion to change. One of my favourite quotes sums it up nicely.
“Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional”
On my really good days I dont suffer much lol.
If we truly are eternal beings and are safe in the grand scheme of things, wouldnt it be wise to just learn how the system that is in place, works?
Titfortat,
I love that quote and I also agree that we must accept that this system we are in and that we are safe in the grand scheme of things. There is so much I want to understand but the very root of my faith says that “God is Perfect, and so is this created system He has placed us in.” Believing that is what helps me get through the painful days with a sense of peace.
Sue, I re-read your PS. comment and realized you were talking about coming back again in this life and not to Bold Grace. Sorry for the confusion and I am relieved you weren’t talking about this site……I would have been very disappointed if you were.
Cliff
I dont think its just about accepting it, I believe its about mastering it. Thats where the peace comes in, mastering the acceptance of both pain and pleasure.
Sue
I heard this song and I thought you might like it. I get the feeling this may be how you relate somewhat to Jesus. Hope you like it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IqqCRNzYlU
Breathe lyrics
I
Played the fool today
And I
Can see us vanishing into the crowd
Longing for home again
But home
Is a feeling I buried in you
I’m alright
I’m alright
It only hurts when I breathe
And I can’t ask for things to be still again
No I can’t ask for you
To offer the world through your eyes
Longing for home again
But home
Is a feeling I buried in you
I’m alright
I’m alright
It only hurts when I breathe
I’m alright
I’m alright
It only hurts when I breathe
My window through which
Nothing hides
And everything sings
I’m counting the signs
And cursing the miles in between
But home
Is a feeling I buried in you
That I buried in you
I’m alright
I’m alright
It only hurts when I breathe
I’m alright
I’m alright
It only hurts when I breathe
When I breathe
It only hurts when I breathe
When I breathe
It only hurts when I breathe
Good point Titfortat. I do think our creator wants us to become the master over our pleasure & our pain and the first step in that process may very well be in trusting the process.
Titfortat,
“Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional”
That depends on who is suffering and from what one is suffering – I’m sure the ‘pain’ of the holacaust was great suffering for those who were there and not ‘optional’. Likewise any one being murdered, raped, starving etc. So I don’t agree with or like that quote obviously from one who has suffered little pain or suffering. Like most things pain and suffering are relative. i.e. The pain and suffering of one who is allergic to peanuts is pain and maybe death, while another person can eat nuts all day and not react. We all to one extent or another have to therefore learn to live with pain and suffering.
The earth is full of people trying to understand how it works – I even delve into that – but that does not erase the desire to learn where God fits in.
If you would get off those mushrooms you might not find Christians, Jews and those at BG so ignorant!!!
Cliff,
No problem! I misunderstand many here at BG. I even misunderstand myself at times. BG is now part of my life. I do not want to leave. You all are my web family and I love all of you.
Because he first loved us – Sue
Titfortat,
Thankyou for sharing that song – I like it very much – It does hurt when I
breathe – maybe that hurt is God telling us it’s alright and we will be home
someday. Did you write/sing this? Regardless of any of our
acquired ‘beliefs’ people are not that different as we all want be loved. I
do not have perfect or even near perfect understanding and there are
days I have many doubts, then a ray of sun gets me out of the dark again.
I like your sense of humor and that you don’t seem to mind challenge.
You are a very sweet man. I’m glad you come here and give us hell!!
Because he first loved us – Sue
If you would get off those mushrooms you might not find Christians, Jews and those at BG so ignorant!!!(Sue)
When it comes to knowing what its all about, we’re all ignorant, myself included.
Have you ever read the book, Mans search for meaning by Victor Frankl. It is about the holocaust and the camps.
“Everything can be taken from a man but …the last of the human freedoms – to choose
one’s attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one’s own way.” p.104
Sue
“I like your sense of humor and that you don’t seem to mind challenge.
You are a very sweet man. I’m glad you come here and give us hell!!”
My wife laughed when she read this one
Would you be willing to correspond via email, We would like to share something with you?
Titfortat…..we must have been thinking alike because I was just about to suggest the book by Victor Frankl. He certainly can speak from pain and how he chose to see it.
Sue……I also agree that one our most human desires is to be loved and just maybe that has to begin with loving ourselves first the way God loves us and I beleive He loves us despite our seemingly poor performance.
I first learned about the holocaust from my very young(22) beautiful jewish female 7th grade teacher. She would cry while teaching us about this horrible time and I would bearly be able to listen. I became very much afraid of the world after that. In my 30’s I decided I had to confront my fears and read more about hitler(little h on purpose.) and realized it was the following that was the most to be feared.(mob hysteria)
I did not read that book but have heard about it. It is still very painful for me to watch or read about any massacre so I try to avoid it. While I agree with his statement for ‘him’ and many others, I believe some people do not have that strength (for lack of a better word)and get lost mentally. While I admire one who can and do survive mentally from horrible circumstances, I do not have less respect for those who do not survive nor do I think they are somehow inferior.
What else was in your background other than one creator?
Titfortat,
Yes, you can reach me at:
sueandroy.1@netzero.net
Quote “1″ TitforTat:
I dont much like pain anymore than you do, but I am coming to more of a peaceful place in my life to realize that it is part of the plan. There is nothing wrong, as in not intended. I believe the creator(whatever that may be) created this world with these things(pain and pleasure) as an integral part of the system. I think we find “peace” when we have acceptance of what is, tempered with passion to change. One of my favourite quotes sums it up nicely.
End quote.
Quote “2″ TitforTat:
In fact scripture about Jesus and what he was and is supposed to be is so convoluted it would take a rocket scientist to figure out. Im amazed that anyone actually thinks they know what it all means. Down right incredible actually.
End quote
These two quotes represent IMHO an interesting diversity of thought TitforTat.
Perhaps there is a way of melding them together.
Here are some of my own personal thoughts and opinions:
Referencing quote “2″:
There are two predominate reasons why the bible is hard to understand IMO:
1) We tend to forget audience relevance and culture and language expression of the time when it was written.
2) We tend to have preset presumptions about what it may or should be saying. Most of these presumptions are attached in some way directly or indirectly to an image of ourselves (and others) that we have manufactured or imagined.
Referencing quote “1″:
Without chaos you cannot have evolution (or development). It is a necessary ingredient toward creativity (continued). As much as we may at times hate it, without it we would miss it!
Referencing quote “1+2″:
This is the fundamental story of the Bible.
But IMHO we are having trouble seeing it because we presume that “fulfillment” would bring “utopia” or at least our own idea of “utopia”.
Here is my overall take on the scriptures at this time:
]
1) God created everything.
2) The creation is not told in physical terms but in terms of consciousness. Man looked at the natural order of things and tried to determine his image based upon an extrapolation of that natural order.
The old covenant law was the heading up of this consciousness (Jer. 31:35-37). In this way Genesis chapter 1 should be treated effectually as the beginning of the old creation from which the “natural” consciousness developed from.
[But not as a physical verses spiritual dichotomy where the physical is seen as un-spiritual. IE the heavens of the heavens are a dwelling of God like a tent spread out. Good enough for Him it should not be a problem for me to have a much smaller place in it
3) This old covenant did two things simultaneously:
A) Gave people the impression that Chaos was linked to evil in the consciousness of good and evil. This then forms religion.
B) In a shadow held the “truth” of the matter of things to be revealed through Jesus and then also in the followers of Jesus (Like Heb. 9:23).
4) There was an initial revealing through the sacrifice of Jesus. Where the followers lived by the implied meaning of the sacrifice.
5) The sacrifice itself was not finalized until the second appearance. This is the Hebrew perspective where the people waited for the High Priest to appear again, then knowing that the sacrifice was accepted. (Heb. 9:28).
6) The second appearance was evidenced through the full passing away of the visible elements of the old covenant creation (temple and holy city).
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy HOLY CITY, to FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION, and to make an END OF SIN, and to make RECONCILIATION FOR INIQUITY, and to bring in EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS, and to SEAL UP VISION AND PROPHECY, and to anoint the most Holy.
7) This transition is what IMHO seems to complicate things more than any other factor for people. This is where the sayings of Jesus seem to contradict each other because he is addressing two different mind sets. This is however why Paul in good conscience was able to make a vow and have his head shaved according to the law. It is why verses like this exist:
Act 21:24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave [their] heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but [that] thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
Act 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written [and] concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from [things] offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
Act 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.
and this:
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION, unto the praise of his glory.
and this:
Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
Mat 23:32 FILL YE UP THEN THE MEASURE OF YOUR FATHERS.
Mat 23:33 [Ye] serpents, [ye] GENERATION of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell {judgement of the ending of the old covenant in the valley of Himmon}?
and this:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more {old covenant is shut up} because of thy shame, WHEN I AM PACIFIED TOWARD THEE for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
and this:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
That meaning that “historically” Jerusalem is permanently destroyed in the sense that the old cannot get into the new (as old). The law could not itself be a part of “truth and grace”.
Every tree that does not bear fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. The tree of the knowledge of good and evil did not bear fruit. In the new Jerusalem there is no such tree.
Resurrection was not about reanimation of the physical but giving life to this life. Resurrection of the biological proved the spiritual point (in the cases were this mode was visible).
JMO Barry
Barry,
“Resurrection was not about reanimation of the physical but giving life to this life.”
???? That sounds good except where does that leave millions who die in the womb, as babies or children or young men and women or anyone who does not get to become an old person, in other words those that are denied the life?
These two quotes represent IMHO an interesting diversity of thought TitforTat.
Perhaps there is a way of melding them together.(Barry)
Diverse……..that would be my brain lol. Anyways I digress. I actually dont believe the Bible as Christians have it is supposed to make sense. The reason being is the Torah is for Jews. They did not intend for these books to be used in forming another idea on God, they already had it. Now the people who didnt accept that version then decided to use it in their own rendition. That is where the similarities ended. Now, can you use scripture to help inform you on life, you sure can. Is it absolute truth, well I dont believe any of us can make a claim of Absolute, other than body death and taxes
Again I will ask this question. If we are eternal beings and we are ok in the grand scheme of things, then what is the purpose of pain and why do we feel that we have to avoid it?
Titfortat,
Good question. Someone more enlightened than I will need to answer.
Earlier you said Christains stole the Jews religion and added their own flavor making a new religion (not quote, just how I understood your words) – Jeff Brenner who hosts ‘Ancient Hebrew Reseach Center’ does talk about how the Torah as Gods original Word to humans still needs to be honored as such. Have you ever gone to this website? I am new to it so still learning what it all means to me.
TRUTH : LIKE A DIAMOND IN THE SKY
http://members.cox.net/8thday/diamond.html
something may be true but not Truth
Quote Sue:
Barry,
“Resurrection was not about reanimation of the physical but giving life to this life.”
???? That sounds good except where does that leave millions who die in the womb, as babies or children or young men and women or anyone who does not get to become an old person, in other words those that are denied the life?
End quote.
Resurrection was for humanity. Everyone now plays a part whenever one dies. Lest the one who lived to be 100 years claim that they had more life than the one who lived to 25 years old. We all contribute to human history.
Before “history” could not effectually build upon itself. It did not and could not bare fruit.
Since God has “made everything new”, history has even with its ups and down and pendulum effects been building upon itself and evolving because life was given to this life.
At no point in the past was there ever a sustainable and or evolving, women’s rights consciousness. Now there is and it’s not going to go away!
At no point in the past was there ever a sustainable and or evolving, consciousness of slavery abolition. Now there is an it is not going away.
The very basic point of just being “in this all together” is a growing and evolving consciousness. And it is not going away.
Biblically speaking, it was not the life of post-mortem that was raised but the life of this life that was raised:
Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man AS LONG AS HE LIVIETH?
The law had no dominion over post-mortem continuity.
Eze 16:55 When thy sisters, Sodom and her daughters, shall return to their former estate, and Samaria and her daughters shall return to their former estate, then thou and thy daughters shall return to your former estate.
Eze 16:56 For thy sister Sodom was not mentioned by thy mouth in the day of thy pride,
Sodom is returned to her former estate historically. That life here is what is in view.
Mat 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous GENERATION seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given TO IT, BUT the sign of the prophet Jonas:
Mat 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Mat 12:41 The men of Nineveh SHALL RISE IN JUDGMENT WITH THIS GENERATION, and shall condemn it {judge it based upon the historical application of their past example of repentance}: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas [is] here.
Mat 12:42 The queen of the south SHALL RISE UP IN THE JUDGMENT WITH THIS GENERATION, and shall condemn it {judge it based upon the historical application of their past example}: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, A GREATER THAT SOLOMON [is] here.
1Cr 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished {historically}.
1Cr 15:19 IF IN THIS LIFE ONLY we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. {Paul’s conclusions concerning the transition of the ages were applicable to “this life only”.}
1Cr 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, [and] become the firstfruits of them that slept {historically}.
Hbr 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hbr 11:2 For by it the elders obtained A GOOD REPORT. {Historically in the history of eschatology IE the bible.}
Hbr 11:39 And these all, having obtained a GOOD REPORT through faith, received NOT THE PROMISE:
Hbr 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, THAT THEY WITHOUT US SHOULD NOT BE MADE PERFECT. {ie They are make perfect historically thought the first-fruits resurrection in that generation.}
Hades was an historical waiting place, not a waiting place of postmortem continuity. Postmortem continuity was never the issue. God evolving His creation was always the issue and giving life to this life made everything new.
JMO of course.
Barry
I’d like to lift the allegory of Adam and Eve up a little. It is there, preserved and the meaning hidden for aeons in time, simply to show us where we are today. It is a picture of us. In the realm of the Father, there is no death, no falling short of the Father’s glory (sin) everything is good. Before time began he by his own will created a son in his likeness, with all the capabilities of the Father – omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence. In our way of thinking, Father is both male and female, able to reproduce Himself, by his own word, a son.
.
‘God’ only created one Son. Out of that one Son came all mankind. In creation ‘God’ and man became ONE, functioning in communion and fellowship and ‘God’ manifested Himself through man in the allegorical ‘garden‘ in a body of light. We are told that God created HIM, male and female and told HIM to fill the earth. That God-man (Jehovah -divine part, Elohim – human part), formed from the dust like a potter moulding clay, a body. The vibrations from that body of light, slowed down and coagulated to become blood. But, that body had no ‘life’ in itself. He breathed into it lives. (plural). The ability to live to honour, or to dishonour . and man became a living soul.
.
At that point there was no separate Eve, she was in this ‘God-man’ as an integral part of Adam – his soul – the womb of creation. Eve as a separate entity was formed in the mind of Adam while he was asleep. When he looked at her he said ‘you are bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh‘, and Adam, not ‘God‘, called her Eve, ‘God’ called THEM Adam.
From then humankind thought it was separate from the spirit.
.
Humankind is that woman Eve, thinking we are separate from the spirit (Adam). We think we can choose for ourselves our own destiny, forgetting that our destiny is already bound in another. We are already betrothed. Adam was not deceived in eating ‘the fruit’. He took the fruit knowing the consequence (in dying you will die), and that eventually, in time, he would take on himself this punishment for all mankind. He was at this point looking ahead to Gethsemane and ‘the cup‘ he would drink, for Christ is both the first and the last Adam. Redemption or the way back to being ONE with ‘God’ was provided for AT THAT TIME. The lamb was slain from that moment, a lamb ‘freshly slain‘.
.
The story has meaning for us in this way. We were created in the beginning in that WORD as spirit. At an appointed ‘time’ we were conceived in our mothers’ womb. From our birth we mould ourselves on those we see around us, making for ourselves an identity from our imagination that we think we are. We do it completely without input from our spirit, using our five senses time and space to believe we are what we see in the mirror. We birth that persona and inherit that mind-set (our carnal nature) We forget that within us is the Jehovah part, our REAL Father in whose likeness we were created.
.
It is not until we begin to ‘wake up’ from that carnal sleep that we become aware of another nature within us, our real identity. David said, ‘I will be satisfied with Thy likeness when I awake’ and Paul also said awake to righteousness. Many today are discovering this awareness in the most natural way, it is turning them away from that old mind-set with rules and laws and traditions and psyche, to the new – a higher realm that operates from love. From this realm we see we are ONE with the Father, we are in him and he in us. Meantime that ‘spirit of Elijah’ that was in John, is presently all around us pointing out the difference between soul-living and heart-living, bringing us all into that ‘awareness‘. We are on a journey, the cloud is moving, the mists are disappearing and we are beginning to see clearly. Not from the old mind-set that’s under death, but the new and living way.
Tiefortat,
“If we are eternal beings and we are OK in the grand scheme of things,
then what is the purpose of pain and why do we feel we have to avoid it.”
Been thinking on this – my take is: While on earth we are not eternal
beings otherwise we would not die. Our earth being (all that it entails i.e.
physical body and mind that makes each of us unique)dies, and our life
force goes back to God who gave it) Knowledge of good and evil makes
us experience both. So, the purpose of pain is a part of this knowledge
mankind sought while in the Garden of Eden. Mankind wanted to ‘know’
and experience this knowledge of both good and evil. There may not be
a ‘purpose’ to pain other than we wanted to experience it and God let us.
We as parents can hold back what our child is allowed to do only so long
then whether we like it or not they will experience what they choose and
some other junk just happens because no one has control over what
another does. I try to avoid pain cause it hurts and makes me unhappy.
But try as I might pain seems to find me, therefore, the human condition.
I also think we may try to avoid pain because it is the teacher of evil.
CRAZY?? Could be – just my thoughts and a ‘mankind’ stab at
understanding.
Because he first loved us -
Sue
Barry,
I hope that this life is not the new. If so, then, there are some lucky bastards and some unlucky ones!
What many describe as the FALL to me is not a fall but Gods willingness to let us SEE for ourselves how life is ‘knowing good and evil’ without true power to control it. I have hope and belief (however childish to some) God once again lets us into the Garden to walk with him in the cool of the evening. When he does the tree of knowledge of good and evil will not be there as it was cut down by Jesus Christ and not needed anymore.:)
Because he first loved us
Sue
Cliff,
I don’t think this life is about “mastering’ pain or pleasure. We don’t
master that which we cannot control. Enduring pain does not make us
master over it. If one is murdered they will never master it. Many people
lose their minds after a horror event in their lives. I do not think they are
beneath those who experience it differently. Many, many circumstances
are involved that make an experience different for each person.
Jesus raised Lazarus from the unseen, dead, and he was the same
person. Jesus ‘knew’ and loved him. Jesus was raised from the unseen,
dead but not corrupted and he was still Jesus but now also changed to
enter heaven to be in the presence of God. I do not believe God recycles
spirits into other bodies. What purpose would that serve and if it were
true our memories would be unbearable.
Because he first loved us
Sue
Quote Sue:
Barry,
I hope that this life is not the new. If so, then, there are some lucky bastards and some unlucky ones!
What many describe as the FALL to me is not a fall but Gods willingness to let us SEE for ourselves how life is ‘knowing good and evil’ without true power to control it. I have hope and belief (however childish to some) God once again lets us into the Garden to walk with him in the cool of the evening. When he does the tree of knowledge of good and evil will not be there as it was cut down by Jesus Christ and not needed anymore.:)
End quote.
Hey Sue,
If that tree was cut down then how is it that this life is not the new one?
What would it then take for Jesus to still do for the new one to appear?
Maybe the “new one” was a new beginning not an instant utopia. Maybe the “new one” is where the “Journey” now really begins as it was in a stagnant position previously.
Barry
Barry,
Anything is possible – I, as all others, only speculate and try to work out what makes sense to me. My posts are what I think and feel from my life so far, I do not claim perfect understanding or knowledge.
So, my take of a ‘new heaven and new earth’ would be free of living in this knowledge of good and evil earth. Right now I think we have Gods promise of a new heaven and new earth, when it comes to full fruition we won’t be in good/evil earth. And yes, it could be a process. I don’t know for sure. Do you know for sure?
Because I am subject to this good and evil earth, I am many times full of doubt about everything. Sometimes angry. Sometimes feel lost. Sometimes exhilarated. Sometimes I know in my gut, truth. Sometimes I feel I know nothing. Sometimes I am happy or content. Sometimes sad and depressed. I am fully human and express that in many ways. All humans experience intuition, gut feelings, epiphanies, being inspired, ideas etc.etc.etc. Some here call it thinking from the heart.
Perhaps all is just wishful thinking. I perfer to believe God loves me and has a wonderful blissful future prepared for all.
Just my thoughts
Because he first loved us –
Sue