Prov 22:1-2
A good name is more desirable than great riches; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold. Rich and poor have this in common: The Lord is the Maker of them all.
The essence of who I am is not in my earthly name. I am very proud of my name because I was named after my Dad, a man that taught me so much about this life and gave me the tools I needed to face the difficulties that come with this journey we are all on.
I would define my essence to be more the result of a slow transformation that has been ongoing ever since I took that first breath of air. My present state of being is quite peaceful because I feel in touch with my true essence. My true essence has nothing to do with who gave birth to me or who was my earthly father, but rather it is the awakening to the DIVINE ESSENCE that lies within us all. What is it that we ALL HAVE IN COMMON? THE LORD IS THE MAKER OF US ALL!
You see, my true name is more precious then silver or gold because my true name is GOD’S SON. Now I might be son number 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 but it doesn’t matter because anyway you want to define me I still have the same DNA as SON number ONE.
I know that when I leave this clay body behind that I won’t be taking with me anything that I collected while on this journey as far as material things, but what I will be taking with me is the knowledge of WHO I AM.
I AM THE CHILD OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.
If that’s the only thing I learned on this journey it is enough. I believe I will live again in some other body. Maybe an earthly one or some other that I can’t even imagine, but in either case I am excited to face what is next because I know a LOVE that has, does, and will always be what defines who I really am.
I get up each new day and feel the warmth of this LOVE giving me strength to face whatever the day may hold. I am not afraid. Even in the midst of all the chaos that is present in the current human race I still feel great joy because I KNOW who WE really are. I know that every last one of us is a CHILD OF UNCONDITIONAL LOVE and sooner or later each separate person will GET IT and when that finally happens the earth will sing a new song and great JOY will fill all that IS.
Rom 8:18-19
I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us.
The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed.
My call to all my fellow travelers is to RELAX and wake up to who you really are. Being in touch with your true essence is the most important knowledge you will ever know.
I don’t wish for people to know peace. I wish for them to know who they really are and then peace will be their’s for a multitude of lifetimes.
“anyway you want to define me I still have the same DNA as SON number ONE… it is the awakening to the DIVINE ESSENCE that lies within us all…”
Cliff, that is so right on. I also am finally awaking to this reality. I feel as if I have awakened already – yet I think I’m only beginning to awaken because there’s so much of who we are, and Who He is, to grasp. But it’s awesome to wake up every day and look beyond these uncertain times we live in and connect with the reality that the ‘CEO of the Universe’ is our Daddy. And we are SONS having His full attention focused on us at all times whether we are aware of Him or not. I also like to remind myself that He invites me to relate to Him as Friend, Companion, Lover… I sense there are so many ways He is eager to intimately and affectionately interact with us if only we stay open and available to that DIVINE ESSENCE that lies within us.
Hi guys,
Just want to let you know that John has finally convinced me to start my own blog. I literally just started but you are more then welcomed to visit.
Who knows, maybe we’ll meet againg this summer.
Have a great day.
Denise, I’m glad to see you out there in the blogging world and will be looking foward to viewing your thoughts. At 57 I’m always looking for ways to stay healthy in body and spirit.
Tobby, Isn’t it wonderful to think of our awesome creator as “Daddy”?
Cliff, it is indescribably awesome to realize that identity in Him being our Abba Father, Papa, Daddy, and to know that I’m no orphan or stepchild but I’m bone of His bone. Simultaneously there’s other equally relevant aspects to this identity in Him that I am fascinated with. He’s more than just Father and I don’t know how to convey this without it sounding convoluted – it really is wonderful – that there’s that relational identity of groom / bride going on here… He invites me to ‘come away with Him’ and savor the secret intimacies that lovers imbibe in. I’m overwhelmed with the realization that He woos and romances us, that He finds pleasure in showering us with affection, affirmation, comfort, cherishing. So not only are we the ‘child of unconditional love’ as you said, we are the object of His affection in so many beautiful ways. When we only identify with Him as Lord, Master, Ruler, King, etc. (as I was so programmed by religion to do), we diminish the essence of His passion to truly KNOW us so we might conceive (as Adam ‘knew’ eve and she conceived). I believe He intends to be so intimate with us there’s nothing separating us… this may sound crude but it makes me wanna ‘get naked’! I want Him to rip off every shred of religious garments or any other thing I might have cloaked myself in so He can have His way with me. Maybe I’ve had too much caffeine this morning but I think you get my drift!
Toby, I understand exactly what you are saying and agree that we must let go of all that we have covered ourself with on this journey and learn to just be and in that being we will feel safe.
In my baptism I was given His name. He (the Lord) adopted me.
He is now my essence. I belong to Him. And He loves me in my successes and my failures…through thick and thin…my Dad will be there.
That, to me, is very comforting!
Thanks for the great reminder, Cliff!
– Steve Martin
Cliff, this is such an encouraging post, pointing as it does to the reality of who we are, if we but open our spiritual eyes. That name you speak of is a nature – the nature of ‘the lamb’. Ours by inheritance. Eyes are being opened to the choice we have to live from this nature characterized by love and non-retaliation or remain in our old mind-sets, striving to ‘make ourselves better’. We cannot live two lives at once and the choice is ours. Circumstances help to push us into a corner to make us face up to this choice, but ultimately the only way to go that’s going to help others in their dire need, is to choose to follow the lamb, this nature within us. Living from that place and following those deep feelings will bring about what Paul wrote about – though the outer man is decaying, the inner man is renewed daily, because if we can see it with our physical eyes, then it’s transitory or passing away. If it has a beginning and an end, then it has no reality so it is the world of illusion. Only the things of the spirit (unable to be seen) are eternal.
“If it has a beginning and an end, then it has no reality so it is the world of illusion. Only the things of the spirit (unable to be seen) are eternal” …once again, Audrey, I have to say – I’ll have what you’re having. Your words resonate with me. Thank you!
Toby, I like your definition of an illusion “If it has a beginning and an end.” Our reality is has no beginning or an end and it is also a reality that can not be threatened.
“NOTHING REAL CAN BE THREATENED, NOTHING UNREAL EXISTS, AND THEREIN LIES THE PEACE OF GOD.”
From a Course in Miricles
Steve Martin,
I know that your baptism was an important mark in your journey but you were marked in God’s mind long before even the beginning of beginnings: He has always been your essence and always will be even during those times past, present, & future when you don’t recognize it.
Eph 1:3-4
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
KJV
Thanks Cliff!
I know you are right.
But I also know that I was given the official adoption papers on my baptism day. God made it official on that day in New York some 52 years ago on a snowy March day.
He acted in real time, in my real personal history…for me.
I think that is why He commanded that we be baptised.
So we could have a real moment in time that we could look to for assurance, whenever we need it.
If I do not get baptised like yourself Steve what happens then..?
Thanks, Cliff… you like Audrey’s words and I like them too!
SteveM, is it possible that the baptism the bible refers to points to what happened on the Cross of Christ? Is it feasible that, as Paul states, all of creation entered the body of Christ on that incredible day, and with him, were all baptized from life, to death, and into a new life? Jesus said that we must be baptized to see the Kingdom of Heaven, and then took it upon himself to insure that we were ALL baptized with him through the work of the Cross. I continue to believe that “what we do” has little value toward redemption, but WHAT HE DID makes all the difference. Jesus also said that we must be “born again”, and thanks to him, WE WERE. We were all baptized from this life and reborn into the next along with him!
I too was baptized in water in ceremony, but I count that for nothing. It was only a symbolic representation of what had already happened. Like a screenplay, it permitted me to act out the reality that I later came to understand. My hope lies in the story of Christ, and the transformation we all experienced with him through his life, death, and resurrection into the Kingdom!
Have joy, Marco. You have been baptized! As have we all! That’s the good news!
Peace
Thanks for the post Cliff! I need this reminder especially in the midst of the stressful exams I’ve had all month long. By the way, have you finished the book about reincarnation yet? I look foward to reading your thoughts about it.
Have joy, Marco. You have been baptized! As have we all! That’s the good news(Bruce)
Hey Bruce, and here I thought the “good news” was the invention of Beer.
Kirra, I’m almost done and hope to speak about it in an upcoming post. One thing I will say is that Christians should be quite cautious about believing their own history because it has been tainted by those who demand that their way is the only way and anyone who trys to point that out could find themselves in great danger. Multitudes of open minded people have given their lives over that last two thousand years just for speaking their mind about the nature of God and how the universe might work.
“I too was baptized in water in ceremony, but I count that for nothing.”
Too bad, Bruce. Because it is not us that does the baptising…but God.
He baptises us. Not the pastor or priest.
When His name is invoked, like Jesus commanded us to do, the Living God shows up.
Jesus never commanded us to do anything where he would not show up in it for us.
Acts 3:38 tells us that we receive the forgiveness of sins and the Holy Spirit in baptism.
Marco,
What happens if you are not baptised?
That’s up to God. Can one not be baptised and be saved? Sure! We allow for that. But we also allow that someone can be baptised and be saved.
Good stuff!!
Baptism means to ‘be immersed’ It’s high time we got thoroughly immersed in that ONE – the spirit within us instead of things that represent him. When you fall in love, you don’t want keepsakes that represent the love you have for each other. NO, you want the REAL thing , that entwining where you really KNOW each other. That is what is being offered to us as the free gift right now. No more of ‘this means that and that means something else’. The wraps are off, we leave all that stuff behind and dive into that immense pool of love that is waiting for us, and let’s make haste because the world needs this more than anything else, and the spirit is waiting to use our mouth our eyes and ears to liberate the nations.
Just a few thoughts, just to add to the great thoughts already given.
Prov 22:1-2
A good name {a good reputation, thus giving a good name} is more desirable than great riches {from someone who had both at the time}; to be esteemed is better than silver or gold. Rich and poor have this in common: The Lord is the Maker of them all.
There is IMHO a point to consider in this verse as pertains to how the Hebrews saw things in ancient times.
Ones “legacy” lived on beyond ones “riches”.
In audience relevant terms the “legacy” attributed to those who trusted in the old covenant system for their own legacy, where sorely disappointed.
The following verses are often attributed to life after death but imho this is a misappropriation of the texts which imo refer to legacy attributed to trust in the old covenant system:
Isa 66:22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, [that] from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Their worm shall never die, refers the perpetuity attached to the historical permanency of the “record”. [And this in audience relevance terms.]
In other words, at the destruction of Jerusalem as foretold by Christ and his apostles (AD 70) those who had trusted in the old system to “save them” or “redeem them” would have seen rather, a historical “fire” of a legacy in front of them. They would go down in history on the wrong side of the truth of the matter. [they were redeemed anyway in Christ, but not from their confidence in the "law". however in audience relevant terms, the "ego" would have seen from egocentric vision a horrible legacy, which is called in scripture the loss of their "soul"]
Such was foretold here:
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and the city that I gave you and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence: {as pertains to trust in the old covenant system, thus audience relevant to that “trust”, that “perspective” that “mindset” that “ego identity”}
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Such was “historical” not “life after postmortem” as such. This historical perspective is mentioned here as well:
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
The smoke of their torment is metaphorical for the historical legacy left behind in audience relevant terms. In historical terms, the worm never dies because it is a permanent legacy.
Here again:
Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come.
Mat 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by [his] fruit.
Mat 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
Mat 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
“neither in the age to come” is historical in perspective and embraces the “legacy” which is left behind in audience relevant terms. Such did not mean that they were not forgive of their “sins” for they were. But history would not forgive them in audience relevant terms. History preserves their deaths as those who lived and then died by the sword. ["if you live by the sword you shall die by the sword" as they thought that the kingdom meant freedom from Rome which was not true, to they pursued this avenue until Rome came and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple]
Thus they in their old covenant legacy “have no rest day or night” [IE historical].
These verses are often interpreted to refer to “eternal security” which they do not! They refer to the demise of the old covenant system of worship and the legacy left behind.
We see this here:
Eze 16:61 Then thou shalt remember thy ways, and be ashamed, when thou shalt receive thy sisters, thine elder and thy younger: and I will give them unto thee for daughters, but not by thy covenant.
Eze 16:62 And I will establish my covenant with thee; and thou shalt know that I [am] the LORD:
Eze 16:63 That thou mayest remember, and be confounded, and never open thy mouth any more because of thy shame, when I am pacified toward thee for all that thou hast done, saith the Lord GOD.
We can see clearly (IMHO) in verse 63 that forgiveness FOR ALL THAT they HAD DONE is independent of the “legacy” and “shame” in question.
So then to be “cast out of” his “presence” speaks of the legacy attributed to confidence in the old covenant system of worship not “eternal security”. And such is audience relevant to the old covenant identity that looked to the then present “holy city” and “temple”.
In conclusion then, it is my view that we can see the “thinking” of an ancient Hebrew when we see a proverb which speaks of a “good name”. And how important “legacy” was to them. How being historically “shamed” must have been seen and why then Jesus and John the baptist spoke in such stern language of “warning”. Fire that could not be quenched, worm that never dies and the sentence of the “himmon valley” [mistranslated hell].
Hope I made some sense
Blessings Barry
In the spirit one could say I get baptised now. As a means of spiritual awareness, not so much as a means to supposed spiritual standing.
I count my physical baptism some 13 years ago as just a part of an event in my life, that perhaps was signifigant at the time, but has over the years come to mean very little to me. My understanding and embracement of God and spirituality, at that time, is nothing more than a shadow to me now, a ghost, a chapter that closed in order for the next.
Grace to you all,
Marco
Marco,
“I count my physical baptism some 13 years ago as just a part of an event in my life, that perhaps was signifigant at the time, but has over the years come to mean very little to me. My understanding and embracement of God and spirituality, at that time, is nothing more than a shadow to me now, a ghost, a chapter that closed in order for the next.”
It is much different for me…and for millions of other Christians.
I am carried along in my baptism and the promised forgiveness therein, all along the journey of my life…the way a boat might carry someone across a stormy sea.
Like Luther said, ‘it is not a one time event that we move away from…but a continual dying and rising.”
Like Luther said, ‘it is not a one time event that we move away from…but a continual dying and rising.”
hey this is good Steve, thanks for sharing it, Luther sure had some good insight sometimes, too bad for his intense hatred towards the jews, enough to have inspired Hitler himself. His bigotry was, ofcourse, backed by scripture and his faith…
oh perhaps even now he is chillin with Hitler in the afterlife reminising on the “good ole days”
anyway, enough of that.
It is different for you yes as it is different for all, including those other millions of Christians you mention, I stand as a Christian with you, without the dogma and doctrines. I stand as a Christian who never needed forgivness from a mythic God in the sky with anger management issues, but as a Christian, abiding in Christ spirit, that embraces an awareness and willingness to forgive. It is this God spirit that forgives through us as we life a life of faith.
We share from our own expirence and that is what makes it so interesting, my expirence does not have to validate yours nor does yours need to validate mine.
Cheers!
I am a bit baffled again, likely due to the fact there are many things I don’t understand because of not being the brightest star out there.
Can we call ourselves Christian if we say we are Christ (Marco in a previous comment)?
Why call ourselves Christian if we do not even believe in God? (A mythic God)
Standing as a Christian that never needed forgiveness appears to me to be a rather self righteous way of looking at ourselves as being Ok without Him? But then if you do not believe in God and believe you are Christ, then I guess that it could be called the most ultimate of self righteousness that I have ever heard.
I am always somewhat baffled by what Marco writes here as I have stated in times past, and sometimes fail to understand why someone does not pick up on the fact he says “we are Christ”???? Does anyone else that regularly comments here believe we are Christ???
I can plainly see that Steve Martin is Catholic and I have no problem with that although that is not to say that I agree with all he says. That is not my concern.
What concerns me is that I am sure the large majority of people that comment and visit here have no idea what Marco says, however maybe its only me. The only thing I gather from what he says is that he does not believe in God, he believes he is Christ, which of course leads to the most extreme case of self righteousness I have heard so far on this site.
As I have stated in the past on the very few comments I have made here in the past, I am just not the type of person that tries to be critical of others nor do I think we should all believe the same. I just find it baffling by some of the comments on here that are seemingly ignored by those that administer this site.
We all have our own ideas and thoughts about God and that is to be respected. But when we have comments that says there is no God and that we are Christ and it is not addressed, then I am really at a loss to understand what this site is actually all about.
Sam,
I’m a Lutheran.
Sam,
You make some good points.
Universalism is on the rise, and that is not what Jesus was all about.
He said He would divide people. That means there will be two camps…those in Christ…and those that are not.
Marco,
So true! Luther said a lot of things, stupid things that a 16th century German might say. He was a real sinner…no doubt about it.
But he said a lot of wonderful things as well. We owe much to him and his courage in squaring off with THE POWER in the world at that time.
All of Luther’s theology revolved around the cross of Christ and what He has done for sinners.
No more self-centered “religion” for Luther. He had his fill of that with 14 years in the monastery.
Our experiences are great. They are just not central in our relationship to God. Jesus the Christ was, is, and always will be central in our relationship to God…often in spite of our experiences.
Thanks Marco!
My apologies Steve about thinking you were a Catholic. Not that it makes any difference to me what you are. Shows you what assumptions can do.
Sam,
No biggie. No apology necessary.
Many people get the two denoninations confused. Think we are very similar.
Our theologies couldn’t be more different.
Lutheranism is the most radical expression of the freedom of the gospel that I have ever seen.
It is probably held in the least esteem. It is St. Pauls radical doctrine. it wasn’t popular then…and it’s not popular now.
One of the reasons why I believe it must be true!
Sam, First, let me thank you for your comments and allow me to try to answer your question. As one of the admin’s of this site I feel no need to challenge or defend Marco’s comments. This site is about freedom to speak your mind and also the freedom to challenge someone if you feel the need to.
For me personally, I understand exactly where Marco is coming from. When a person says “they believe in God”, What does that really mean? There are 33,000 different denominations of christianity alone that can’t agree on that one simple question. God is only a word we use that can’t possibly describe the essence of this energy in which we all live in and have our being. Marco, like many of us are sick and tired of the small God described by religion and he is learning like all of us to open up his heart to sounds, smells, tastes, sights, and senses of God that fill everything we are experiencing in this body of clay.
Cliff,
I think it is the BIG GOD that wants us to recognize Him by the proper name.
You wouldn’t be a little guy if you didn’t want your kids calling you Tom, or Dick, or Harry…when your name is Cliff. You would correct them until they got it right. That doesn’t make God small in my opinion.
Sam
In regards to Marco
Im not sure he says he is Christ. I think he says he is “in” Christ.
Tifortat, this is a copy of what Marco wrote on Feb 17, 2009 on his comment on What Keeps Us From Seeing Clearly…and I copied what he said:
“Abide in me” resonates. We are Christ.
He may say we are “in Christ” in other places but what I was referring to is the above quote and there is no mistaking that he is saying “we, and of course he as well, are Christ”. I am not sure what that means but I was just quoting what he said.
Please go back and read for yourself.
Sam
Sorry about that, I thought you were referring to this post. Geez and here I thought I was the only one on here who thought he was God.
Quote: (Steve)
Sam,
You make some good points.
Universalism is on the rise, and that is not what Jesus was all about.
He said He would divide people. That means there will be two camps…those in Christ…and those that are not.
End quote.
Steve, (and everyone) a few thoughts if you don’t mind.
What Jesus was talking about is dividing covenant people. That being the person of that identity and affiliation. That “trust”. All of the “dividing” taking place in the NT is associated with covenant. No where is this more evident than in the book of Hebrews. “that which is old is ready to vanish away”
Those outworking the new covenant by following “the faith of Christ Jesus” would be saved from the ending of the old covenant. Those still intrenched in the old would suffer the let down of the old when Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed, (AD 70). Such a “destruction” meant being saved in the spirit but destroyed in the flesh (human potential attached to types and figures, like the “temple made with hands” and “circumcision done with hands”). Those that trusted in such died in that identity when they “came to nothing” that being covenantally, because no more would the “voice of the bride” come from there (the old). As old covenant people they “died” even if they lived through the changeover.
Those who followed Christ died with Christ (baptism) to that age, in anticipation of the end. They were therefore not hurt by the “second death”. They were putting off the “old man” (old covenant man) and putting on the new man (Christ, the new covenant man).
[There are only two men, Adam and Christ]
This was there soteriological response to the promise of the eminent end of the age (eschatology).
It really does make all the sense in the world when we put things in there historically setting instead of our present day “church” teachings.
Universalism on the other hand deals with being “saved” so you can go to heaven. That is NEVER in the bible.
Barry
Barry,
“What Jesus was talking about is dividing covenant people.”
Jesus didn’t say that. He said He would divide families, He would bring division…over Himself. (Luke 12:53)
Hey Steve:
Luk 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:
Luk 12:52 For from henceforth there shall be five in one house divided, three against two, and two against three.
Luk 12:53 The father shall be divided against the son, and the son against the father; the mother against the daughter, and the daughter against the mother; the mother in law against her daughter in law, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
Jhn 9:20 HIS PARENTS answered them and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind:
Jhn 9:21 But by what means he now seeth, we know not; or who hath opened his eyes, we know not: he is of age; ask him: he shall speak for himself.
Jhn 9:22 These [words] spake HIS PARENTS, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man did confess that he was Christ, he should be PUT OUT OF THE SYNAGOGUE.
Jhn 9:23 Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him.
Jhn 12:42 Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess [him], lest they should be put out of the synagogue:
Jhn 12:43 For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.
Act 26:11 And I punished them oft in every synagogue, and compelled [them] to blaspheme; and being exceedingly mad against them, I persecuted [them] even unto strange cities.
The source behind this division and perecuction was Covenantal.
It is such throughout the NT.
Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren {the Judaizers} unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
Gal 2:5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.
Gal 2:11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
Gal 2:13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
This is the source of the division:
Hbr 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let [them] slip.
Hbr 2:2 For if the word spoken by angels {Old covenant} was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;
Hbr 2:3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard [him]; {New Covenant}
Hbr 2:4 God also bearing [them] witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?
Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come {New Covenant world}, whereof we speak.
The point being, in Adam all died but in Christ all were made alive. There are only 2 covenantal heads. One brought in death (Universally) the other life (Universally). The NT time period was the time of transition awaiting the destruction of the holy city and the temple made with hands.
Hbr 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the WORLD TO COME, whereof we speak.
Hbr 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] READY TO VANISH AWAY.
Hbr 9:8 the Holy Spirit this signifying, that the way into the holy place hath not yet been made manifest, WHILE THE FIRST TABERNACLE IS YET STANDING; (ASV)
Hbr 13:14 For here have we NO CONTINUING CITY, but we seek one to come.
Jer 23:39 Therefore, behold, I, even I, will utterly forget you, and I will forsake you, and THE CITY THAT I GAVE YOU and your fathers, [and cast you] out of my presence:
Jer 23:40 And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon THY HOLY CITY, to FINISH THE TRANSGRESSION, and to MAKE AN END OF SINS, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to BRING IN EVERLASTING RIGHTEOUSNESS, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
This speaks not of “sins” as we think of it but the end of the law, the end of the old covenant.
This is very, consistent throughout the biblical message.
Of course, Christ is the focus of this division. Christ is the last Adam.
The old covenant people were saved not in the “flesh” (human potential through the law) but in the “spirit” (through the power of God) through the ending of the old covenant. They were thus then no longer under law.
1Ti 4:9 This [is] a faithful saying and worthy of all acceptation.
1Ti 4:10 For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
1Ti 4:11 These things command and teach.
Those that had believed were not hurt by the ending of the old covenant so they were thus especially saved being not hurt by the second death.
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but ALSO for [the sins of] the WHOLE WORLD.
Blessings,
Barry
Barry,
Thanks for your wonderful explanation.
So, some believe (trust in Him – the New Covenant, “given and shed for you”) and some don’t.
All are forgiven, through the New Covenant of Jesus’ blood on the cross…but all are not saved, for all do not trust. (Jesus says, “depart from me I never knew you)
Trust comes by faith (a gift of God) which many men and women reject. Romans 9. God gives some faith…and some not.
It is all very baffling…but then I go back to the Bible…and it is what God says it is.
I guess He’s still in charge.
Good stuff, Barry!
Thanks!
– Steve
All are forgiven, through the New Covenant of Jesus’ blood on the cross…but all are not saved, for all do not trust. (Jesus says, “depart from me I never knew you)(Steve)
I find this idea so baffling to me. Why would I actually give a crap if G-d forgives me if ultimately he wont invite me in unless I do as Im told. This idea of Jesus on the cross is actually useless unless “I” make the decision to be saved. In other words Jesus so called suffering was a waste for all those who dont believe. Damn thats a lot of people, like, 2/3 of the world. So much for it being “Good News” when you know most of your neighbours and family are going to be shunned. In my view that “belief” system is pretty depressing.
“Why would I actually give a crap if G-d forgives me if ultimately he wont invite me in unless I do as Im told.”
“Doing what you are told” is not the thing…since NONE of us do what He tells us to do. NONE.
Our decision is not it either. Our decision is useless since we are dead in our sins and trespasses. Dead men make no ‘decision’ for a Living God.
He loves us and forgives us. That’s the Good news!
If you believe it…then you’ve got it!
What’s so depressing about that?
If you believe it…then you’ve got it(Steve)
What the heck do you think “belief” is. Its an action. I have to do it. It doesnt just magically occur. It is a physiological process that I need to activate. If it is G-d that does it then what the h-ll is the purpose of me living? By your own words(which you seem to quote from the bible), Unless I believe, then Im on the outs with the Big Guy. Jesus/G-d doesnt factor in ‘UNTIL I’ choose to believe. If they make it happen for me then I would just be a robot. If I dont make the decision then why worry about “believing”. Man do you make this stuff up as you go, or what?
There was a difference between being saved from the ending of the law and being saved from the law.
To have been saved from the ending of the law then one would have needed to enter into the transitional body of Christ (like the ark during the flood) and put off the old covenant man prior to the ending of the old covenant.
To be saved from the law was ultimately universal IE “savior of all”.
And “end of sins” was just that an “end of sins” whether one believed it or not.
The good news at that time was that the old covenant was about to end (the result of the fullness of the kingdom of God coming in).
The problem involved is that the religious leaders didn’t want their control over other peoples lives to end. They could not stand the idea that they would be no more acceptable to God because of their religion than anyone else. Universal Reconciliation is a threat to the religious mind.
By and large, much the same today actually, the difference being that what we have today is not sanctioned through types and figures of things yet to come. So it has no validity.
So there were people divided over the good new because some did not want universal reconciliation.
As far as the “law” or the “old covenant” was concerned, all were “saved” because it ended.
As far as the “ego” that was attached to the old covenant, that “image” that “idol” was not saved. The old could not get into the new. It had no inheritance.
We do not now become “inheritors” nor do we enter into covenant with or without belief. We are rather the “benefactors” of the New Covenant.
We at present “realize” salvation and benefit in this life, in living in a state of love consciousness.
Barry
Hey Tit for tat,
I’ts all in the bible. Open and read.
Stevo
Oh I have.
John 12:32 (English Standard Version)
“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself.”
Emphasis on ALL was me.
TitforTat,
You have nothing to worry about then.
The thing I can’t figure out then, is why the cross?
Why go through all that…if everyone was going to be saved anyway?
love n grace, and the cost to proclaim em.
believing is not a requirement, believing is a priveledge (in whatever ones interpretation happens to be)
Why go through all that…if everyone was going to be saved anyway?(Steve)
Now theres a good question, which leads into the idea of “Good News”. Most people who are religious(Christian) believe they are inherently Bad, the idea(purpose) behind the cross is that they are forgiven and Loved. No more hoops to jump through(they know they cant be perfect), but in this one act someone(God) shows that he Loves them and will take care of them. What a wonderful story. Ever notice how the story of “having to believe or else you go to hell” makes people feel. It creates fear and division and despair if youre on the wrong side. Thats definately not “Good News” for the majority of people. I guess its up to each individual to decide which story they want to “Believe”.
Steve said,
“The thing I can’t figure out then, is why the cross?”
Forgive me Steve for butting in.
What the cross did is “buy back”.
Bought back from “sin” that is.
Sin is not doing something wrong. Sin is the product of the “self perceived self under the validity of types and figures that were yet to come”. An “ego-image” of the old covenant (consciousness).
Let us make man in our image. But Man (Adam actually) wanted to make his own image. Hence, “Sin” hence the whole of the old covenant.
What Christ means historically is that there is no more covenantal validity to our self defined self. IE. WE DO NOT OWN OURSELVES FOR OURSELVES.
We are God defined not ego defined. Realizing this brings us peace, harmony, and promotes love consciousness in general.
Such does not mean that we try to kill the ego. For we all see ourselves in our own unique way which too can evolve. But we know that we do not have the final say so. So we don’t have to Prove anything about ourselves, or defend our “pride” and such. We say that God has the final say so and the Cross does itself say in principle who we all are. Loved children who do not have the final say so on who they are as children of God.
Hope this made some sense,
Barry
Barry,
Thanks for that. What you say is very helpful.
I am always at a loss, though, when people say that “everyone will be saved”.
God would not have had to die on a cross for that. He would’ve just said “everyone is in”, and avoided all that trouble, pain and death.
The death was the atonement for our sin, the resurrection was God’s stamp of approval on that atonement and forgiveness that Jesus wanted for us.
And then by faith is that accessed for the believer.
That’s what the Bible says…and I believe it.
Thanks very much!
– Steve
The death of Jesus was not for sin – he was not a sin offering. That was dead blood that fell from the cross, and that can’t ’save’ anybody. What he did was to pass on to us his SPIRIT LIFE. What he did on the cross was to take our HUMANITY with his humanity and put it to death so that we can now live from our true selves, which is REALITY. We cannot live two lives at once. We either exist centered on ourselves in a world that revolves around us or we live from that LIFE that he passed over to us. The CHRIST life. This also is his ‘return’, because as people ‘wake up’ from the dream-time that has existed since the casting out of Eden, (when eyes were opened to an unreal world) the promises that Jesus made will come about. We will recognize the Christ spirit in each other – that corporate Elohim company, kings and priests to the King of kings, born not of flesh and blood but of the incorruptible seed
Audrey,
I guess I was mistaken.
I was always taught, from the Bible, that His death was to pay for our sin…all of it…for the whole world’s sin.
And that He forgave us from the cross.
And that God gives us faith (as a gift) that we might believe and be justified by God’s grace through that faith.
And that in this life we will continue to sin, but that we have Christ in us also. And that Christ in us is the truth about us even though we do not live the way that Jesus wants us to live.
We are forgiven. Declared so, by Jesus.
That’s how I was taught.
Thanks, Audrey!
Steve, I was taught the same, but that thinking doesn’t ring true when we put it along with what Jesus said. He said ‘the Kingdom of God is in you’. In the Kingdom there is no sin, no falling short, we are ONE with him, able to do the Father’s will on earth (in our bodies) as it is already done in Heaven (our hearts). This is rest indeed.
Audrey,
I agree… for those who have faith.
Since the Kingdom will not be realized here…yet…there is still sin.
Believers still sin. Romans 7 and our own lives are proof enough of that fact.
But sin no longer has dominion over us. (Romans 6)
So, we are free. Free to live, love, laugh, and cry and live out our lives in service to our neighbors, without worrying about our conduct, or pleasing a beetle-browed diety.
As you say, that is rest indeed.
Thanks Audrey!
– Steve
Hey Steve and Audrey,
Steve you are correct, Christ died for the sins of the world. This however is fulfilled and sin is just in our minds.
Steve, believers do not still sin. The strength of sin is the law and the law has passed away. Romans chapter 7 is Paul speaking from the transition of going from sin consciousness to freedom from the law. A very misunderstood chapter.
Audrey, just because “sin” is a “construct” of the ego-man does not mean that Christ did not die for it.
What you are doing is mixing soteriology and personal experience.
One does not have second coming personally. One has a realization of the second coming. These are not the same. Christ died and returned. That is historical. Ones realization of these truths experiencially is “enlightenment”. It is important to separate the two because in doing so we can see that God is working in human history toward an end. If we make everything “personal” then we fail to see God’s continued work in His Creation. THIS IS HIS CREATION. And he said, Let us make man in our image.
The Christ came into the “world of sin” to be an offering for sin. Such is so prevalent in the biblical text that to discard it is to discard the whole. There would be no further benefit to even bring up the subject of “Christ” in any way.
Just because “sin” is a lower level of consciousness does not mean that it was not a necessary stepping stone in the evolution of consciousness. By claiming that the Christ did not die for sin you IMO err greatly.
Types and figures are not merely “falsehoods” in their appropriate time. They were shadows of a coming truth that is not clearly seen. The law was not false or untrue. It was a hazy reflection of a greater truth viewed through a lower level of consciousness.
They knew that God did not dwell in temples made with hands. But they could not see beyond the shadow. Christ “fulfilled” the shadow. In doing so he came into the “world of sin” and took on sin. This is what the “children” needed so it is what the Father gave.
So basically then, I understand what you are saying quite well. But IMHO too quick a conclusion is being drawn from the biblical text to make the point.
When you bring up a child you have to sit down and play with the child on its own level. That does not make childhood “wrong” or “untrue” it makes it a necessary developmental stage. That’s what the bible is saying about the “law” and the “world (of sin)”.
The New Testament time was the time when the transition from childhood to adulthood was being made “historically”. So now we can experiencially “realize” these truths and impact ongoing human history.
It’s not just about us “personally” but about His Creation as a whole. This is why we must not discard the soteriological facts simply because of acquired experiential realizations.
Any more than we would discard our entire childhood now that we are adults. We leave it behind but we do not discard it.
Hope you understand what I’m saying.
Blessings, Barry